Bosch motor technical.

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Confuzsays@hotmail.com
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Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 03, 2018 12:51 am

Any users of Bosch motors like to post their experiences and any technical information they might like to share.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 03, 2018 4:30 am

Added Speedbox2 to my Cube cross pro and instead of getting 25kph i can now get 39kph average over 30km. Its taken 20mins off my transit time to work.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 07, 2018 8:14 pm

1. Bosch has restrictive proprietary software that prevents owners from adding front or rear lights themselves. The LBS need to connect laptop to make them work and they could void your warranty if necassary.
2. You cannot use 3rd party battery pack as the software will show error code. Your bikes internal memory will record this event thus voiding your warranty.
3. If you use a tuning dongle the internal memory will record this milestone so even if you remove it the LBS is able to access and void your warranty if necessary.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Crossman » Feb 08, 2018 1:38 am

Confuzsays@hotmail.com wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 8:14 pm
1. Bosch has restrictive proprietary software that prevents owners from adding front or rear lights themselves. The LBS need to connect laptop to make them work and they could void your warranty if necassary.
2. You cannot use 3rd party battery pack as the software will show error code. Your bikes internal memory will record this event thus voiding your warranty.
3. If you use a tuning dongle the internal memory will record this milestone so even if you remove it the LBS is able to access and void your warranty if necessary.
I was looking for some details on this, do you know what exactly it logs in memory if you use a dongle? You also said "if necessary" so I guess they don't always void the warranty. I was also wondering if it stores anything in case a sensor box is used?

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 08, 2018 7:52 pm

I've not tested the warranty for my bike so im really just advising what ive been told by the LBS. I have read somewhere that the pcb logs motor performance issues so there for a sudden increase in speed would probably show. Im a bit concerned about all the proprietary software but hope there is someone else making a hackware. The speedbox2 works really well but is it necessary if someone could just hack the bosch program and reset the speed restrictions.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 09, 2018 5:39 am

ERROR ON EBIKE BOSCH DRIVE UNIT? DON'T WORRY, READ THIS AND SOLVE ANY PROBLEM!
New Products Press Tech info Video
Date: 16/08/2017

Found an error code on your ebike display? Don't panic, here is the list of the most common error codes concerning the BOSCH Drive Unit and actions to be taken to solve them.

- 500 Internal error of the drive unit. Restart the system

- 502 Illumination error, voltage is too high / too low when the light is turned on or off (only if the bike lighting is connected to the drive unit). Check the light and the associated wiring. Restart the system

- 503 Speed sensor error. Possible causes of Error Code 503: incorrectly mounted magnet (excessive distance from sensor, incorrect mounting position), Bosch non-original magnet, insufficient rigidity of rear of bike or rear wheel, Speed sensor cable break, not inserted or loose pin in the drive unit, warning about various tuning methods. Check the mounting, wiring and contacts of the sensor and restart the system

- 510 Internal sensor error. Restart the system

- 511 Internal error of the drive unit. Restart the system

- 530 Battery pack error. Check if a Bosch original battery is installed. Switch off the eBike, remove the battery pack and reinsert the battery pack. Restart the system

- 531 Configuration error. It has been installed a wrong software for the Line series (Performance Line / Performance Line CX) or the type of bike (Cruise / Speed, derailleur / gearbox in the hub). Upgradeand update the software to the correct product line / the correct bicycle type. Restart the system

- 540 Temperature error. The eBike is outside the permissible temperature range (lower than -10°C or higher than 80°C). Switch off the eBike system and allow the drive unit to either cool down or heat up to the permissible temperature. Restart the system

- 550 An improper load was detected. Remove load. Restart the system

If the problem persists after having followed any of these instructions, contact your BOSCH eBike dealer or any authorised BOSCH eBike Service centre. Call or write to Ridewill Service Centre for any clarification or further information!

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Crossman » Feb 10, 2018 9:53 pm

thanks for sharing this , very much appreciated.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 12, 2018 4:46 am

Bear with me on this, as it a long and rambling one.

I don't believe that any make of current crank drive electric motor (DU) as fitted to eMTB's is not going to be susceptible to outer bearing failure, especially if the bike is used in Europen off road conditions. You only have to look at how often bottom bearings fail on non electric bikes to format a reasoning that the same would be true of an electric motor that is in effect replacing that bottom bracket.
It is my opinion that until a manufacturer designs what could be called a pre unit motor, that some how separates the motor from that bottom bracket, that this will never change. The bottom bracket would still fail, but it will be a separate, mechanical component, rather than an electrical one.

Now to the point in question in respect of Bosch DU's.

Yes I have had drive unit failure, and below are my thoughts in respect of the system.


Firstly, if the motor makes it to 600 miles, then you are more than likely going to be okay. It seems to me that many motor failures happen within this initial mileage. The next stage is 600 miles to 2,300, and then 2,300 miles plus. I personally feel that sooner or later, that any/all of the current DU's which are used in an eMTB, will eventually fail.

This leads to the reason of why. Do you all recall the Bosch popping sound of the previous incarnations of Bosch motors. The reason for this was lack of grease within, and it was an issue easily solved. An issue that should never have even happened, and also one that Bosch denied liability of, for a significant period of time.

The current DU's don't suffer from that problem, but do suffer from outer bearing failure. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, I am only aware of the failure occurring on the sprocket side.
I'm not an engineer, but through years of working on motorcycle race bikes, I do have a thorough mechanical understanding, and it is my belief that the current use of the small size sprocket, is placing undue strain and load on the drive side, which is then creating fractional wear. This fractional wear, is then allowing undue moisture to enter the bearing area, and accelerating bearing failure rate. This doesn't explain the early mileage failure rates though. I have also noted that failure rates occur more on the bikes of fitter riders, where by lower power settings are used, and more strain is being transferred through the pedal cranks. I suspect that riders that aren't so fit, or riders that use higher power settings might not suffer so many DU failures. Again this doesn't explain the low mileage failure rates. Perhaps a conspiracy theory, but I also feel that eMTB mode was introduced to try to prevent these failures, by offering an assistance over and above the requirement of the rider, and so reducing strain. Despite claims, the system is not intuitive.

Another reason for DU failure, is poor cleaning teqnique method of the bike and it's DU. The fastest way to destroy the outer bearing (again the drive side) is the use of high pressure hosing down, and or the use of cleaning detergents and oils. I frequently cringe at the teqnique used by many to clean their DU's. I also cringe when I see dealers recommending using detergents, degreasers, and oils around any bearing area whatsoever. Don't do it!

The above leads nicely on to the laughable cure of the bearing failure issue. The Bosch outer bearing seal modification. I'm not going to hold back on this, as I think that it is a complete cop out, and a poor one at that.
The idea being that grease is first put behind this seal, and a plastic ring then pushed over to prevent water ingress. This will only work, if the owners removes this seal at least once a month, and re greases it. Even then, it is a touch and go situation.
Taking this one stage further, the seal is now fitted as standard, and I removed the seal on my current bike, after just a few weeks of use, and discovered that from the factory, no grease had even been applied (Back to my above statement about the Bosch popping sound and the lack of factory supplied grease) Are the sealed bearings even of suitable quality, do they have a suitable grease, and if the first prevention stage is being completely missed out, who knows! I now remove and re grease the seal very two or three weeks. Should I need to, and should I have needed to add the grease that the factory choose to leave out, no I shouldn't.


Also in respect of my current motor, the motor refused to turn on from new, and just kept shutting down. I claim to know very little of how an electric bike functions, but it doesn't take much to work out that there is either a software issue, battery issue, or power issue. Trying parts on my other bike, everything apart from the motor was quickly eliminated. Two things were left. Either the motor was duff, or there was break in the connection between the battery and the motor. I tried everything that could think of, but nothing. Then out of desperation, I shone a torch into the plug of the motor, and there was the issue. One of the pins had been bent flat during the assembly stage. I very carefully straightened the pin, and everything worked first time. The pin will now be permanently weakened, so who knows when that will fail, and the motor will die. Probably the first time that the plug is removed. I do wonder if that doesn't also explain the odd thread that you read of, where an owner receives a new bike, only to have it not turn on.

I'm fed up of people saying that I am biased towards Bosch. I do love the system, and I'm more than happy with both the performance, and the support that as a company that they give to all, and see no reason for me to switch away from the brand. To date, no other brand even appeals to me.
I'm not prepared to pretend that the design isn't flawed though, and until the company revert back to a conventional size sprocket, or carries out a proper re design of the current system, then I predict that these failures shall continue.
One other aspect to think about, is that no one has any idea of the quantity of DU's produced daily, so the actual the percentage failure rate could in relative terms, be close to zero. Obviously that is of no consolation to those that do suffer a failure though, and I'm certainly making no defence of it. To end, even with a motor re design, only a pre unit motor will prevent bearing failure.

My gripe isn't oddly with the motor, my gripe is with the batteries. The mileage that they give after just a year of use, declines quite significantly, or that has at least been my repeated experience. I also don't like the fact that as a company, they do not listen to customer concerns in respect of either design, or factory installed software. I have discussed this with Bosch de

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 12, 2018 4:52 am

you grease that black plastic ring and i clean and re do mine every 3 months.
http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Mot...d ... 8a5a6.html

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 12, 2018 4:54 am

Hi Trever, firstly here is a link to the seal kit, including the grease that should be used when installing the seal, but in the case of my current bike, that Bosch chose not to add or use. https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy...- ... ase-570055 I suspect that any dielectric grease or similar would work just as well.

SW has already kindly added a photo of the seal, but here is another for you.

[​IMG]

The seal is easy enough to remove, by simply working your way carefully around it easing it as you go, using a small flat headed jewellery/micro screw driver.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 12, 2018 5:13 am

Bosch Battery Cost/Lifespan Comparisons vs Lifepo4 and Lipo
Karl Gesslein / March 27, 2015
I got an email last week about replacement costs for a Bosch Battery direct through Magura USA who is the US center for Bosch ebike parts and repairs. I’m not a big fan of the Bosch drive system (you can see why about 1/2 down the post here) but I thought I would do a financial comparison between the Bosch battery system and some of the batteries I’ve used over the past year.

The 400 Performance Frame battery pack - 36v 11Ah 2.5kg
The 400 Performance Frame battery pack – 36v 11Ah 400Wh 2.5kg $956.90 retail


There are a few Bosch drivetrain fatbikes that will be available for sale this year. The Haibike FatSix and Felt Outfitter and Felt LEBOWSKe Fatbikes. It seems like Bosch is poised to take over the lion’s share of the high-end factory middrive ebikes in the US in the years to come. How does the Bosch battery compare with cost/watt hr compared to other batteries I’ve used in the past year? The following chart does not always include shipping costs which can be substantial for Lithium batteries.

Bosch Li-Ion11Ah 36v $956.90/400Wh = $2.39/Wh / ~700 claimed cycles = $.0034 $/Wh/cycles 5.5lbs

LifePo4 Prismatic Pouch Cells 48v 20ah 30Amps cont pack bought on ebay from imotorbattery $490(shipped)/960Wh = $.51 Wh / ~1000 cycles (1500+ claimed) = $.00051 $/Wh/cycles (Included charger) 16.768 lbs

LifePo4 Headway 48v 16S 12ah pack bought from BMS battery with 50Amp cont $381.29(no shipping or charger)/576Wh = $.384Wh /~1500 (2000 claimed) cycles = $.00025 $/Wh/cycles 16.6 lbs (The website claims the battery is 3.38 lbs lighter but it’s a damned lie and they won’t update their specs after repeated requests)

Li-Ion Giant Twist Replacement battery 36v 10Ah Li-Ion NiCoMn from BMS battery (with Bms 15Amp Cont and charger) $189 (no shipping) / 360 Wh = $.52/Wh / ~700 cycles (800 claimed) = $.00075 $/Wh/cycles 5.375 lbs This battery is an upgrade for the Giant Twist and will not work easily on other bikes.

Lipo 8Ah ZippyMax battery 12S 30C 48v 8Ah from Hobbyking (no BMS) $170.94 (no shipping or charger)/384Wh = $0.445 / ~300 cycles (if you don’t abuse them) = $.00148 $/Wh/cycles 5.2lbs

LifePo4 Turnigy 4.5Ah 30C S18P2 54v from Hobbyking(no BMS) $212.94 (no shipping or charger)/243 Wh = $.86/Wg / ~300 cycles (if you don’t abuse them) = $.0029 $/Wh/cycles 5.94 lbs

Looking over these numbers the thing I keep going back to is the old saying around the bike shop. Durability, weight and price. Pick two. The most durable cells I’ve used, the 16S headways are also by far the heaviest. When you break down their cost over time they are the clear cheap winner, but 16lbs for a 12Ah pack is pretty hefty, even for one that can put out 50 Amps continuous. The lightest cells are the Zippy Flightmax, although they are by far the most persnickety of the bunch. If you overcharge them, charge them too fast or over discharge them you won’t get anywhere near 300 cycles out of them. For Lipos or LifePo4 batteries without a BMS you need a Cycle Analyst or a low voltage alarm. That being said the Lifepo4 and Lipos have a nasty tenancy to swell up and die when you pull too high of a C rate off them or keep them stored for a long time fully charged.

This pack puffed up when I tried to pull 50 Amps out of it. They claim an optimistic C rate which is not realistic on the website. This pack will likely die soon.
This pack puffed up when I tried to pull 50 Amps out of it. They claim an optimistic C rate which is not realistic on the website (they claim 135Amps / 30C). This pack will likely die soon.

The Bosch battery system has a built in controller that will only talk to a Bosch drive system. You will never be able to use their battery on any other ebike or motor. If the battery temp drops under 32 degrees of over 140 degrees F it will automagically shut off to protect the cells.

What do I recommend? I’ve been really happy with the headway cells for 50+ amp draw even though they are very old battery technology and are very, very heavy. They can be recharged faster than 2-3 Amps without damaging the cells and I consistently seem to get 12Ah out of the pack. The pouch cells are the pack I use 90% of the time and have given me more trouble than the Headways. One of the pouches has dropped down in voltage for an unknown reason a couple of months back, you can see the article on repairing it here. It could be a bad mosfet on the BMS leaking voltage or it could be a bad cell, but that pack seems to need to be left on the charger now if I want to get a full charge out of it. Leaving a pack on the charger 24/7 can decrease it’s pack life and generally is not advised. Hobbyking Lipo and Lifepo4 are a pain to deal with and when compared with the other battery technologies and is not that great of a deal. That being said it is the lightest of any battery tech so if weight is more important to you than cost or charge cycles it is an option.

Wh/cycle graph
$/Wh/cycle graph. Lower is a better value.

The packs that excite me the most are the triangle packs from em3ev. Although I can’t afford one right now, my ‘dream pack’ is a 29E large triangle pack. I’ll do the calculations here just to compare above.

Em3ev triangle pack INR18650-29E 40 Amps Cont – 24.8Ah – 50v $964 (Charger but no shipping)/1240Wh = $.777/Wh / 700 claimed (possibly doubled if charged to only 80%) = $.00111 $/Wh/cycles 15lbs

Another way to look at the data. The inner pie graph is weight, the outer is Wh Cost\Cycle. Smaller is better on both charts.
Another way to look at the data. The inner pie graph is weight, the outer is $\Wh\Cycle. Smaller is better on both charts.

The size/form factor/power of the Em3ev Triangle pack seems to me to be the best combination of price and performance. The built-in ability to charge your packs to 80%/90%/100% is a feature that should be integrated into every charger so ebike users can balance pack charging based on their needs to drastically increase their battery life. It’s proven that charging to only 80% can almost double your pack life. Another option is the Cycle Satiator from Grin if you want to charge almost any pack in the world to almost any percentage of capacity. It can be bought for $295 here. Considering the costs of many battery packs it could quickly pay for itself by extending your packs lives.

Ride On.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 14, 2018 7:03 am

Everyone that has one just wants. Fell asleep ignore this shit.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 15, 2018 2:51 am

The point of this post is to encourage both negative and positive experiences of bosch motors simply to consolidate information so consumers have some real time information. I have a bosch cx and have nothing but praise for the motor however if things go pear shape I'd like to know how and where to get help. These motors are usually fitted to expensive bikes so for many owners they are nervous about the perceived performance and longevity of the motor. Rather than guess and hope the motor will perform it cant hurt to post information about our passion. Pls keep posting to make life more interesting.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 16, 2018 8:22 pm

bosh trash encrypted can bus with even the BMS i remember some laptops have a suicide bms in the battery pack, if it looses pack voltage it never turns back on, the solution was to use jumper leads to power the circuit while the old cells are detatched and new ones soldered in, the next model they added cell level censing to this setup and multiple jumper leads were required to keep them alive ... what next ?

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by zzoing » Feb 18, 2018 12:06 pm

So today's hub motors average 40,000km until the spoke holes/bearings/sense wires are worn out... and Bosch mark 1 and 2 CX motors do 2000km mtbf? there should be some official mtbf figures from Bosch. You teach me something. Plus theres the regen on oldschool hubs, germans pride themselves in their bearing mtbf knowledge, they must have issued a statement about fixing that issue.

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by Confuzsays@hotmail.com » Feb 19, 2018 3:15 pm

So far I've done 1500km on my cx motor and its been perfect. I assume bosch are selling thousands of ebikes so if this is correct the complaints are very very low in comparison. I've posted some info about experiences of others but my experience so far has been good.
I just find it odd that their is very little discussion about bosch motors beit good or bad so because of that im trying to pry information out of enthusiasts.
Its a nervous time for me having spent A$4000 on a bike but i will be posting information about not only my bike but others as well. C

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Re: Bosch motor technical.

Post by jpgey » Feb 21, 2018 5:41 am

My Bosch Active Line I use to commute (18miles) is nearly dead at 6000 miles. When I apply torque on cranks it does slip inside the motor. I will do a video for that.
The motor has been send to Bosch but unfortunately they didn't find anything :shock: I had to wait 3 weeks.
I have to go back to my local dealer to send again the motor to Bosch.

I had made 6 ebikes with Cromotor, Cyclone, LightningRods mid drive and other motors and I bought a Bosch for reliability on my commute, bad idea !

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