Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by amberwolf » Feb 09 2018 10:23pm

The first Fusin geared hubs I saw used philips heads, but later versions used allen heads.

The main disadvantage of philips is it's really easy to strip out the head if you use the wrong size driver and/or it's too tight (or siezed), and really hard to then get the screw out with normal tools you'd have laying around. (I happen to have a stripped-screw remover for computer case stuff that worked when one of my Fusin's screws did that, but most people won't).

An allen head is not as easy to damage, and if you *do* happen to do so, you can usually still grip the outside of the head and turn it with pliers, if space permits where the screw is located.

As Motomech notes, if you have to use allens that are tiny, the wrench can't apply sufficent torque without twisting, though that would have to be pretty small.

FWIW, the philips stuff on the FUsins didn't use lockwashers, but the allens did use a split-washer. But they were large enough heads that I never had teh problem Motomech dexcribes; I think they were at least a 2mm wrench (maybe 2.5?) cant remember anymore.


At present I have an HSR3548 hub on teh right wheel of SB Cruiser, and even when it was on CrazyBIke2 it's always had this wierd problem where it's cover screws loosen and fall out if I don't regularly check them, even with loctite. So it's got a mishmash of screws with at least 4 or 5 different head types, from standard hex-head bolt to allen to philips to some security-bit type with a slot, to regular flat head, and I forget what else. None of them are any better at staying in than any other, but some are a lot easier to tighten and loosen. ;)

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by motomech » Feb 10 2018 12:16am

Actually, I mis-labeled the screws we are talking about. They are dished, so they would be dished Allens, no head to speak of. So there is nothing to grab on to if the wrench fails. Either Allens or Phillips, the last resort is cut a slot with a Dremel tool and use the straight bit w/ the impact. A little easier to cut the slot into the Phillips.
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 10 2018 4:30am

I rarely use a handheld impact driver anymore. I prefer a cordless impact driver - 'cause I don't need 3 hands to use it, and dislike beating on fragile projects.

During assembly, I rarely have future fastener issues when PROPERLY preped and PROPERLY torqued. I frequently use hex heads when access is restricted. And considering their inexpensive cost for decent replacements, all of the screws involved are a bargain - so buy extras.

Most machine screws are classified by shank length (does not include the head). If you can't find the correct length, then buy the longer (and a mating nut),. Screw the nut on first, then cut the shank to length. Simply unscrewing the nut helps burr removal and cleans-up the damaged threads.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 13 2018 7:12pm

I got the disassembly tool with my shell from BMSBattery. It is a beefy beast. I've posted several pics of it in my build thread here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91309&sid=bbbc9fc0b ... 0#p1358024
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17 2018 5:07pm

I popped the side cover off of my 260 RPM Q100H and counted the gear teeth. I couldn't get the planet gear carrier screws loose. I don't have an impact driver, and when I used a screwdriver bit in a socket wrench it felt like the screw head was going to strip before I could break it loose, so I couldn't count the sun gear. I was able to count the 1st and 2nd stage planet gears along with the ring gear though. Interestingly, they are the same as Papa's 328 RPM motor.

Sun: (assumed) 15 tooth
1st stage planet: 36 tooth
2nd stage planet: 23 tooth
Ring: 78 tooth

Sun to 1st stage planet ratio: 36÷15 = 2.4 (not needed for final ratio calculation)
1st stage planet to 2nd stage planet: 23÷36 = 0.64 (overdrive, need to multiply sun tooth count by this)
Small planet to ring gear: 78÷23 = 3.39 (not needed for final ratio calculation)

Since the planet carrier is fixed (it's part of the axle) the formula to calculate the ratio is simply ring÷sun, but since this is a multi-stage planetary, you need to multiply the sun gear by the overdrive ratio.

Sun times overdrive: 15x0.64 = 9.6 tooth
Overdriven sun to ring gear: 78÷9.6 = 8.125

So the final ratio of the reduction is 8.125:1.

Here's where things get really strange. What this tells me is that either:
  1. The wheel RPM (201 vs 260 vs 328) is determined by the motor winding and not by the gear ratio, or
  2. I received a 328 RPM motor, even though I ordered a 260 RPM
This is going to get even more weird. On BMSbattery's website, the Q100H is only available as 201 RPM, or 260 RPM and the Q100 is only available as 201 RPM or 328 RPM. The Q100H says it has a 12.1:1 reduction ratio, and the Q100 says it has an 8.2:1 reduction ratio. Soooo, what the heck is going on here? How is Papa's motor 328 RPM if it's a Q100H, and how is my supposed 260 RPM motor geared the same as his? And how are both of these motors only 8.2:1 when the Q100H is supposed to be 12.1:1?
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Buk___ » Feb 18 2018 1:11am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 17 2018 5:07pm
...
Here's where things get really strange. What this tells me is that either:
  1. The wheel RPM (201 vs 260 vs 328) is determined by the motor winding and not by the gear ratio, or
  2. I received a 328 RPM motor, even though I ordered a 260 RPM
...
At last I think you are getting to the crux of the matter with the qutes.

Either or both of the number of parallel turns and the gear ratio can be altered to provide for a motors use in different sized wheels and/or climbing vs top speed performance; and if you do the math, it makes most sense to change both in concert.

But gear ratio changes require expensive re-tooling, and stocking different matched-sets; which would be a night mare for low margin production; where altering the number of turns in conjunction with the number of parallel wires is simple and cheap.

Much of the 'information' about the qutes seems to have been derived from samples of one with little rigor and ample speculation; and then goes on to be oft-quoted as definitive. Throw in a few hangovers from earlier models of the 'same' motor and you end up with the confusing morass of misinformation we currently have with regard to cute specs and performance.

Add to that the commonly suggested, quoted and referenced motor simulation only has a predefined model for one "version" of qute, and that model doesn't match any of the "specs" commonly listed; and doesn't respond in sensible ways to changes -- major or minor -- to the model definition, and you end up where we are today.

Basically guessing.

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 2:42am

Papa: to save me a restless night, can you share the link to where you got a 328 rpm Q100H from?
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 18 2018 2:54am

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 3:10am

WTF?! (insert pulling hair out emoji here) Why would they have a 328 rpm front Q100H and not offer that in the rear?! The only difference is in the axles. Argh! This is infuriating! The difference must be in the motor windings, and I am not going to strip down my motor to check it right now.

I still don't get how they can say that this is a 12:1 ratio motor when clearly it is not.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by motomech » Feb 18 2018 3:22am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 18 2018 3:10am
WTF?! (insert pulling hair out emoji here) Why would they have a 328 rpm front Q100H and not offer that in the rear?! The only difference is in the axles. Argh! This is infuriating! The difference must be in the motor windings, and I am not going to strip down my motor to check it right now.

I still don't get how they can say that this is a 12:1 ratio motor when clearly it is not.
But there is;

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/353-q1 ... e-kit.html
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 5:25pm

Yeah, that's the Q100 not the Q100H. Which is what I was getting at before where the rear-drive Q100H is only 201 or 260 RPM, and the rear-drive Q100 is only 201 or 328 RPM. I don't know why the front-drive Q100H would be available in 328 RPM.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 19 2018 12:52am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 18 2018 5:25pm
Yeah, that's the Q100 not the Q100H. Which is what I was getting at before where the rear-drive Q100H is only 201 or 260 RPM, and the rear-drive Q100 is only 201 or 328 RPM.
After examining many images and comparing them to my Q100H, I likely wouldn't purchase ANY Q100... 328 or otherwise.
zro-1 wrote:
Feb 18 2018 5:25pm
I don't know why the front-drive Q100H would be available in 328 RPM.
I chose the 328 because the ratio is ideally suited for 20" wheels - irregardless of its intended purpose. No clue why they offered the Q100H 328 in front only.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 19 2018 10:28pm

zro-1 wrote:... Here's where things get really strange. What this tells me is that either:
  1. The wheel RPM (201 vs 260 vs 328) is determined by the motor winding and not by the gear ratio, or
  2. I received a 328 RPM motor, even though I ordered a 260 RPM
There's convincing evidence of gear changes - but little-to-none Re: windings. I'm not implying that all Cute motors posses identical windings,.. I'm simply stating that I posses NO evidence of winding changes.

The following link (dated 3/2015) clearly displays a Q100H and it's internal gearing (scroll down for planet image).,. Final ratio 12.3:1. (Sun 9t, first stage planet 39t, second stage planet 27t, ring 77t)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1030621

Note the obvious diameter difference between my Q100H W/15t sun, and the 9t sun in the linked image.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 19 2018 11:00pm

Perhaps another clue...

Both of my recently purchased Q100H/328 hubs are etched "AAD3616A". I assume the numbers to indicate 36 Volts, and 16 Amps. But zro-1's hub indicates BBD3620A. If my interpretation is correct, why the different amperage markings/ratings?
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 20 2018 1:06am

The first motor I received was an AAD3620A and not an BBD3620A and I bet that's why my gearing is 8:1 and not 12:1. Basically I got the wrong motor. But we'd never know without the discovery we're doing now.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by amberwolf » Feb 20 2018 1:12am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 20 2018 1:06am
Basically I got the wrong motor.
If it was from BMSBattery, that would certainly not be the first time they've done that. ;)

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 20 2018 1:50am

While my Q100H/328 is still in pieces, I'm tempted to carefully isolate a single stator pole and measure its resistance. Since I know the winding wire gauge (24 AWG), this should give me a point of reference. Unfortunately, to be useful, the same needs to be performed on different ratio hubs - which I no got.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by motomech » Feb 20 2018 7:11am

Papa wrote:
Feb 19 2018 10:28pm
zro-1 wrote:... Here's where things get really strange. What this tells me is that either:
  1. The wheel RPM (201 vs 260 vs 328) is determined by the motor winding and not by the gear ratio, or
  2. I received a 328 RPM motor, even though I ordered a 260 RPM
There's convincing evidence of gear changes - but little-to-none Re: windings. I'm not implying that all Cute motors posses identical windings,.. I'm simply stating that I posses NO evidence of winding changes.

The following link (dated 3/2015) clearly displays a Q100H and it's internal gearing (scroll down for planet image).,. Final ratio 12.3:1. (Sun 9t, first stage planet 39t, second stage planet 27t, ring 77t)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1030621

Note the obvious diameter difference between my Q100H W/15t sun, and the 9t sun in the linked image.
I count 8 teeth on the Sun gear in that linked pic, which is what I counted in my 2015 tread;
Q100 CST 328--8, 39, 27, 77, for an overall ratio of 9.63 to 1.
At the time, I felt all 36 V rated Q100 versions had either 8T or 11T Sun gears;
For referencing gear combo purposes the Q100 36V(with a compound idler gears) motors fall into two types. they are;

Motor shafts with 11T , they are; all the standard Q100 models(201 frt, 201 rear / 328 frt. 328 rear).

Motor shafts with 8T, they are; the "H" models and the CST models.
It's all quite confusing.
I guess I'm lucky that out of the 6 different Q100's I've used, they have all been the motor speed I ordered.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Buk___ » Feb 20 2018 7:24am

motomech wrote:
Feb 20 2018 7:11am
Papa wrote:
Feb 19 2018 10:28pm
Note the obvious diameter difference between my Q100H W/15t sun, and the 9t sun in the linked image.
I count 8 teeth on the Sun gear in that linked pic, which is what I counted in my 2015 tread;
I'd have to concur with Papa that there are 9 teeth on the sun gear in the linked pic:
Q100(H)SunGear.jpg
Q100(H)SunGear.jpg (24.18 KiB) Viewed 978 times
It is hard to see, but if there were only 8, they'd be 4 pairs of 2 directly opposite each other, and 45deg spacing, and I simply cannot make that work.

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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 20 2018 11:08am

motomech wrote:
Feb 20 2018 7:11am
I count 8 teeth on the Sun gear in that linked pic, which is what I counted in my 2015 tread;
Q100 CST 328--8, 39, 27, 77, for an overall ratio of 9.63 to 1.
Via my calculator, your ratio: 8t, 39t, 27t, 77t = 13.9:1.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Feb 22 2018 5:02pm

Added a few more images - planetary gear tooth re-marking, and inside views of the Halls.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by zro-1 » Feb 23 2018 8:16pm

So, using the gear-tooth counts from the motors papa and I received, we have:

(15t x 23t) : (36t x 78t) = 345 : 2808 = 8.14:1 (Which very closely lines up with the advertised ratio of 8.2:1 for the Q100)

If we change the gearing to what has been shown for other Q100H motors, we get:

(9t x 27t) : (39t x 77t) = 243 : 3003 = 12.36:1 (Which very closely lines up with the advertised ratio of 12.6:1 for the Q100H)

With that being said, and since the only difference between the Q100 and the Q100H is the torque (via different gearing), I would say that the AAD code refers to the Q100 and the BBD refers to the Q100H. I'm also going to guess that BMSBattery is advertising a regular front Q100 as a Q100H which would explain why it's available in a 328 RPM version when the rear Q100H is not.

Personal side note:
It's my guess that I got a motor off of the reject pile since the spoke-holes were mis-drilled and the gearing is wrong. (Also the shell had AAD, but the replacement shell I got had BBD) I'm going to open the motor back up all the way and check the wires to the hall sensors since they aren't working. I wouldn't be surprised at this point to find that they are somehow messed up too.

Papa: If you feel the gearing discussion is taking your thread off topic, please let me know, and I'll create a new thread, or continue in my build thread instead. I appreciate the details you've been providing on your modifications of the motor.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by -dg » Apr 19 2018 6:29am

Papa wrote:
Jan 25 2018 4:27pm
Uploaded image #7 - LH housing mod.
Please explain this a bit more. Are the holes intended for air circulation, or do you plan an oil fill? Is the stator not accessible to the oil without the holes? Thanks.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by -dg » Apr 19 2018 6:50am

Papa wrote:
Feb 07 2018 9:18pm
BTW.. When you reassemble the hub, I would strongly encourage using anti-seize compound (available at automotive parts retailers) on the aluminum cover-to-housing threads.
If you intend to fill with ATF would this still be a good idea, or would something like teflon plumbers tape serve the anti-seize function and also help seal the fluid in? Thanks.
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Re: Cute Q100H Autopsy & Modify 2017

Post by Papa » Apr 19 2018 4:28pm

-dg wrote:
Apr 19 2018 6:29am
Papa wrote:
Jan 25 2018 4:27pm
Uploaded image #7 - LH housing mod.
Please explain this a bit more. Are the holes intended for air circulation, or do you plan an oil fill? Is the stator not accessible to the oil without the holes? Thanks.
Oil (partial) fill. The stator windings are mostly enclosed, so the holes provide reasonably unrestricted access for improved cooling.
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