Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by qwerkus » May 13 2018 11:37am

zro-1 wrote:
May 13 2018 10:53am
qwerkus wrote:
May 08 2018 9:45am
Nah - I asked Xiongda a few months ago, and they sent me details of the internals: they say it's technically not possible to use the motor as dynamo.
Did they provide any images/diagrams/specs that you can share here? That would be very valuable info in this motor thread.
The pictures were not very useful, and I doubt I have the right to just post them online. The explanations from xiongda are quite clear though: they apparently use a one-direction bearing - so it cannot be reversed; ergo: no regen. As simple as that. You may ask user D8veh - he has a lot more experience with this tiny motor; maybe her has pictures of the gearing.

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » May 17 2018 6:57pm

neptronix wrote:
May 08 2018 4:26pm
I contacted them on alibaba and they only offered me a winding that does 28kmh ( 17mph ) for a 700c wheel. No mention of the 12.25:1 version. I had to refer to this thread to find that out.

My plan..

I have a nice roadbike with drop bars and can hit 27mph on a flat pedaling sans motor if there's a slight grade or a tailwind, so i think the 12.25:1 ratio version would be more appropriate for a constant mild boost with PAS. I'm going to keep the phase amp to battery ratio extra gimpy ( maybe 2:1 or less ) so that it only gives me ~100w of boost from a stall and forces me to shift and pedal hard to get up to speed until the midrange kicks in and the wattage climbs to 200, 300, and peak at 350w, as that's what the efficiency curve tells us is the sweet spot for this motor :)

This motor will give WAY more power with the higher reduction ratio on 48v+, but i'm just looking for lightness and the simplicity of running a tiny 10S battery and the lightest hub that money can buy.
Weird. I am not sure if the winding changes in the different ranges. My understanding was that the gear ratios changed. Maybe if you tell them that it's going in a 20 inch wheel, they'll offer you the 12.25:1 ratio motor. You may have to run the motor at 15A to get any real off-the-line pull with that lower gearing and a 700c wheel though, and I don't know how well the motor will handle that many amps. I'm still running my motor at 12A which is OK for my typical riding conditions and the 17.5:1 gearing.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by davideserin » May 29 2018 9:00am

Is it possible to add a temp sensor to this motor, or any geared motor for that matter? I've got the Phaserunner and a pack of 5 temp sensors, so I'm thinking i will try that and push even more power. I can then share some info on when the phaserunner starts to dial back the power.

I'm really interested in this motor as I need the side access cable so that i can affix the FollowMe Trailer for the kids. It attaches to the axle.

If anyone is willing to share some good Phaserunner settings, i would be grateful.

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by davideserin » May 29 2018 9:38am

I also wanted to ask some advice on which motor winding to go for. I have 20S and 21S batteries and I would like to achieve around 30mph on throttle with my 26-inch wheels. I weigh 80kg and the bike a is pretty lightweight full suspension. I have the Phaserunner and I hope to be able to put a temp sensor in the motor <edit>with the Cycle Analyst<edit>. I would like it to be quite torquey as it will also have to occasionally carry cargo, such as a bike and a child. I mainly plan to have pedal assist, but will use a Sempu torque sensing bottom bracket. My thinking is to get the lowest RPM and use higher voltage to get both top speed and good torque. I regularly cruise around 25-30mph and quite like being able to hit 32-35mph with some extra pedalling and high gears.
Last edited by davideserin on May 30 2018 3:51am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » May 29 2018 5:50pm

I don’t think any geared version of this motor will sustain 30+ mph. And this is definitely not a motor to use if you want torque or to carry cargo like a kid and another bike. The 17.5:1 geared motor, with a fully charged 48V pack (54.6V), tops out at about 28 mph. That’s a guess though because I don’t have a speedo to know for sure, but based on my fitness tracker app, on the sections where I was pedaling fast downhill I was hitting 28-30 mph and the motor was just spinning and not contributing anything. On a flat stretch with considerable input on my part, the motor will sustain 24-28 mph tops.

Maybe, if you hook this up to a 14s pack for peak voltage of 58.8V you could get to or over 30 on flat terrain but I have no idea how long the motor would last at the power level. Even with the most torquey gearing this motor needs 12A to have any pull to it.

If you want 30+ mph, get a Q100h
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » May 29 2018 5:59pm

I forgot to mention, the Phaserunner doesn’t have any input for motor temperature or speed.

Also, the PhaseRunner is designed for up to 72V so both your 20s and 21s batteries are going to be too much for it
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by cwah » May 29 2018 7:30pm

zro-1 wrote:
May 29 2018 5:50pm
I don’t think any geared version of this motor will sustain 30+ mph. And this is definitely not a motor to use if you want torque or to carry cargo like a kid and another bike. The 17.5:1 geared motor, with a fully charged 48V pack (54.6V), tops out at about 28 mph. That’s a guess though because I don’t have a speedo to know for sure, but based on my fitness tracker app, on the sections where I was pedaling fast downhill I was hitting 28-30 mph and the motor was just spinning and not contributing anything. On a flat stretch with considerable input on my part, the motor will sustain 24-28 mph tops.

Maybe, if you hook this up to a 14s pack for peak voltage of 58.8V you could get to or over 30 on flat terrain but I have no idea how long the motor would last at the power level. Even with the most torquey gearing this motor needs 12A to have any pull to it.

If you want 30+ mph, get a Q100h
Is the q100h much more powerful? I m considering adding a front geared motor to my cargo bike. It would complete my rear DD as there are lots of load
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » May 29 2018 10:05pm

cwah wrote:
May 29 2018 7:30pm
Is the q100h much more powerful? I m considering adding a front geared motor to my cargo bike. It would complete my rear DD as there are lots of load
I don't know if I'd say "much" more powerful, but it seems so far like the Q100 can take more. The Q100h was easily taking 20A from a 13s pack (1,092W at full charge) and since I had the high RPM version it easily hit 30 mph. I haven't tried putting more than 12A (655W at full charge) into the YTW-06, but I doubt it could take 20A. EDIT: I forgot that I had bumped the amps up to 18A (983W at full charge) a couple weeks ago.

The Q100h supposedly will spin at either 201 rpm or 260 rpm at 36V, and the YTW-06 I got was tested at the factory is running at 230 RPM at 36V. So there shouldn't be a gigantic difference between the two. But in my build thread, I mentioned there that based on the gear ratio alone, it looks like my motor was geared for 328 rpm - which is what the faster 'plain' Q100 is rated at. So there is a big difference in top speed between the 230 rpm YTW-06 and the 328 rpm Q100 at the same voltages.

I like the YTW-06 because I could order it with a custom 120mm axle width, it has the side-exit cable, and it was lighter than the Q100. It's about the same size as an Alfine 8-speed IGH. In fact most people that look at the bike ask me where the shifter for the IGH is, rather than asking if its an eBike. But, if you wanted something that can sustain 30 mph (or more) and optionally pull a trailer or carry cargo, I think the Q100 is much better suited to that than the YTW-06.

Since I'm not thrilled with the stiff, noisy clutch on the YTW-06, I may just try bumping the Phaserunner up to 20A and see what happens. I don't imagine a 250W rated motor will last long at 1kW, but it sure will be fun to see how it performs at that power level. EDIT: since this motor has been running at 18A without any issues, I decided to bump the amps up to 20A.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by cwah » May 30 2018 3:43am

Yeah please put miles on it and see how long it holds. I broke so many BPM bpm2 clutches I decided to stop using geared motors! The last BPM was only at 1.5kw peak power!

I know another member here used to have a q100h and broke the clutch as well after few months at 1kw power
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by davideserin » May 30 2018 3:49am

I forgot to mention, the Phaserunner doesn’t have any input for motor temperature or speed.

Also, the PhaseRunner is designed for up to 72V so both your 20s and 21s batteries are going to be too much for it
Ah yes, sorry, I've got the Cycle Analyst on order, i'll edit that.

I'm currently using the Phaserunner with 21s Lithium, which is fine. You can in fact use it with 22S charged to 90v, but one drawback of running this high voltage relates to Regen. You have to either slightly under charge the battery or wait a bit for Regen to start biting as Max Regen end voltage is 90v.

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 01 2018 9:05pm

cwah wrote:
May 30 2018 3:43am
Yeah please put miles on it and see how long it holds. I broke so many BPM bpm2 clutches I decided to stop using geared motors! The last BPM was only at 1.5kw peak power!

I know another member here used to have a q100h and broke the clutch as well after few months at 1kw power
That shouldn't be any surprise. Geared motors are built for low weight, and you can't expect the clutches to be overbuilt. They also suck at shedding heat. Best way to keep one on the road long term is to stay close to it's power limits.

PS, i have a 12:25:1 ratio motor on the way. So my plan to build a torqueless wonder is underway :lol:
Should help for that 5% degree slope i have to pedal up every day!
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by want to build » Jun 01 2018 9:27pm

zro-1 wrote:
Apr 09 2018 7:13pm
Initial motor impression, copied from my build thread:
Good bits first:

The motor performs really nicely! The motor's power and top speed at 48V is exactly what I wanted. It pulls enough that I don't have to work very hard up the hills, though I do have to work (which is what I wanted—assist, not pedal-less climbing). The top speed is good. I don't have a speedo, so I can't tell you exactly how fast, but Strava reports my top speed at 28.2 mph. I'm positive the bike can go a bit faster, but the twitchy steering had me a little nervous so I was taking it easy. At top speed I was still able to contribute pedal input without just ghost pedaling, which was one of my biggest complaints with the fast Q100.
HI when uo say that at top speed you were ghost pedaling with q100 i dont understand what you mean. do you mean the bike was going so fast that you did not have enough gears to add power? is why are you not ghost pedalling with de ytw since it goes faster than the q100?
tx

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » Jun 10 2018 3:17pm

want to build wrote:
Jun 01 2018 9:27pm
HI when uo say that at top speed you were ghost pedaling with q100 i dont understand what you mean. do you mean the bike was going so fast that you did not have enough gears to add power? is why are you not ghost pedalling with de ytw since it goes faster than the q100?
tx
It's a long story, but the Q100 I received was geared or wound at the fastest 328 RPM (at 36V) speed. So it was faster at the same voltage. My bike is a single-speed, so I don't have a higher gear to shift into to keep the pedals engaged. That was why I was ghost pedaling with the Q100. The YTW-06 spins at a more reasonable 260 RPM (at 36V) so I can actually keep the pedals engaged—lightly—when the motor has reached its maximum RPM.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » Jun 10 2018 3:36pm

I wanted to update this thread with preliminary results of running this motor with a peak amperage of 20 A.

First I would absolutely not recommend this power level for anyone who's controller limits voltage instead of amps. I would only recommend this for those with a field-oriented controller like the Phaserunner. That's because the motor will only see those peak amps at full throttle and you can control how long it sees max amps yourself.

After a full week of commuting and errands (about 50-60 miles), the YTW-06 seems to be handling the 20A max OK. It's performing very well, it's not making any weird noises, and after a 5 mile ride it is warm, but not so hot that I can't hold it. I haven't measured temps at the axle, but sticking my fingers against that part, it doesn't even feel as hot as a fresh cup of coffee on the side of the case in where the axle exits and the brake disk would mount.

That said, I only use peak power for short periods. The vast majority of my riding is at the lowest throttle "position" I have which is about 35% or about 7 Amps. For the moderate stuff I'll typically use the medium throttle "position" which is about 75% throttle or about 15 Amps. Out of a 20 minute ride, I may only spend one minute combined at max Amps, 8 minutes at medium Amps, 9 minutes at minimum Amps, and 2 minutes with no power used at all (just my own).

I don't expect the motor will last forever at these power levels, but that's ok. I'll be happy if I get 1 or 2 seasons out of it before I cook it. When it does die, I'll probably be going back to a slow-geared Q100 for this single-speed bike. I'll of course keep everyone posted about how it does.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » Jun 10 2018 3:40pm

neptronix wrote:
Jun 01 2018 9:05pm
PS, i have a 12:25:1 ratio motor on the way. So my plan to build a torqueless wonder is underway :lol:
Should help for that 5% degree slope i have to pedal up every day!
I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on the faster geared motor, and your impression of the motor generally. I'm new to hub motors, so I don't have a lot to compare the YTW-06 to.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 25 2018 1:58pm

So i ordered my motor on the 1st and sent a message asking for a shipping update on the 23rd.
Today, i get a message saying 'sorry, we'll send it via fast shipping this week'.

What service.. :lol:
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » Jun 25 2018 5:46pm

Wow, that stinks. I wonder if they're getting flooded with scooter orders. I'm glad they're going to fast ship it to you.
EDIT: I just realized the popular scooter that Bird and all of them are using is Xiaomi not Xiongda :oops:
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by qwerkus » Jun 26 2018 5:41pm

If anyone is interested, there is a thread about this motor in a german forum, with many details, including internals:

Image

It appears that the freewheel is actually located INSIDE THE ROTOR, which means when you're coasting, you're still driving the 2 stage reduction gears. Given that amount of drag already generated by this config, I'd suggest modifying the rotor to remove the freewheel, and try the motor with regen enabled. Should be doable - don't know why Xiongda told me it's impossible. Anyone up to it ?

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 26 2018 6:07pm

Well, that's an interesting design. I guess you do what you gotta do to jam 2 reductions plus a motor into that tiny space.
I think that it's better that the cause of the mystery drag is a weird freewheel design rather than a traditional freewheel design that was executed poorly.

Honestly an ultralight direct drive with regen would be the bee's knees.
Thanks for that pic!
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by qwerkus » Jun 27 2018 1:45am

neptronix wrote:
Jun 26 2018 6:07pm
Honestly an ultralight direct drive with regen would be the bee's knees.
Thanks for that pic!
You mean ultra-light GEARED hub motor ? Because a direct-drive motor will always be 4Kg+... or rather anemic!
Not my picture, as explained.
Another interesting thing to notice is the 2 parts axle: that automatically means a less-than perfect alignment of the bearings, which could translate into premature failing.
Last edited by qwerkus on Jun 27 2018 11:55am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 27 2018 8:42am

Sorry to butcher terminology like that. But you know what i mean, right? :pancake:

The bafang G310 is probably the better dual reduction motor. It seems like there is an additional bearing on one axle side. Same split axle issue though. I imagine that designing one of these with a solid axle would be rather difficult.
G310Banner.jpg
G310Banner.jpg (144.2 KiB) Viewed 842 times
We'll have to see how long these hold up. I think they're so cool that i'm willing to be a beta tester anyway.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by qwerkus » Jun 27 2018 3:28pm

neptronix wrote:
Jun 27 2018 8:42am
The bafang G310 is probably the better dual reduction motor. It seems like there is an additional bearing on one axle side. Same split axle issue though. I imagine that designing one of these with a solid axle would be rather difficult.
The big difference is the location of the freewheeling clutch: in the G310, it seems to be located between the ring gear and the hub shell (top right of the pic) - difficult to say based on this picture. That would be a much better position, since it would cut off the entire reduction + motor during coasting, and should be a lot less draggy. Can someone who owns this motor confirm ?

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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » Jul 06 2018 12:19am

qwerkus wrote:
Jun 26 2018 5:41pm
If anyone is interested, there is a thread about this motor in a german forum, with many details, including internals:
...
It appears that the freewheel is actually located INSIDE THE ROTOR, which means when you're coasting, you're still driving the 2 stage reduction gears.
Wow! That explains so much. I was wondering why the clutch remained so stiff. The fact that it is located on the rotor explains a lot.
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 08 2018 7:36am

Interesting about the freewheeling clutch. I just got my motor in the other day and noticed there's pretty crazy resistance in there.

But it's so awesome. The thing is the size of some people's fists. Hides well behind the average gear cluster and disc brake. I'm lovin' it :)

By the way, to those of you who spoked it up.. this motor sure has big spoke flanges. What kind of spokes did you use to build one up?
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Re: Xiongda YTW-06 mini hub motor

Post by zro-1 » Jul 08 2018 12:37pm

I used 13-14G butted sapim spokes from Grin. They've held up fine in my 700c rims so far.
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