New ebike build!

Raven505

10 mW
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
Messages
26
Location
Reno, NV.
Hello everyone,
I’m new to building ebike but have been riding bikes my whole life. This is my first post. Hope I’m in the correct place and don’t ask to many stupid questions till I learn more. Anyways, my reason for posting is I want to be correct on purchases and don’t want to make to many mistakes along the way. I’m going to be building a cruiser for commuting and touring with a bob trailer. I know I’m going to be using a 1500 edge rear hub laced to a 26” rim. I’m wanting more torque then speed. Max speed would be 30mph. Probably 20-25 mph more reasonable. I’m thinking a 48v 20a battery. I’m really confused on which controller would be the best fit? Also, which battery? I’m looking for relaiability more then going fast. So, anyone’s input would be greatly appreciated. Thnx!
 
Raven505 said:
Hello everyone, I’m going to be building a cruiser for commuting and touring with a bob trailer. I know I’m going to be using a 1500 edge rear hub laced to a 26” rim. I’m wanting more torque then speed.
How much torque? Meaning, what kind of pulling power are you needing, on what kind of terrain, against what kind of winds, with what amount of weight?

If you can go with a winding of that motor that has a higher number, it will have more torque at the same battery voltage as a winding with a lower number. (see http://ebikes.ca/simulator for help understanding, if you need it). (though it will have a slower top speed at that same voltage).

You could be better off with a completely different motor depending on your needs. What is your reason for picking this one?


I’m thinking a 48v 20a battery.
You probably mean 20ah, as batteries are rated first by capacity (Ah), not current capability (A). You'll want one with more Ah than you need, because as it ages it will deliver less capacity. Determining how much capacity you need will require answers to the above terrain/etc questions, as it can vary widely.

My CrazyBike2 gets about 20-25wh/mile, no pedalling, 20MPH cruising and max, lots of stops and starts, no wind no hills. Same conditions, my SB Cruiser trike takes twice that, around 50wh/mile, so it takes twice as big a battery to go the same distance.

More regular bikes than those could take anything from 10-20wh/mile under the same conditions.


But you will also need a battery that is rated for more *continuous* current (A) than you actually need from it, so it will still be able to sustain that as it ages.


You'll also want a battery from a place you know is reliable (not the cheapest thing you can find on ebay/etc), and that you can take it back to when it has a problem, or else you're going to be fixing it yourself, since replacing it will probably be expensive.

I’m really confused on which controller would be the best fit?
The more torque you want, the more A you want from the controller. But the more A it can provide, the faster it eats your battery under stop/start, hilly, or windy conditions, and the faster it heats up the motor. As long as the motor was meant for this usage, it'll be fine, but if it's too small to shed the excess heat, you'd either have to have a more appropriate motor, or use one of a number of methods to increase cooling of it.


But it does allow you to still do the same acceleration rate you need under any of those conditions, if it's high enough A in the first place.

Sinewave (FOC) controllers are MUCH quieter than trapezoidal (cheapest) types. PUre current (sometiems called torque) throttle controllers are easier to control via throttle than speed/PWM (cheapest) types.

Some have displays and/or are user-programmable to customize them after you get them. Most do not/are not.


The battery continous (not burst) A rating has to match (preferably exceed) that controller A rating.



Watt ratings are irrelevant; nobody rates them the same as anyone else, everyone lies about the ratings or exaggerates them for marketing. Same for batteries, motors, controllers, etc. See http://ebikes.ca Learn page for more info on that. (or many threads around ES).
 
Thnx Amber wolf! I was thinking of that motor cause of the ability to handle the higher amps and volts.

I live in the mountains of Colorado and northern New Mexico. Lots of hills, weather and dirt roads. I want to be able to carry gear to go camping. I would be happy with 20mph top speed especially if I didn’t have to worry to much about burning stuff up.
 
Honestly, I think you should go with a mid drive. Something like a 1000w bafang. Especially if your going to be towing something around plus going up hills!

Now because a mid drive works off the chain and gears on your bike you can use a lower gear for going uphill instead of having your hub motor turn into a toaster oven.

However, this route is more expensive and requires a few extra tools.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Baf...403.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3f2c4c4dB6rYD2
 
Thnx! I’ve done the mid drive before with a small gas engine. It was nice but I did not like it cause it added a whole mess of problems to the bike. I like the simplicity of the Dd hub. Even if you use a big 3000 watt Mxus hub and didn’t push it to its peak? Would it still create a lot of heat? And probs to the motor?
 
Wider motors can generate quite a bit more torque for the same power, depending on how they're wound, vs a narrower motor.



Decreasing the wheel diameter "gears down" the motor so it makes more torque and less speed for the same conditions otherwise.


How much heat you generate with any motor depends on a bunch of things; see the http://ebikes.ca/simulator for what and why, and play with it to see what you'd want to get for your purposes.

Realistically, you could probably use the motor you are looking at, but you may need quite a battery to handle both the power requirements and range.

Look at Dogman Dan's build threads; he does some mountain riding in the "bottom" of NM; his longtail build is probably something like what you would want. (plus your trailer).

Personally I'd go with 2WD, hub in front and rear, but I don't like breakdowns in the desert heat and 2WD has let me keep going in a number of cases I couldn't have otherwise. It also spreads the heat load between the two motors, and lets you do stuff you might not be able to with just one (unless it was a lot bigger).



On SB Cruiser, I'm using two MXUS 3k, often called 450x where x is number of turns, so mine are 4504 and 4503 (matching is better but I got them cheap used), in 20" wheels with 16" moped/mc tires, so they're effectively more like 21"+ wheels.

One has a generic "30A" controller with an extra shunt soldered in for around 80A peaks at startup. The other has an older Grinfineon, really still just a generic controller, 40A peaks at startup.

I've hauled a lot of stuff with those, including a piano, and the trike itself with me on it is a few hundred pounds.

I'm now testing a controller designed by Incememed here on ES, called the SFOC5, and it's essentially silent in operation, compared to the generic trapezoidals above. It's also much better at controlling current to the motors, and while it does not yet quite match the startup performance of the others, it's being updated frequently and will likely do so soon enough. Even so, it does just about match the 0-20MPH acceleration of *both* controllers and motors together (around 4 seconds), using just one motor and controller, but it gets a lot hotter doing it, since the heat is concentrated in just one motor instead of two.


But it does the job...and cooling the motor actively in one of a number of ways would let it do it continuously if I needed it to (which I don't really). :)


As a comparison, right now I'm using an HS3548 with that grinfineon 40A, and the acceleration is significantly less than with the 4503 on the same controller, even using the 4504 on the left with the generic now-80A controller.

The difference is primarily that the MXUS 450x is 45mm magnets/stator, while the HS3548 is 35mm.

Most of the "generic 500w-1000w" hubs are 27-28mm. I don't know what the motor you want to use has for magnet/stator width.
 
Cool man. I dont know what your set up was so I just instantly recomended it. Powerful D&D hubs can be simple if you've got the right rear dropouts to fit one.

Now, you could use the Mxus 3000w at a lower level but I'd recommend not running it lower. Reason being is I actually own a scooter that is about 3000w and it just barely manages to accelerate up hill by itself(30-40 degree incline) and that's with a 12 inch wheel(small wheels create more torque, bigger wheels higher top speed). With a 26inch wheel it would be probably be struggling. Your gonna need that power if your tugging something uphill. It might be a good idea to get a hub with a temp sensor(im not really sure if that hub motor has one).

If you go this route, @ 48v, your going to need a battery that can put out around 60A continuous or @72v 40A continuous.

This is why I brought up the bafang. It's more efficient as you will only need a battery capable of pushing 30A continuous @ 48v and it really gets the job done.
 
The motor I’m looking at has 35mm stator. The mxus I’m looking at has 45mm. Are you running you two hubs with two separate batteries? So you say that it is better to run two motors with the same stator size?


I’m going to relook at the mid drive motor. Even with a high wind like 6 or 8t it will still not have that much torque? And get hot?

BTW, I’m not going to be running a trailer and carrying a bunch of weight around all the time. Mostly I’m going to be commuting 15-30m at a time. Weekend and stuff I’ll head into mountains for camping and stuff.
 
Raven505 said:
Hello everyone,
I’m new to building ebike but have been riding bikes my whole life. This is my first post. Hope I’m in the correct place and don’t ask to many stupid questions till I learn more. Anyways, my reason for posting is I want to be correct on purchases and don’t want to make to many mistakes along the way. I’m going to be building a cruiser for commuting and touring with a bob trailer. I know I’m going to be using a 1500 edge rear hub laced to a 26” rim. I’m wanting more torque then speed. Max speed would be 30mph. Probably 20-25 mph more reasonable. I’m thinking a 48v 20a battery. I’m really confused on which controller would be the best fit? Also, which battery? I’m looking for relaiability more then going fast. So, anyone’s input would be greatly appreciated. Thnx!
It's hard to move weight(camping gear)up hills w/ hub motor(s). An electric motor is not like a gas engine where you can just hold the throttle to the stop and not worry.
We recently talked about it here;
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=95959&p=1405553#p1405553
Definately geared motor(s). Larger Low speed (201), 5 Kg. ones- MAC, BPM, etc., on 30 to 40 Amps controller(s). Battery needs to have sufficient dis-charge rate(s).
If one motor won't do it, think two.
Going to bigger hubbies(Q11, Leaf)ups the game quite a bit, bigger batteries, special controller(s) to handle the heat, bigger wires, etc.
Or just go w/ a mid-drive and deal w/ any mechanical issues that surface.
 
Of course you could get a higher wind for more torque but I'm unsure if that would be enough.

Now if your talking about running 2 hubs, it would definitely have enough power and both motors would help each other. You can run them off two batteries or one. Both work but you still need a controller for each.

However, if you needed a battery that could do 40A continuous with one hub, your gonna now need one that can do 80A continuous. (or two that could do 40A) Starts to get pricey. Also range will suffer.

72v * 80a = 5760 watts.

Funny enough this is what I run my electric enduro at to get up hills(although I have a QS 205 V3 hub motor. 50mm stator).
My girlfriend on the otherhand has a stock Bafang 48V 1000w on her bike and she climbs hills just as well as I do when she gears down.
 
Raven505 said:
Are you running you two hubs with two separate batteries?
Single big battery. It's a 14s2p, 40Ah total, EIG NMC capable of 200A continuous, and a lot more than that for short bursts. Weighs over 35lbs, though. (ran a 20Ah version on the bike, as it had about half the power requirement of the trike)

My acceleration takes only a few seconds from zero to max speed (20MPH), and so far I've never been able to push it past around 130-150A I think it is, using the SFOC5 before I broke the MXUS 4503 axle (not from the power, but from a probable bug in the firmware that should be fixed now, which caused a sudden instant reversal of power, or sudden stop of the wheel, just for an instant, before it continued forward again).

(I broke the 4504's axle from something else; I forget exactly what but it was a combination of things--it's in my SB Cruiser thread somewhere. I welded the end back on and it's been fine since then. the 4503 repair is more complicated cuz it's on the wire side, so that's not done yet.)


So you say that it is better to run two motors with the same stator size?
It doesn't matter so much if they are the same or not, but the more total stator width you have, the more torque for all other things the same.

What I was really trying to give example of was simply the difference between the narrower and wider stator motors. :)

On CrazyBike2, I ran a 2806 (I think) in front, 26" wheel, and the HS3548 in back in a 20" wheel. Both on 40A generic controllers.

I've also run various combinations of different motors on both bike and trike over the years, and basically it comes down to the smaller the wheel diameter and the wider the stator, the more torque you get for all other conditions the same, since essentially I ran the same controllers or at least the same type and power level of controllers, for most of those configurations.




BTW, I’m not going to be running a trailer and carrying a bunch of weight around all the time. Mostly I’m going to be commuting 15-30m at a time. Weekend and stuff I’ll head into mountains for camping and stuff.

But you'll have to build the bike to handle the worst-case conditions, so it'll be able to do taht all the time. Otherwise, it won't really meet your needs for the mountain stuff.

I suppose you *could* use a programmable controller or one with a display with switchable power levels, or use the http://ebikes.ca Cycle Analyst V3 to make presets to control system behavior, so that it has a high power mode for mountain use, and an economy mode for the rest of the time, and then have a pair of batteries wired in parallel to provide all the mountain power, and then take one off for the economy stuff. Then build or buy those batteries so the economy battery just meets the maximum economy needs, and the add-in mountain battery adds enough capability to handle the mountain stuff.

That would save you the weight of carrying that portion of the battery all teh time, at least.




FWIW, as long as you maintain your chain system, and utilize power presets like the above, you could use a medium to high power middrive and it would be lighter and probably more efficient (because you can shift gears to keep the motor in the efficient zone most of the time, which you can't do with a hubmotor). Using a lower power preset for most of your riding would decrease the wear and tear on the chain system, and save you battery usage. So with the middrive you could also use the dual-battery system noted previously to save you more weight when not mountain riding.
 
A mid-drive is your best bet IMHO.

I'm not fond of hub motors, but they do make for a simple and clean installation.

At some point you will see me use a hub, but the vast majority of anything I ever build will be some sort of chain drive to the back wheel (mid-drive).

There's several reasons for this.

An outrunner with the same wattage as a hub will weigh probably 1/3 to 1/4 as much as the hub. An inrunner option is a little worse at more like 1/2 to 1/3 the weight.

A hub is lots of unsprung weight inside the back wheel. This hurts ride quality and acceleration.

A hub does have a couple of advantages. No chain, simple installation in place of the factory back or front wheel. But IMHO, that's where the advantages end.

If you are putting a motor on a mountain bike, you already have a chain and sprockets. How is a chain from the motor worse than this?

If you do connect the motor into the pedals and chain line, you will probably find that you need to replace several components. Human power for top athletes is like 450 watts peak and a 1500 watt motor running through that same set of parts is 3-4X more powerful. Parts will wear or break more quickly. Expect to discover where the weak spots in your bike are! A hub won't have these issues, but as was already stated, you can't keep the motor in it's best RPM band either.

Personally, I would run a dedicated chain line to the back wheel and still use a mid-drive. I can easily build a set up that will out perform me on my best day. I get several advantages this way.
1. Regenerative braking since there is no freewheel. This means more range.
2. No need to modify the person powered components since they are probably too weak to take the motor torque.
3. Ability to set up motor gearing for whatever my use case is.
4. Centered mass where it effects ride quality the least.
5. Use of light weight, small, low cost and high powered outrunners
 
Greetings everyone,
I’m looking at purchasing a 1500 watt dd hub. I’ve come to two options. The edge, which labikes is selling but there website is down. Or the qsmotor. I emailed qsmotor and they gave me a quote of $110 for the motor and $91 shipping from China. Which isn’t bad imho. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this hub motor and how would it compare to the edge motor? It seems like they are pretty much the same motor?

Thnx!
 
I like the MXUS 3000W because it was the first ever motor I bought, it is a beast!
Ideal torque king for that motor is a 3T or 4T winding motor, in a 17" motorcycle rim and Shinko tire. Bicycle rims are good too. Here is the conversion between the two, written by Lunacycle - https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors/
16-inch Pirelli moped tires on wide 20-inch bicycle rims (they fit!). The best selection in moped tires is for the 17-inch and 19-inch sizes, and visually…a 17-inch moped interface is very similar to a bicycle 20-inch, and the 19-inch moped interface is very similar to a 24-inch bicycle interface.




QSMotor $200 is a great price shipped to your door!
You'd have to confirm that its a similar motor to leafbikes, otherwise you never do know.
What size is the width? 27H, 35H, 50H, 55H
Number and size of laminations.
Steel or Alum Stator

Here is https://lunacycle.com/ article on the Edge 1500W, also an article of Leaf motors.
https://www.electricbike.com/edge-1500w/






https://laebike.com/
We are currently moving our inventory to another storage facility. We will not be showcasing or sellling any items until further notice. Please keep in mind when contacting us by email or telephone, we will be checking messages intermediately, expect a delay in our response time. Stay Tuned for more updates! CONTACT-> laebikes@gmail.com | (323) 537-4336 | www.laebike.com

You could also buy a good quality 1500W motor from leafbike or leafmotor. Lots of reviews on ES about it.
https://www.leafbike.com/
Leafbike 1500W is $179
s/h quote below. That is to Canada though, no doubt to USA is the same price.
Standard Air Transport / $105.00 ( Parcel Weight: 8.100 KG )
It takes about 5 - 7 business days to deliver - By air ( Shipping Price: First 0.50 KG : $25.00 / 0.50 KG : $5.00 )

http://www.leafmotor.com/


Raven505 said:
Greetings everyone,
I’m looking at purchasing a 1500 watt dd hub. I’ve come to two options. The edge, which labikes is selling but there website is down. Or the qsmotor. I emailed qsmotor and they gave me a quote of $110 for the motor and $91 shipping from China. Which isn’t bad imho. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this hub motor and how would it compare to the edge motor? It seems like they are pretty much the same motor?

Thnx!
 
I have two edge motors. Both test good on ebike tester. The first one was over heated halls are good. But all the magnets were unglued. As I removed the magnets I broke 5. As they are live. So was more careful with second ( as far as heat ) and it makes noise now Got it warm. But not to hot. I tested with ebike tester and tested fine. So maybe loose magnets. Will open later. What QS motor you have a link ?
 
I agree with 999zip999 in his question:
What QS motor you have a link ?

999zip999 said:
I have two edge motors. Brought test good on ebile tester. The first one was over heated halls good. But all the magnets were unglued. As I removed the magnets I broke 5. As they are live. So was more careful with second and it makes noise now Got it warm. But not to hot. I tested with ebike tester and tedted fine. So maybe loose magnets. Will open later. What QS motor you have a link ?

Now the translation begins..... don't worry I have the time to try the translation.


999zip999 has two edge motors.

Translation of "Brought test good on ebile tester."
Most likely what you meant is this statement ?You bought them to test the motors yourself?
I doubt you meant ?You bought then brought them for Justin at ebikes.ca to test?
***I did notice on http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html that Justin did do a test on the Leaf 35H 5T, which is probably the Leaf 1500W. Good for the thread starter to play with in the simulator. OK Now onto the translation of our good friend 999zip999.

The first one overheated, but the halls are good.
However the magnets ended up unglued due to the overheating.
When you removed the magnets, five broke.
?As they are live? which could mean "they are still magnetized (they havent lost their magnetic abilities)"

So with the second motor you were more careful.

?and it makes noise now? which could mean well I dont know what you mean there.
You got that second motor warm but not hot.
So I think what you mean there is you got the second motor warm but not hot, and now it makes noise.

You tested your second motor (that got warm but not hot) that now makes a noise.
So maybe you have loose magnets.

You will open it later to determine.
 
Our good friend Spinningmagnet posted a few things on the Edge 1500W.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=66489&p=1229237&hilit=edge+leaf+1500W#p1229237

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=81757&p=1352837&hilit=edge+1500W#p1352837
The Edge has the thinner laminations (battery watts get converted into less heat), and thicker motor phase wires, and most importantly...the cast aluminum stator support that acts as a heat sponge. No moving parts, no leaks (like adding oil-cooling), and never needs to be topped-off once a year (like Ferro-Fluid, although...I did add FF to my Edge motor).
 
I cleaned up my spellings. Sorry. Plus I just have eye glasses from. .99 cent store.
I agree with markz as my muxus v3 can handle lot more abuse. But is a boat anchor. Does QS make an aluminum stator in 40mm magnets ? Plus Vito stands behind product.
 
At this power level, i'd compare to the Leafmotor.
A little more expensive, but a very light and efficient motor. QS motors tend to be rather heavy and big for the power they produce.
 
I contacted Leafbike about there motor. They want $85 shipping. So, $179 plus $85 is $264. I’m going to email qsmotor this week and see if I can get more details about there 1500 watt motor. Also, going to see if they make a 40mm motor. They do make a 2000 watt motor but it has 150mm dropouts. I’m going to get more detailed information on that motor to. I will let you know when I know more.
I was thinking about the Mxus 3000 watt motor but the weight and power seems a little over the top for my uses. Max wattage 2500 and 3000 watt upper upper limit. This is going to be a commuter. I want reliable simple mostly 20 mph upwards of 30, tops 35 (rare). I would like more torque than speed. So, I would be happy with a top speed of 30 if I could more low end torque. I’m going to be putting this on a 26” wheel. Anyways, thnx for the reply!
 
Nep...got it thnx! I read that page you did on the leaf. I kind of wanted the aluminum stator. Now I’m thinking it may not matter. I’m not going to be pushing a lot of watts. Like I said 2500 Watts max 99% of the time. I remember you saying that this motor can handle 2500 continueous. If it can do that then I should be fine in the heat department.
 
Neptron...if you don’t mind me asking. If I ordered a leaf motor and wanted lower top speed and more torque. Would you say the 13*5pr 10*6 would be a good choice? Or just stay with the 16*4 731rpm?
 
QS motor so far, have a better copper fill. This is making for higher power capability.

I am planning to buy one of their new 205 H35 to try on a light bike. 8kg is similar to the H35 Crystalyte series that I have fed 10kw burst in acceleration. I believe the QS can take more because of a better copper fill.

@Raven505
Winding doesn't change much to the torque that a motor is capable of. It is the copper mass that defines saturation point. If one of the different windings available has a tad more copper weight, it will be capable of a tad more power. If one motor in particular is wound tighter, thus weighting a little more, it will be capable of a little more power.

We choose a motor winding for speed required, in relation to voltage and wheel size. For more power, we choose a heavier motor.
 
Do you have a battery in mind I always get one a little bigger then necessary so we can live a little longer. What controller there's a Bluetooth controller out there for your needs power velocity has some.12fet or ? With The CA adapter. Gps . More money more money. What bike ? Where you put in the battery ? Brakes ????
 
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