Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

[Papa]

Q100H 328 36V front hub purchased (12/2017).
AKM17092301002 / AAD3616A-H / QC-PASS round sticker stating "16 Inches" (white/green)

Ratio: 8.139:1 / 2 stage compound

Gears: motor 15t / first stage planets 36t / second stage planets 23t / final ring 78t
Planetary gear composition: Nylon

Stator laminate width: 17.55mm
Stator laminates: 49 stack count: 0.35mm thickness each.
Stator winding coils: 18
Stator ID: 53.46mm
Stator OD: 89.1 mm

Winding: 24 AWG
Winding Turns: Unknown

Rotor core: Laminated
Rotor: 16 magnets - 8 pole pairs
Rotor OD: 52.4mm
Magnet: 21.25mm L, 7.75mm W, 2.85mm H (approx)
Magnet type: unknown

Halls: 3, 120 degree - adjustable

*** MORE IMAGES & DATA TO BE ADDED WHEN TIME PERMITS ***

[zro-1]

This is great info! It'll come in really handy when I have to change the hub shell on my 260 rpm Q100H rear. If you'd like any comparison specs when I open mine up let me know and I'll share it here.

[Buk___]

Q100H 328 front hub purchased (12/2017).
AKM17092301002 / AAD3616A-H / QC-PASS round sticker stating "16 Inches" (white/green)

Ratio: 8.139:1 - Gears - / motor 15t / first stage planets 36t / second stage planets 23t / final ring 78t

Laminates: 49 stack count - 0.35mm thickness each


*** MORE IMAGES & DATA TO BE ADDED WHEN TIME PERMITS ***

Has anyone got similar information and or images for the (recent) Q128H?

[Papa]

If you'd like any comparison specs when I open mine up let me know and I'll share it here.

Sure

Has anyone got similar information and or images for the (recent) Q128H?

Good question - I haven't really looked.

[Buk___]

Good question - I haven't really looked.

I have. I believe I read every thread/post that mentions Q128H on this site. And damn there are a lot of them; even if you exclude those where the mention is in someone sig.

But the picture that emerges is very confused, because there seem to have been at least two major changes to the motor over time.

I was going to take mine apart and photograph/measure before I put it on my bike; but then I got caught up in wanting to ride it and I never got around to it.

Maybe when the weather warms up, if nobody posts before.

[Papa]

Good question - I haven't really looked.

.... But the picture that emerges is very confused, because there seem to have been at least two major changes to the motor over time.

Same story with the Q100/Q100H x6. You have my simpathy.

[motomech]

Good question - I haven't really looked.

I have. I believe I read every thread/post that mentions Q128H on this site. And damn there are a lot of them; even if you exclude those where the mention is in someone sig.

But the picture that emerges is very confused, because there seem to have been at least two major changes to the motor over time.

I was going to take mine apart and photograph/measure before I put it on my bike; but then I got caught up in wanting to ride it and I never got around to it.

Maybe when the weather warms up, if nobody posts before.

What do you want to know?
Although I have used every variant of the Q100, I haven't used the Q128. But I do know that it was revised to have more power handling and efficiency about two years ago. And I suspect that taking it apart and measuring everything(which I did w/ 3 variants of the Q100 a couple of years ago.;
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... ilit=q100c ) will not reveal anything of consequence. This is because I believe the changes are in the power of the magnets. The only true unanswered question concerning the Cutes is; What is the difference between the the Q100H and the standard Q100?
I am of the opinion that the winds on all Q100's are the same and the only differences is the internal gearing. This is based on the work I did comparing the measurements of the observed overall gear ratios to the rated/measured motor speeds. When I did this, I found an almost perfect 1 to 1 correlation.
If one accepts this premise, the only difference between the Q100H and a standard Q100 of the same motor speed has to be related to the strength of the magnets.
Since I view the Q128 as a larger Q100, this is what I believe was done to the Q128 during it's revision.

[Buk___]

What do you want to know?

I'd like to know:
What the gear ratio is. I've seen numbers ranging from 13.something through 16:1.
The dimensions of the planet gears. Tooth counts, PCD and width. Bearing size. (Most of this I could probably derive from an hi res picture.)
The diameter and width of the rotor.
The size (and ideally the quality) of the magnets.
The thickness of the laminations.
The wire gauge and turn count of the windings.
Y or delta.

[Papa]

What do you want to know?

This thread primarily focuses on the Q100H (the one shown above) that is currently littering my bench, and the detailed modifications I perform. After weeks of wading through 'assumptions' and unverified information, I just decided that the only way to accurately answer the questions important to me... was to buy one.

The only true unanswered question concerning the Cutes is; What is the difference between the the Q100H and the standard Q100?
I am of the opinion that the winds on all Q100's are the same and the only differences is the internal gearing.

and two sentances later, you follow-up with....

If one accepts this premise, the only difference between the Q100H and a standard Q100 of the same motor speed has to be related to the strength of the magnets.

Does the following thread ring any bells (and note the date)?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =cute+lams

The linked thread above seems to suggest that most, (if not all) Cute motors had 0.5mm laminations prior to Aug of 2015. But my Q100H (image #5) has 0.35mm laminations. To the best of my haphazard research, the Q100H was initially introduced sometime in the 4th quarter of 2013. So my question to you motormech Is,.... could a laminate change (if it even occured), be the 30% 'mystery performance boost'?

You've stated many times of disassembling many/most of the Q100/Q100H variants, but I've not read mention of any laminate changes or measurements in any of your previous posts. Please correct me if I mistakenly error.

[Papa]

Q100H Sprag Clutch modification - See images 6a and 6b above. I used the original rollers and the original, trimmed-to-length springs. Then I used three each, 0.156" (3.96mm) diameter ball bearings (heisted from a bicycle headset bearing). This mod places a ball bearing between the roller and the spring, hopefully eliminating future spring wear & failure. Any and ALL internal screws I renew w/stainless, and use a threadlocker such as Loctite.

I did this modification ONLY to prevent future spring damage, causing metal particles floating in the motor's lubricant.

NOTE: A number of 'hot rodding' Cute owners have experienced clutch slippage or failures with these mini's, usually when feeding them upwards of 2-3 time their designed wattage. That's cool, but please bare-in-mind... I personally, would much prefer an occasional but predictable clutch slippage... than expensive planetary gear replacement.

[zro-1]

That's a pretty sweet mod of the clutch springs.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you mention the motor lubricant. Do you just mean the grease on the gears, or are you planning on filling this with ferro-fluid? Also, would the bearings just spin against the springs, or would they just glide against the clutch rollers? Or a little of both? I guess in either case friction would be reduced.

[Buk___]

Q100H Sprag Clutch modification - See images 6a and 6b above. I used the original rollers and the original, trimmed-to-length springs. Then I used three each, 0.156" (3.96mm) diameter ball bearings (heisted from a bicycle headset bearing). This mod places a ball bearing between the roller and the spring, hopefully eliminating future spring wear & failure. Any and ALL internal screws I renew w/stainless, and use a threadlocker such as Loctite.

I did this modification ONLY to prevent future spring damage, causing metal particles floating in the motor's lubricant.

NOTE: A number of 'hot rodding' Cute owners have experienced clutch slippage or failures with these mini's, usually when feeding them upwards of 2-3 time their designed wattage. That's cool, but please bare-in-mind... I personally, would much prefer an occasional but predictable clutch slippage... than expensive planetary gear replacement.

That's a simple, neat and cost effective mod. I imagine -- without any evidence -- the way the springs get broken is, the top coil snags on the roller which twists them and they get crushed as the power takes up. Your mod effectively prevents that, and also contains the entire spring within the drilled hole stopping it from twisting.

It's hard to tell from the pics -- even blown up -- but you have a good degree of confidence that the relative diameters of these balls and the springs will prevent them (the balls) jumping loose?

Also, the springs are asymmetric end to end. One end the coil is just cut (which is unusual) and the other has a couple of tighter wound, finishing coils. Presumably you have the 'finished' end contacting the balls?

(A random thought: wouldn't it be nice if these geared hub motors had a small lever that manually disabled that clutch. When riding, it could give regen, but if your batteries are flat, or you just want to ride without the motor, a quick flip of the lever and the clutch does its job.)

[Papa]

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you mention the motor lubricant. Do you just mean the grease on the gears, or are you planning on filling this with ferro-fluid?

A synthetic based oil, but still undecided which one. Buk___ describes the spring problem quite accurately and eloquently below.

That's a simple, neat and cost effective mod. I imagine -- without any evidence -- the way the springs get broken is, the top coil snags on the roller which twists them and they get crushed as the power takes up. Your mod effectively prevents that, and also contains the entire spring within the drilled hole stopping it from twisting.

It's hard to tell from the pics -- even blown up -- but you have a good degree of confidence that the relative diameters of these balls and the springs will prevent them (the balls) jumping loose?

Absolutely. The ball bearings are approximately 50% exposed. I don' t have the exact numbers at-hand right now, but can assure you that the ball bearing's OD is slightly larger than the spring OD, and mere fractions smaller than the spring's cavity ID. Also, do to the diameter of the ball bearing, there's simply insufficient clearance for it to escape the cavity (the roller requires removal first). Likewise, the ball bearing prevents the spring from escaping.

Assembling is relatively painless: Start by inserting a spring in it's cavity, Then simply drop a ball bearing next to the end of the spring, Using a small flat blade screwdriver, maneuver the ball bearing to the end of the spring, then simply coax the pair into the cavity. Maintain pressure and with a free hand, drop the roller in place behind the screwdiver. Remove screwdriver.

Also, the springs are asymmetric end to end. One end the coil is just cut (which is unusual) and the other has a couple of tighter wound, finishing coils. Presumably you have the 'finished' end contacting the balls?

Yes. I would have much preferred unmolested new, but was repeatedly unsuccessful finding any locally. I plan a second disassembling after testing, so hopefully I'll have suitable replacements on hand. When I locate replacements, I'll post P/N's and retailer.

Images are yet another issue - flash doesn't mesh well with shinny objects. I do usually take multiples of the same setting, so will make an effort to fix or replace the crappy ones.

[Buk___]

Images are yet another issue - flash doesn't mesh well with shinny objects.

Indeed. You either need a diffuser, or a (off camera) flash you can bounce off the ceiling or similar.

[zro-1]

Just put a piece of printer paper over the flash and it'll make a good diffuser

[Papa]

Added Hall PCB image - Updated Specifications

[Papa]

Uploaded image #7 - LH housing mod.

[Papa]

1.). Paired OEM 18g phase leads w/same to slightly boost phase amp capacity.
2.). Installed LM-35 thermister to monitor motor temperature.
3.). Drilled & tapped housing for drain/refill port. - (size 5mm). This allows both complete draining and precise refill level.
4.). I still need to do 5 minutes worth of lathe work to the LH axle half for O-ring install.

I'm on handheld so images will need to wait.

[Papa]

Stator Laminate - Q100 ver Q100H

The link below dated 4/2012, shows the innards of a Q100 (rear). Using one of the six 4mm X 0.70mm housing screws for side-by-side reference, the width of a single laminate can be estimated.

13 (threads) x 0.7 (pitch) = 9.1
9.1÷18 (laminates) = 0.505mm thickness

http://cyclurba.fr/forum/371170/moteur- ... &pageprec=

[Allex]

NOTE: A number of 'hot rodding' Cute owners have experienced clutch slippage or failures with these mini's, usually when feeding them upwards of 2-3 time their designed wattage. That's cool, but please bare-in-mind... I personally, would much prefer an occasional but predictable clutch slippage... than expensive planetary gear replacement.

Yeah thats me, it mostly slips when I jump of sidewalks on full throttle. I thought that the motor was defect but I guess not when reading the above!
Using it at 36V20A

[zro-1]

This is probably more of a theoretical question, but would installing stiffer springs when doing the ball bearing mod cause less potential clutch slippage? Or would that just introduce the possibility of clutch drag causing wear and making rolling resistance worse?

[Papa]

This is probably more of a theoretical question, but would installing stiffer springs when doing the ball bearing mod cause less potential clutch slippage? Or would that just introduce the possibility of clutch drag causing wear and making rolling resistance worse?

Unless you plan on feeding higher wattage, I'd probably discourage increasing spring tension. It's relatively easy to go back in and make changes, if necessary. That said, when I shortened the OEM clutch springs, I only removed approx 0.156" to accommodate the 0,156" diameter of the ball bearing. However,...

...when a coil spring is shorten by eliminating coils, overall spring tension increases.

So I could have shortened the springs even more - and may after testing. (I'm still looking for suitable replacements).

[Papa]

BTW.. When you reassemble the hub, I would strongly encourage using anti-seize compound (available at automotive parts retailers) on the aluminum cover-to-housing threads.

[zro-1]

Great tip! Thank you. I wouldn't thought of doing that. I'll be sure I get on anti-seize compound on that cover.

I have been considering replacing all the philips-head screws with allen-heads and using a light thread lock on them. Something about this motor being put together with philips-head screws just bothers me.

[motomech]

I replaced the screws in one of my motors w/ Allen head screws and it was a mistake. The Allen wrench is so small that it wants to bend before applying any real torque.
I best way to get the screws out is to use a hand-held impact driver w/ a good bit and replace any of the Phillips screws that start to get buggered up.
The cover on the rear motors can be a tuff nut because the force of the free wheel/cassette tightens the cover on the housing.