Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.
want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jun 10 2018 12:07pm

hi if dogman is the one who tested lots of 2wd possibility, i read lots of his topic and what i basically understood was the following:
1: one bigger rear geard hub is better that two small 2wd.
2; 2wd is better in this area: when you want more traction ie snow mud sand ice.

maybe he will disagree but i fell 2wd is a lesser choice that a reag hub or cheap mid cyclone3000.

ianhill, you last post is colorfull . but i did get (eng is second language) the message you were trying to deliver .i did check zero motor but they are motorcycles wich i do not want. i mon a budjet an i want to bike

User avatar
parajared   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 848
Joined: Apr 16 2012 11:33pm
Location: Northern Arizona

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by parajared » Jun 10 2018 1:25pm

want to build wrote:
Jun 10 2018 12:07pm
hi...
1: one bigger rear geard hub is better that two small 2wd.
No, less reliable less traction to have one motor
Yes, less weight, more stealth to have one motor
maybe he will disagree but i fell 2wd is a lesser choice that a reag hub or cheap mid cyclone3000.
All perfectly reasonable choices. If we are going to split hairs a 9c style (like ebikekit) rear DD would be my personal choice.
i did check zero motor but they are motorcycles wich i do not want. i mon a budjet an i want to bike
Zero makes great motorcycles but drive one down that scenic bicycle path you've been wanting to ride and suddenly everyone is all grouchy with you (even when you keep the burnouts and wheelies to only maybe just a few)

Ianhill   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1698
Joined: Sep 25 2015 5:55pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by Ianhill » Jun 10 2018 2:19pm

I was having bit of a laugh with the zero motor unless your luke live for physics he shoved one in a bicycle.
I'll say 1 good hub that does the lot is better than two that can do the job for two reasons.
No1 there's only one set of efficency losses vs 2 plus the added wiring etc.
No2 The front fork, Justin is doing loads of testing to see the limits of various types but to be honest it's not looking good for anything over 1000w at 48v in the front fork.

I will also add that a middrive system under 2kw should be the best bet for range over terrain with varying speeds. If a middrive and a hub motor of the same output could be matched up then rode at a steady speed on the flat then the hub would win as there's no chain losses it tends to be a more efficent system as long as it's not lacking in torque you can climb too so have a think what you ride like and where, is it a continuous speed or varying speeds on trails.

I can do trails too but not all hubs can do the climbing thing, for a cheap simple ride a bbshd seams to work for most, there used to be lipos used a lot I still got them in one of my scooters but I would say for the price of an 18650 pack these days go for that long as your not working to fit it in a certain shape tight space.

I worked out last night that i can fit 90 sanyo 20700b cells in my bike stock downtube location if I configure this to 36 volts I can triple my capacity and be under 3kilo heavier, I could get upto 100 miles in the right conditions with that, Or configure it for speed screw up my efficency at my peddling cadence and go 40mph with 25mile range tops all about your needs and working a way towards them.

want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jun 20 2018 9:12pm

hi

I narrowed it up to choosing between bmp (cst or not )500w or xiongda 2 speed motor.

i dont care it i go uphill slowly, i a motor that will get me up without heating to much so without damage probability.

here are the spec i received from xondga . i m not sure how to interpret them

on one side yes bmp has more copper mass but if the xiongda is made to go up at slower real speed uphill maybe it will just produce less heat??

pict on left lower speed and on right higher speed both for xiongda motor. i do not have bmp spec if some one know where to find theme it would help
Attachments
xd111.gif
xd111.gif (191.16 KiB) Viewed 914 times
xd222.gif
xd222.gif (221.3 KiB) Viewed 914 times
xd333.gif
xd333.gif (214.83 KiB) Viewed 914 times
xd444.gif
xd444.gif (111.06 KiB) Viewed 914 times
xd555.gif
xd555.gif (96.89 KiB) Viewed 914 times

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34985
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by dogman dan » Jun 21 2018 8:33am

I did not test two wheel, because I got donated a very large motor. It worked well, so its still running strong years later. I don't know if it is better running 2000w through it vs two 1000w motors. I only know that I could load up to 450 pounds total weight with that big 25 pound rear motor. ( an old crystalyte 5000 series) Never had a bit of problem with traction, but I could say two wheel might be better for paved.


Others have done two motors, two DD's two geared motors, etc. All report great ability to climb with heavy load, as it should be. All would be capable of 1000w per motor. 2000w will get you over the rocky mountains, allowing 15 mph up typical grades of 8%.

Let me just say I don't know the xionga. but ALL hub motors suffer the same fate, you cannot overload them, and have them perform cool. Don't be fooled by low load rpm heating data. Listen to those of us who went out and deliberately melted motors testing them to destruction. You will be overloading them, if a hill is 5% or more, and several miles long. I assure you this is true, even of the mid size DD motors.


Again, two of those xionga's gets you double the power, increasing your rpm up a hill heavily loaded. Then you can load up, with double the motor. Whatever works for you will be fine, you just need to avoid overloading a hub motor, one way or the other. My philosophy for touring had to take into account that I live in desert, so to ride across desert, and then over the mountain, I had to have a motor that absolutely never overheated, despite 450 pounds of load. Break down in the desert no problem, its only death. So one big reliable motor, two smaller reliable motors, whatever.

Or mid drive.

cwah   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4204
Joined: Jul 24 2011 5:42am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by cwah » Jun 21 2018 9:53pm

So what's best? 1 big motor or 2wd?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jun 25 2018 7:15pm

cwah wrote:
Jun 21 2018 9:53pm
So what's best? 1 big motor or 2wd?
i cannot conclude on this..
for me since its my firts project , 2wd might be to complicated. so that is why i look at xiondga and bmp

want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jun 25 2018 7:16pm

do someone have experience with xiongda and bmp500W?

want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jul 02 2018 7:41pm

bump

User avatar
wineboyrider   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sep 30 2009 9:08am
Location: Tularosa, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by wineboyrider » Jul 03 2018 9:12pm

The xiongda being a two speed should be able to not produce a lot of heat as one is a low gear and the other is for higher speeds. My BBS01 sure is nice on some of the 6% grade hills I have here not far from Dogman.
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

User avatar
wineboyrider   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sep 30 2009 9:08am
Location: Tularosa, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by wineboyrider » Jul 04 2018 10:01am

My biggest problem with mid drives has always been the drive train and maintenance. I had an older cyclone setup and it was great, but the maintenance drove me to hub motors. This might help https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/ex1
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

Ianhill   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1698
Joined: Sep 25 2015 5:55pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by Ianhill » Jul 04 2018 11:50am

If I was going to do a cheap build for myself I'd get a 1000w hub motor laced in a small 20 inch wheel and then control it with a RC 60amp vesc 6, If the motor has a temp sensor you can monitor motor and mosfet temp's and reduce power accordingly, Can have a mappable throttle and drive it upto 12s with FOC comutaion control true sinewave and smooth torque delivery.

want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jul 16 2018 3:14pm

Ianhill wrote:
Jul 04 2018 11:50am
If I was going to do a cheap build for myself I'd get a 1000w hub motor laced in a small 20 inch wheel and then control it with a RC 60amp vesc 6, If the motor has a temp sensor you can monitor motor and mosfet temp's and reduce power accordingly, Can have a mappable throttle and drive it upto 12s with FOC comutaion control true sinewave and smooth torque delivery.
HI
i googled RC 60amp vesc 6 but could not find what it is

a remote control for somenhing? if yoou have a link it would be appreciated

see you later

Ianhill   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1698
Joined: Sep 25 2015 5:55pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by Ianhill » Jul 16 2018 4:15pm

Flipsky vesc 6.6 have a knock off of the vesc 6 that's used in the trampa boards both can be used with the vedder software so it's not for beginners but a novice will get to grips with it, it's not a power house but with a 1000w hub in a small wheel you can expect to climb anything and have FOC 6 step commutation so it's true sinewave making a very quite ride.

want to build   100 W

100 W
Posts: 115
Joined: May 18 2018 3:37pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by want to build » Jul 16 2018 5:20pm

hi vesc is about 200 dol
what does it do better than lunacycle adjustable controller ? for example
https://lunacycle.com/60-amp-36-72v-ebi ... ontroller/

Ianhill   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1698
Joined: Sep 25 2015 5:55pm

Re: Which motor and battery for touring rinding with some hills

Post by Ianhill » Jul 16 2018 7:25pm

Not sure on the luna controllers full specs to see if it does FOC and true sinewave the vesc's take a phase resistance measurement and an inductance reading so it can run Field oriented control to have better control of the rotation.

Most controllers just pulse phases on and off with someway of keeping timing, FOC controllers ramp the phase up and ramp it down so the signal looks like a sinewave even within the 6 step commutation or 1 erpm there's sinewave not just digital highs and lows this results in the torque following the rotor magnetic flux better so there less waste more efficient and much quiter than even sensored bldc.

Brushed motor are arguably FOC as the commutator performs the same task as it spins each phase slowly ramps up and down, but they have the brushes causing lots of heat and RC interference so there's the efficency losses, plus there's issues with high rpms and brushes arcing along with high voltages so brushless is no doubt a better choice but it's nice to see that the old girls had some good to them that we can learn from.

I'm no pro mind just getting stuck in and learning I love motors and how they tick some good math to them.

Post Reply