Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 09 2019 11:00am

Merlin wrote:
Aug 09 2019 8:55am
OK...
But please don't tell that the stock battery....
Iam afraid she will wake up and start limiting the power :lol: :mrgreen:
:bigthumb:
Last edited by Joachim on Aug 09 2019 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Merlin » Aug 09 2019 11:43am

:mrgreen:

She just likes me and don't restrict my bms :lol: :lol: :lol:


... But before you freak out. I have a range extender battery added ^^

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 09 2019 11:47am

Merlin wrote:
Aug 09 2019 11:43am
:mrgreen:

She just likes me and don't restrict my bms :lol: :lol: :lol:


... But before you freak out. I have a range extender battery added ^^
success with it :thumb:

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Nucular Electronics and MXUS hub motor wiring

Post by Peterfr12 » Aug 14 2019 8:37am

Hi all,

I purchased a MXUS 3kW hub motor and a Nucular 12F controller. It will be used for a recumbent bike and a 20s14p battery.
Sorry for the dumb questions!

From the hub motor there are several cables of different colors. There are yellow, green and blue thick phase wires which must be connected to the blue phase cables of the nucular controller. With my former em3ev setup I had to obviously match the color. Here it does not matter. Am I right?

Then the hub has 2 set of temperature and hall wires: white (temp), green, blue, red, black and yellow. Obviously, I just use one set. From the Nucular controller there are also 6 wires of different colors: yellow, green, orange, white, black and red. I guess I have to match the red wire of Nucular with the red wire of the hub, black with the black, white with the white, yellow with yellow, green with green and the blue wire of the hub with the orange wire of the controller.
Am I right?

Thanks for your answers.

Best regards,

Peterfr

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by VasiliSk » Aug 14 2019 9:03am

yes
yes, but actually you need only red, black and white matched, other dont care

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Re: Nucular Electronics and MXUS hub motor wiring

Post by jameswalker » Aug 16 2019 3:10am

Peterfr12 wrote:
Aug 14 2019 8:37am
Hi all,

I purchased a MXUS 3kW hub motor and a Nucular 12F controller. It will be used for a recumbent bike and a 20s14p battery.
Sorry for the dumb questions!

From the hub motor there are several cables of different colors. There are yellow, green and blue thick phase wires which must be connected to the blue phase cables of the nucular controller. With my former em3ev setup I had to obviously match the color. Here it does not matter. Am I right?

Then the hub has 2 set of temperature and hall wires: white (temp), green, blue, red, black and yellow. Obviously, I just use one set. From the Nucular controller there are also 6 wires of different colors: yellow, green, orange, white, black and red. I guess I have to match the red wire of Nucular with the red wire of the hub, black with the black, white with the white, yellow with yellow, green with green and the blue wire of the hub with the orange wire of the controller.
Am I right?

Thanks for your answers.

Best regards,

Peterfr
Hi Peter,

I have ordered MXUS 3k plus 12F Nucular, so we will have the same setup.

I will post up how I get on!

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by sn0wchyld » Aug 16 2019 9:09am

Merlin wrote:
Aug 08 2019 7:09pm
Merlin wrote:
Aug 08 2019 6:37am
shortening the throttle V we did also on adappto. 3v was perfect. i will try the PID settings but i think the cuttet voltage did the trick....i hope iam wrong =)
unfortunately i wasnt wrong :D

PID didnt do anything in acceleration from zero. (without the voltage cut)

But Surron peaks 8.5Kw, 80kph@50a flux with 58T.
So its pretty good. Of course Torque Throttle and smooth as butter :D

efficiency as expected to the stock surron controller way better. 28wh/km @ straight 50kph(gps)
Running 4Kw (70kph) for half an hour: controller 38°c - Motor 68°c

best upgrade ever for your surron =)
any idea what the stock controller wh/km was?

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Merlin » Aug 16 2019 9:35am

the "non X" is think around 10% less efficient. about the X Controller i cant say.

but as now a bunch (5 ppl) of my buddies riding the nucular we found that the consumption is between 10-15% off the "real capacity"

for example:

stock surron battery has something around 1800wh -usable- until bms cuts off@3v/cell
nucular shows a consumption around 1625wh.
if i recharge with satiator it charges back ~1825wh....~200wh less.

I know there are losses between battery and controller but 10% are 180/200wh or ~6-7km range.

for now we set up simply a lower wh in settings. But it means if you have 30wh/km on your display its in real 33wh/km

for riders who doenst count or arent experienced with numbers....
3wh difference is a 50kg girl rides same track, same speed as me with 95kg.

i dont know how or where the nuc calcs power or usage. vasiliy only can tell. but if this is the same parameter(s) it would be also 10% less (REAL) Power.....


Just fyi ...iam still pretty happy with the little nuc :mrgreen:

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 16 2019 11:20am

I think the sur-ron powertrain/motor originally not very efficient .. middle engine with reduction. A DD hub engine is running much more economically, I thought. on normal use my sur-ron nucular 12f is also 28Wh/km.

Stock sur-ron battery is in real life on a 90A controller more like 1750Wh,
cells do 2800mah/2700mah rather than 2900mah. think it is a deviation of 100 to 125Wh

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by madin88 » Aug 19 2019 3:41am

Merlin wrote:
Aug 16 2019 9:35am

but as now a bunch (5 ppl) of my buddies riding the nucular we found that the consumption is between 10-15% off the "real capacity"
I am one of them. The Battery is quasi empty while the controller shows 10%.
Having numbers as comparison from a different measuring device, like a CA + external shunt, would tell us if our expectations in terms of Wh had been a bit too optimistic or not.

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 19 2019 11:06am

I am going to run the original battery totally empty and see what the consumption according to the display is .
I had yesterday after 50km the stock battery compleet death-empty ,according to the display consumed 1400Wh and 28Wh per kilometer, battery was really dead empty :D

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by lukashanak » Aug 19 2019 1:38pm

Yes wh measurement is a little weird. Today I ride in Combined control mode instead of FOC like normal and on same way display shows about 30% more used wh but battery voltage was same like in FOC. So real used wh cca same but measured wh not. Looks like it needs better calibration.
Cyclone 4kW mid drive + Nucular 12F + 21s VTC5A = 12kW of fun :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by VasiliSk » Aug 19 2019 2:45pm

Controller measures phase current, and calculates battery later, however with high current ripple values may be inaccurate. later battery measure will be done with bms

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 19 2019 3:49pm

battery completely discharged and according to the display I have consumed 1603Wh, had it set to 1750Wh (2750Mahx11P) apparently the Panasonic PF cells in real life under a load between 5 and 10A discharge per cell around 2520Mah or the measurement is not 100% but I don't think it's in very much.
Looks almost good to me and this is beter


the stock sur-ron battery would then not have 31.9Ah but 27.8Ah .
Image
Image

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Merlin » Aug 19 2019 9:26pm

2,81v/cell is pretty deep. stock battery cuts off 3.0v ?!

looks like you are just guessing. after this discharge you need to charge it with something that reads wh :P

i bet my left ball that using a satiator your charge will end up ~1800wh
180-200wh difference is the ~10% we are talking about.... 6-8km difference. a looooong walk of shame :mrgreen:

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 20 2019 2:07am

Merlin wrote:
Aug 19 2019 9:26pm
2,81v/cell is pretty deep. stock battery cuts off 3.0v ?!

looks like you are just guessing. after this discharge you need to charge it with something that reads wh :P

i bet my left ball that using a satiator your charge will end up ~1800wh
180-200wh difference is the ~10% we are talking about.... 6-8km difference. a looooong walk of shame :mrgreen:
ride it down til the bms trips...and shows 45V, the display can run on the battery the lights not so the bms cuts the power. The cells wil be like 3/3.1V if you measure straight on the cells.
Recharge no problems.


you can probably reload it somewhere between 1700 and 1800Wh, but that does not mean that this can also be used. a Panasonic PF that gets discharged with more than 1C / 3Amp often gives only 2650 to 2700Mah (4.18V down to 3V) and then you have not included the losses from battery to controller and motor.


if the cells fall below 3.5V the internal resistance also rises quite well and you also lose a lot of energy in the form of heat, which will not work very positively with 176 cells so close together in a sleeve. A loose cell testing is fun but in a battery with 174 cells everything becomes really different.

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Merlin » Aug 20 2019 10:34pm

Joachim wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:07am

ride it down til the bms trips...and shows 45V, the display can run on the battery the lights not so the bms cuts the power. The cells wil be like 3/3.1V if you measure straight on the cells.

i measured. nucular display show a bit more voltage as it is. (4 installed allready)
67.2v straight at battery is 67.4@display. If my display would show 45v it would be below 2.81v
i have also a balance lead at my lmx battery and that shows also less voltage (quality multimeter)


Recharge no problems. (stock bms?) our l1e have not the first series problems with "charger wont start" if its below xy voltage


you can probably reload it somewhere between 1700 and 1800Wh,
thats what i think if you use a "good/precise" charger or ca with calibrated shunt just to check whats going in.....

but that does not mean that this can also be used. a Panasonic PF that gets discharged with more than 1C / 3Amp often gives only 2650 to 2700Mah
right. but i think/hope your end of ride while bms tripped doesnt mean you cutted it off on full throttle? i thought you have run the last mile on very low power until it cuts off (45v) If so, discharge is something around 1A/cell and then we get more wh out of a (new) cell like yours.
I tested for example sony vtc6 with 1a discharge and got 3100Ah out of it discharging to 2.99v


(4.18V down to 3V) and then you have not included the losses from battery to controller and motor.
*shrug shoulders* we are poking in the dark :D
very theoretical. All i want/need is the wh usage/battery bar to real world using. so if my battery charges back more then nuc used. i dont care.
my 2.75kwh i have set to 2.5kwh and i can ride very precise to 0%/0wh left and the bike rolls on wot only up to 10kph.
even if wh shoes wrong usage, even power shows too much or 10% less. i dont care. Bike runs best as possible. statistics suck and i dont get it why there are no fixes out yet for simple stuff. before fixing, vasiliys todo list grows with (for now) unnessesary new features in my opinion. 2wd drive, smaller controller cases and stuff like that. controller is TINY enough, 2wd users are 0,1% of all users.


if the cells fall below 3.5V the internal resistance also rises quite well and you also lose a lot of energy in the form of heat, which will not work very positively with 176 cells so close together in a sleeve. A loose cell testing is fun but in a battery with 174 cells everything becomes really different.
i dont know how hot will be your pack. but a 35°c cell/pack performs as its best comparing to a 20°c pack.
iam not sure if IR is rising that much (have you numbers?...i think from full to empty its something about 6mΩ). heat comes from its naturaly IR. High IR - quicker heatup, more vdrop. earlier too much heat.

iam pulling 200a (peak 2sec max) from 20700 sanyos. never measured above 40°c on the pack.

our surron with vtc6 addon (170A peak) is because of the bag slightly better cooled and the vtc6 itself has way better iR.
even on a hot day freaking out at the throttle i didnt get much more then 35°c.

iam not sure yet if you replaced your pack ALL cells?! if so, why not with better cells?
correct me if iam wrong. i thought you did maybe i read that somewhere else?!

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 21 2019 10:11am

I run the stock battery and the battery gets hot!

done hundreds of tests and knows how the pf performs.


As a joke, I will sometimes convert my test set-up so that it can be discharged with a continuous current of 50 Amps (4500+ Mah discharge per cell for stock sur-ron battery)... i can also discharge a 7S-1P with 5A continue....how much mah wil the pf give from 4.2V-3V ??

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Cheburator » Aug 21 2019 11:52pm

I have Eaton APR48-3G with 54V output. Is it too high to charge 14S battery through motor?

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by John in CR » Aug 23 2019 9:57pm

You're killing your battery with such deep discharges. I've only fully discharged once in the past 10 years, which is part of the reason I still have some Sony VTC1's still alive and driving an ebike after 11 years of use. The other part of the equation is low max charge voltage, less than 4.1V/cell. I commonly run in the 40-90% SOC range.

Also, Vasily answered why you have the discrepancy in charge vs discharge energy. It's calculating usage based on phase current, though he is planning to have the BMS measure consumption for more precise measurement. Sure we lose some energy from the charger output to heat, but that % is pretty low. If you start with energy coming from the wall outlet, a 10% loss to what's actually stored in the battery is probably pretty good, and may even be optimistic.

It sounds like you have enough experience with your battery that voltage alone gives you a very good idea of your pack's SOC.

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by ecross » Aug 29 2019 2:40am

lukashanak wrote:
Aug 08 2019 12:39am
Yes, FOC Ki is integral therm of FOC mode PID regulation.

Things i've done for fast throttle response:
Running torque mode
In control modes acceleration limit set to 0
Shortened my throttle so max volt on WOT is only 2.8 not 4.4v and made auto throttle calibration for this voltage.
And adjusted PID. FOC Ki to 120.

But now is to much for me. Its more aggresive than my previous Sabvoton 72150 on same phase amps. On higher gears OK, but on low gears its dangerous...
-thanks for this info
-so this create a faster, aggresive throttle?
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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by jameswalker » Aug 31 2019 2:43am

What are the best control modes plus throttle config for wheelie control, would anyone know?

I am almost at the point where I can test this thing out for real! Hopefully tomorrow.

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Joachim » Aug 31 2019 12:43pm

jameswalker wrote:
Aug 31 2019 2:43am
What are the best control modes plus throttle config for wheelie control, would anyone know?

I am almost at the point where I can test this thing out for real! Hopefully tomorrow.
12F or 24F?
12F is not an easy to wheelie (Only 250A Phase) but depends on battery voltage ,your engine type and final drive ,hub engine or middrive?

my sur-ron with stock engine 12F nucular controller, 52T rear sprocket you can't make wheelies with

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by Merlin » Aug 31 2019 5:12pm

phase is only at slow speeds related. but any stock surron can wheelie...even in eco mode.
but yea....skills needed
and yea....power wheelies not possible. :D

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Re: Nucular Electronics owner's thread (setup infos, FW updates, links etc.)

Post by jameswalker » Sep 02 2019 3:28am

Its a 12F using a 4T MXUS.

I don't mind a bit of weight shifting to get the front lifted initially. I can happily wheelie without a motor :)

I am more interested in decent control of the throttle during the wheelie.

Should I start saving for the 24F?!

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