2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

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2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 02 2019 5:15pm

Howdy folks.

I've been haunted by flat tires due to goatheads and have been doing very little riding due to it for the past 3 years.
Spent hundreds of dollars on "flat proof" bicycle oriented solutions over the years to no avail. That list includes the beloved marathon plus, slime, stans, tire liners, etc. Nothing lasts long on these roads. The only thing i have not tried is 'tire in a tire', suggested by amberwolf et al.

I decided that moto tires were the most ideal way out of this mess. I don't see motorcycle riders pulled over to change out a tire because of goatheads. Never changed a tire on a car because of a goathead. So my conclusion is: more rubber = more better.

Recently spent about $175 buying various motorcycle tires to see which one had the best rubber to weight ratio. These were cheap on a site called 'treatland'. A lot cheaper than puncture proof bicycle tires, actually!

I'm not covering knobby tires here - just street tires with nice efficient treads - because motorcycle tires already have punishingly bad tire friction on a bike!

Not included in this comparison is a Schwalbe 20" x ~2" tire, which had a 5mm of pin protrusion in the center of the tread, and a vee rubber 16 x 2.0" that had 5mm of protrusion and weighed ~2lbs. The general verdict is that if the tire is under 3lbs, it's garbage for this purpose. Might as well buy a BMX tire at that point.

On to the tests..

Here is the highly scientific device i used to measure the length of rubber on each tire :lol:
tire-stabber.jpg
tire-stabber.jpg (236.21 KiB) Viewed 1304 times
First up is a Hutchinson Spherus. I was very excited about this tire because it has a bicycle-like tread and won't stand out to the lawmen on my already goofy looking bike.
hutchinson-spherus.jpg
Sadly, this is basically a bicycle tire. It also looks more like a 2 inch wide tire.. it is very tall and rather narrow..

Next up is a Mitas MC2, which was recommended to me by treatland in an email to their sales team. I was told that this had low rolling resistance and that solar vehicle teams loved it.
mitas-MC2.jpg
This is actually a very impressive tire, and yes... it is hard, so perhaps the low rolling friction bit is the real deal?

Next up.. a Shinko 714 recommended by a member here.
shinko-714.jpg
I have to say i wasn't very impressed with the protrusion on the sidewall, considering the weight of the tire.

Next up is a tire that is popular on this forum, the Pirelli ML75.
pirelli-ml75.jpg
Super impressive stab test result! also the same weight as the Shinko! But a bit softer than the Shinko, and i imagine it will have a lot of tire friction as a result.

One interesting thing is that 'tire ply' basically means nothing. The ML75 is the thickest, but rated as 2 ply.

Here is a group shot of the tires to illustrate their differences.
tire-group-shot.jpg
tire-group-shot.jpg (252.29 KiB) Viewed 1304 times

So what's the winner? for me, the Mitas MC2 because of it's nice spherical shape ( seems ideal for hard cornering ), theoretically low rolling resistance, acceptible weight, and coming in at nearly half the price of the Pirelli. I believe that the harder compound will make the 0.5mm discrepancy between the Pirelli not matter, as the rubber will compress once you sit on the bike.

But the Pirelli is a fantastic if you need a 2.5" width or need the sticky rubber! if you're looking for the best rubber to weight ratio.. that's the one!

Two other tires that looked appealing but were not tested were..
Continental Contigo! - only 3lbs, so i expected to be disappointed.
Heidenau M4 - no weight listed, more of an "all season" type tire.. probably has bad rolling resistance, but looks like a quality tire.

Of course, what happens on the road and in the *cough* lab are going to be two different things. I only wanted to know how thick the tire is, not it's riding characteristics. But for me, there's no use in good riding characteristics if the damn thing pops every 5 miles. Hopefully this has been informative to y'all.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by 2WheelsMovesTheSoul » Jan 04 2019 1:19pm

FWIW you might wanna look at these:
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/hei ... oped-tires

I bought a set for my old custom 72v 3,000w A2Beast Metro after a few flats. For the following 6 months I rode that bike, I never had another flat. They are a bit noisy past 30-35mph.

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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 04 2019 1:39pm

That looks like a generously beefy tire. Would you mind giving them a poke right in the center in the name of science?

( yes, i will be riding on my poked tires. The little prick i gave them is actually smaller than the base of the large goatheads i encounter frequently. I've pulled over a thousand goatheads out of a marathon plus and the tire's integrity is still good. )

I plan to do 45mph, and maybe even 60mph a couple of times just to test some aerodynamic fairings this spring, so the knobby heidenau simply won't do. Sounds like a fantastic tire for offroading tho.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by 2WheelsMovesTheSoul » Jan 04 2019 1:52pm

Sure, I've still got them up in the rafters. Will post results on Monday.

Start:
KIMG0583.JPG
Poked:
KIMG0579.JPG
How much stuck out:
KIMG0582.JPG
Last edited by 2WheelsMovesTheSoul on Jan 16 2019 6:29pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 04 2019 2:08pm

Oh cool. And if you don't mind, a weight measurement and side poke would be great.

I'll add your result to the first post.

Maybe we can collectively poke 'n weigh our way into a nearly complete list which will become a sticky post about tires later on.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 04 2019 2:40pm

ps, it would help to also have some pokes and weighs on 20" bicycle tires for contrast. if anyone has a marathon plus or equivalent supposed puncture proof tire, let's add the data to this case.

Make sure you measure your tack with a caliper first. It should be 11mm. Not sure if these are standardized across the world... probably not. If you don't have a 11mm tack or pin, that's fine. I will adjust for that in the first post.

Also, i will ride my selected tire through a place here in Utah mountain bikers call 'goathead gulch' with the Mitas on the rear of the bike, and show the aftermath as a demonstration of why we need thick tires on our rides.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by Smoke » Jan 04 2019 4:31pm

That Mitas MC2 sounds perfect for me. Just to be clear, these fit on a 20" BMX rim, correct?
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 04 2019 5:02pm

Smoke wrote:
Jan 04 2019 4:31pm
That Mitas MC2 sounds perfect for me. Just to be clear, these fit on a 20" BMX rim, correct?
Yes, 16" in motorcycle size = 20" in bicycle size. You will want a rim that is 24mm-32mm internally to match the recommended rim size for these tires.. stated as 1" or 1.5" internal rim width on the markings of some of these tires.

12" moto tires fit a 16" wheel and 20" moto tires fit a 24" wheel.
Subtracting 4" from the wheel size seems to be the rule. An 18 inch bike rim probably fits a 14" moto tire and so forth.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by Smoke » Jan 04 2019 5:50pm

I have Blank Generation XL rims that are 40mm wide, do you think they would stretch?

If not, what is a good 36 hole rim for those tires?
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 04 2019 6:01pm

40mm internally would be best with a 2.5 inch or wider tire.
Beware though.. much wider than 2.5 inches and on a bike with a 135mm dropout, you have new problems..
1) are the rear tubes even that wide? get the caliper out and check.
2) at what point does the bike chain collide with the tire? Most likely beyond the 2.5" zone.
3) If you have a bike designed for 26" wheels, the fat 20" tire probably rubs against the vbrake posts in the rear or front. The cure for this involves an angle grinder. Not that i know anything about that.... :lol:

There's hundreds of 36 spoke 20" rims out there. I like alex rims for their good combination of price to strength. You don't have to be picky. I've mounted moto tires on a variety of random bike rims.

Send me a PM if you need more help with a rim. We wanna talk moped tires here.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by Smoke » Jan 04 2019 6:06pm

I'm building a frame so one way or another it will fit.

I think I should probably buy tires and see if I can make it work, then buy rims if I can't.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by minde28383 » Jan 07 2019 7:25pm

I found this thread when searched ''Mitas'' MC 2. Very interesting thread.
Never saw somebody poke tires with nail to measure puncture resistance. Don't have proper words to describe it but in short - good job.
Does not 'Slime' (if somebody does not know it is like glue which can be poured inside tire tube) works in bicycle tires. Wouldn't it be suitable to be used in mc heavy wheel?

My too laying eyes on Mitas MC2 but on 3.25'' width. And it's on narrow side for my preference with 205 3kw motor.

What's the reason you testing so narrow 16'' diameter tires? Is it because rolling resistance or is it limit of rear fork your main concern, or specific looks play the main role?

My understanding is that wider tires are heavier and possibly more rolling resistant but it can have lower psi ie more puncture resistant and there might be softer ride too due bigger volume and lower pressure.

Regarding
Mitas MC2 . Tire treat looks nice from pic, but isn't it good only for asphalt, clean asphalt?

I can get Mitas MC2 at discount but I'm not sure it's worth installing such not universal tire at all, middle tread has nothing to grip so it needs clean grippy surface, what if road surfaces changes.

I had experience with Mitas MC 7. When I inspected it in shop I liked it a lot but found it not be present in my required measurements. It is asphalt tire and is wider compared with 50/50 (universal) tires.

Pirelli moto Mandrake MT 90/80 16 is good choice (see pic)? Is Mandrake MT 90/80 16 wider than Mitas MC 2 3.25''? What do you think?

/////
Offload tire might be not relevant here but maybe somebody will find it useful.
If my rides would be only off-road than my choice - Mitas C-01 3.5''.
Last edited by minde28383 on Apr 14 2019 9:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 07 2019 7:35pm

minde28383 wrote:
Jan 07 2019 7:25pm
What's the reason you testing so narrow 16'' diameter tires? Is it because rolling resistance or is it limit of rear fork your main concern, or specific looks play the main role?
I picked small ones because i see people commonly using 2.5 inch-ish tires for certain ebikes. I wanted the lightest and lowest friction i could get, so i focused on 2.25 primarily. I imagine what i found scales upwards.. ie wider tires may have the same amount, or more rubber.
minde28383 wrote:
Jan 07 2019 7:25pm
My understanding is that wider tires are heavier and possibly more rolling resistant but it can have lower psi ie more puncture resistant and there might be softer ride too due bigger volume and lower pressure.
There's a lot of disagreement as to whether low or high PSI means more flats. I'm not convinced either way. I'm on another planet thinking that rubber thickness is the key. How wide or tall your tire is is another thing.
minde28383 wrote:
Jan 07 2019 7:25pm
I can get Mitas MC2 at discount but I'm not sure it's worth installing such not universal tire at all, middle tread has nothing to grip so it needs clean grippy surface, what if road surfaces changes.
Well, the Pirelli being thicker and softer than the mitas might be your ideal choice if you aren't obsessed with rolling resistance like i am. My target bike will weight about 80 pounds and only do 45mph.. so not reaching into motorcycle land too far.

If you do some pokes 'n weighs, i'd like to see them too so that this thread can be fleshed out to include more than the ~$175 i was willing to spend in the name of science :)
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 15 2019 11:09am

IMG_20190114_161534.jpg
Recently sent the pin through a brand new 16 inch x 1.95 Maxxis Hookworm. Found out that there is 1mm less of total thickness, versus a Schwalbe Marathon Plus ( which is the benchmark for puncture proof-ness AFAIK ).

The compound was softer than a marathon plus in the pin push test.

So a hookworm might look like a beefy tire from the outside, but i'd call it an average or above average bicycle tire.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by minde28383 » Jan 15 2019 12:00pm

Especially if sticking to light bicycle tires, but these solutions works with any moped/motocycle tire with inner tube. If you go tubeless than slime is the only option. But going tubeless won't prevent flats but it will make easier more quick flat tire fix on the go in the middle of street or nowhere, of course if you have good air pump with you and puncture/hole is not too big.

If you found your favorable tire (with inner tube) but you like only certain things about your tire but dislike other things.
like: shape, price, compound, tread
dislike: thin tire (not enough rubber), suspect easy to get tire flats.

You can use even few solution at the same time. So it would be more bullet proof.
I am aware about several options:

Tire liner installed in bicycle tire - pic1
Tire liner sold separably - pic2
Second tire tread - pic3
Put slime inside tube - pic4
Attachments
liner1.JPG
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pic2.JPG
pic2.JPG (61.28 KiB) Viewed 1110 times
pic3.JPG
pic3.JPG (66.02 KiB) Viewed 1110 times
pic4.JPG
pic4.JPG (46.79 KiB) Viewed 1110 times
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » Jan 15 2019 12:26pm

I've had sealant prevent patching a tube in the field when it fails to do it's job after taking too many hits. Made things significantly worse for me.
Have also had a tire liner wear a crescent-shaped mark into a tube and popped it in a short time. It also failed to prevent a side flat. This is because these tire liners only protect about 1 inch of tread. It will fail you in a turn.

I have not tried tire within a tire because i feel that inexact alignment or cutting could create a small bump or wobble in the tire. Since i have to travel on 40mph+ roads with no bike lane, this could be an issue. Have not seen a good way to lock the tires together yet, because they could easily shift if the tire had low pressure. The last thing i want to be doing is taking a 20 pound motor wheel off a bike to repair it, 50 miles from home.

Here is what i have pulled out of a tire with tweezers after a single ride here in Salt Lake City, Utah. The metal piece was lodged in sideways, and surprisingly was not the cause of this particular flat tire.
schwalbes_rule.jpg
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by minde28383 » Jan 15 2019 1:05pm

I see what you got after single ride. wow. If you ride such roads where there are so many hard sharp spokes, some metal wirem, and you ride far from home than I would look nowhere else than to moped tire and beefy one. At least 2.75'', better 3'', 3.25'' or even 3.5''. Really if your roads are so aggressive for tires than look nowhere but into heavy wide moped. You will add 4 pounds to your bike but at least you might make some real change.

40mhp is quit fast. I too noticed that in such speed wheel balance matters, so yes, because of second second diy tire tread can make shaky ride.

Regarding liners cutting tubes.
Yes, I heard that PVC liners cut tubes. If cheap PVC lining is cutting into tube than sanding sharp edges might make difference. There are a lot of PVC brands, maybe one PVC compound is some better than another. Quality lining should be almost like a rubber but hart to penetrate. Sime time ago i had some tires with Kevlar.
Regarding PVC lining width, there are 25mm (1 inch) and there is 40mm for regular narrow bicycle tires.
Also there is PVC lining for fat bike 4 inch tires. It could almost wrap around inner tire radius and protect not only tread but sides too.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by e-beach » Jan 15 2019 1:10pm

neptronix wrote:
Jan 15 2019 12:26pm
I've had sealant prevent patching a tube in the field when it fails to do it's job after taking too many hits. Made things significantly worse for me. Have also had a tire liner wear a crescent-shaped mark into a tube and popped it in a short time. It also failed to prevent a side flat. This is because these tire liners only protect about 1 inch of tread. It will fail you in a turn........
+1 on all of the above. I finally stopped using any tire/tube protection because they just don't seem to work. (although I have never put a tire tread into another tire.)

I am still waiting for a tire company genius to finally make and market steel belted e-bike tires. Heavy is ok if they don't go flat for 2 or 3 years of riding.



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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by minde28383 » Jan 15 2019 2:09pm

My theoretical estimate is that if you are using wide 3'' and wider tire than you have flats the same as you would ride moped or motorcycle if ridden on roads, of course if you do some off-road than heavy hub might compress tire and make an pinch.

If there is no reasonable option to escape flats with using tubed tires than only option left is to go tubeless and fix flats on road, but this option does not appeal to me, because I don't see my self fixing tire 10km from home. I rather pull my scooter to some strangers yard, ask him if it can stay for an hour or two. Go home, take car, go to the yard, retrieve scooter in trunk back to home and fix it home. That's my plan. But in real situations I never did so. I just pushed my bike what ever distance home. The hardest distance is pushing it through crowds because you being asked why you don't ride, is it broken. It does not even have to be EV transport. You can't push any bike. You will be asked why you don't ride it.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by grindz145 » Jan 16 2019 8:49am

Thanks for this thread Nep, it is really helpful. It sounds pedestrian, but flat tires on ebikes have been a serious issue for me. After riding motorcycles for more than 100k miles, and only getting a single rear flat, I couldn't understand why bicycle tires are so delicate.

Your photo of the hookworms is painful, because even with a puncture strip, I ended up with flat after flat. If you watch my old videos from 2014 I get something like 5 flats in less than 5000 miles. The hookworms are fantastic lightweight baloon tires for urban-assault bikes, but I think it's worth shying away from them, despite handling characteristics.

FWIW: for lightweight, more bicycle-like ebikes, the shwalbe marathon plus has treated me extremely well on over 4000 miles I have put on them this past year. I also use a tube with stans-no tubes or similar tubeless tire sealant which creates a really awesome overall solution. After freezing my fingers off last year in the cold trying to change flats, I won't take shortcuts anymore on tires.

This is also one more great reason to select a wheel size compatible with motorcycle tires.

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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by fechter » Jan 16 2019 9:54am

I have a 16" moped tire on my A2B. It has survived all kinds of thorns but did flat when it caught a 3" framing nail. Nothing is flat proof, but if the rubber is thick enough and tough enough, not much will get through. Other than the nail, nothing has phased it and has been on some pretty thorny trails. The stock kenda tires go flat if you just look at them wrong.
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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by The Toecutter » May 22 2019 8:36pm

neptronix wrote:
Jan 02 2019 5:15pm
Next up is a Mitas MC2, which was recommended to me by treatland in an email to their sales team. I was told that this had low rolling resistance and that solar vehicle teams loved it.

mitas-MC2.jpg

This is actually a very impressive tire, and yes... it is hard, so perhaps the low rolling friction bit is the real deal?
Did the representative you spoke with give you any coefficient of rolling resistance numbers for this tire?

Since my application requires it to be able to be pedaled easily like a normal velomobile with the motor off, I need a Crr of 0.008 or less. Most motorcycle/moped tires have a Crr of 0.015 to 0.020, which would more than negate the advantage of even the most aerodynamic velomobile body vs a normal bike when propelled by human power. So far online searches for this number for the MC2 have turned up no info.

I don't mind the extra weight and the inertia losses it brings, as the low Crr figure is most important for maintaining cruising speed anyway.

For comparison, typical car tires have a Crr value between 0.008 and 0.015, while bicycle tires are around Crr 0.004 to 0.009.

I did find the following info for this tire though:

https://tyres.buycarparts.co.uk/mitas-3 ... 496-572952

Rated for 62 mph and 375 lbs. If the rolling resistance is truly nice and low, this Mitas MC2 would be perfect for an electric bike with highway speeds in mind.
Last edited by The Toecutter on May 22 2019 8:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » May 22 2019 8:41pm

e-beach wrote:
Jan 15 2019 1:10pm
+1 on all of the above. I finally stopped using any tire/tube protection because they just don't seem to work. (although I have never put a tire tread into another tire.)

I am still waiting for a tire company genius to finally make and market steel belted e-bike tires. Heavy is ok if they don't go flat for 2 or 3 years of riding.
If only! I've pleaded with some tire makers to make a thicker bike tire, or even reproduce an old one they used to make.. there is zero interest..

How'd the tire in a tire trick work for you?
grindz145 wrote:
Jan 16 2019 8:49am
Thanks for this thread Nep, it is really helpful. It sounds pedestrian, but flat tires on ebikes have been a serious issue for me. After riding motorcycles for more than 100k miles, and only getting a single rear flat, I couldn't understand why bicycle tires are so delicate.
You're welcome, sir. Not a surprise to hear you say that since you've done some serious touring. Range anxiety is one thing.. tire anxiety.. that's another!
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by neptronix » May 22 2019 8:47pm

The Toecutter wrote:
May 22 2019 8:36pm
Did the representative you spoke with give you any coefficient of rolling resistance numbers for this tire?
No, and i know they're not going to know.
When i switched to the MC2 from the crappy 2.0 vee rubber thing, the watts did climb, but i can't give you an exact figure on how much they climbed.

If one of you wants to donate to me a bicycle trainer, i'd be happy to do some tests to figure out which has the least rolling resistance. I still have all the tires. I'd like to know for my own reasons of optimizing efficiency.

However, given that the MC2 was popular with solar racing teams, i'm sure there is a reason for that.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: 2019 16" moped/scooter tire pop-off: which is the most puncture proof?

Post by The Toecutter » May 22 2019 8:59pm

neptronix wrote:
May 22 2019 8:47pm

No, and i know they're not going to know.
When i switched to the MC2 from the crappy 2.0 vee rubber thing, the watts did climb, but i can't give you an exact figure on how much they climbed.
I couldn't get a Crr value for this tire, but I did find figures for a different Vee Rubber tire:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... vee-8-2016

So Crr may possibly be somewhere around 0.008 for your old BMX tire if it uses similar materials and construction to the above tire from the same brand. If the watts climbed using the MC2, that's not an encouraging sign.

What pressure were you using for the MC2 and what is its max rated pressure?
If one of you wants to donate to me a bicycle trainer, i'd be happy to do some tests to figure out which has the least rolling resistance. I still have all the tires. I'd like to know for my own reasons of optimizing efficiency.
If I had one, I would.
However, given that the MC2 was popular with solar racing teams, i'm sure there is a reason for that.
Indeed. However, even the lowest rolling resistance moped or motorcycle tire available could still have a Crr value of more than 0.010 simply because there's not a very high bar to exceed when it comes to the competition. Racing teams will take what they can get.

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