Bike Rim/Tire

maarkmohamed

100 W
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
114
I know this has been talked about before, but im very confused of it all. Simply put, i currently have a 36h rear hub (for a motoped) and a 36h front hub that fits my front fork. And now im trying to figure out a rim/spokes/tires to go with. Im hearing that bicycle tires go flat often and wear to quick. I dont want to deal with the same problem. Initially i tried getting 17" moped rims and tires, unfortunately they were not able to be laced as i tried myself and had my local bike shop try, wouldnt work. So is there a bike rim i could go with that would be easy to lace Yet still allow me to run MC tires as some people have tried? For the most part i want to have slicks on because i will be mainly riding on streets. But i would also like the option to switch it out and put grippy tires for off road. ***note i will be using a mid drive motor and not a hub motor that will be laced with rim.
 
maarkmohamed said:
I know this has been talked about before, but im very confused of it all. Simply put, i currently have a 36h rear hub (for a motoped) and a 36h front hub that fits my front fork. And now im trying to figure out a rim/spokes/tires to go with. Im hearing that bicycle tires go flat often and wear to quick. I dont want to deal with the same problem. Initially i tried getting 17" moped rims and tires, unfortunately they were not able to be laced as i tried myself and had my local bike shop try, wouldnt work. So is there a bike rim i could go with that would be easy to lace Yet still allow me to run MC tires as some people have tried? For the most part i want to have slicks on because i will be mainly riding on streets. But i would also like the option to switch it out and put grippy tires for off road. ***note i will be using a mid drive motor and not a hub motor that will be laced with rim.

lots of ppl on here and motoped fb forum have laced moto rims such as prowheel playbike 17" and 19"rims, etc to bike hubs such as motoped etc.. but you must use custom moped nipples made by holmes hobbies with 9.5mm nipple heads to match the rim nipple hole and 12 or 13 gauge threads to match spoke diameter of bike hubs.. you could also run 24" bike rims with denzel ebike tires available from motoped dealer motocruzin.com that have a thicker moto casing for motor power durability.. or you could lace heavy duty, wide 20" bike rims with 16" moto tires (bike and moto rims / tires are measured differently).. since they have the same tire bead seat diameter, but this would make the bike lower than stock for better street aerodynamics but with less ground clearance for off-road riding.. how tall are you? I wanted to lower one of my motopeds a bit for street use because stock the seat height is really tall .. decide your optimal wheel diameter and we can help you move forward or recommend a wheel builder familiar with moto bike wheel building..

here are some threads of others that have built moto bike wheels :

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55458

https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql_permalink/?graphql_id=UzpfSTEwMDAwMzE2NzQ5MjUzODpWSzoxODE5NjE5OTgxNjAxODk3

you could also just buy a complete wheel set with denzel ebike tires from motocruzin and be done with it and out riding.. keep us posted on your motoped electric build:)
 
maarkmohamed said:
But i would also like the option to switch it out and put grippy tires for off road.
For that, just have two wheel sets built, one with each tire type. Otherwise it'll be enough of a PITA to swap tires you probably won't end up doing it as much as you would otherwise.


Without details given, I would guess the reason they "couldn't" lace the bike hub to the MC rim was they were using MC sized spokes for it, so they couldn't fit them thru the bike hub flange holes. (which on some hubs have enough spacing to drill them out to fit anyway, but if there isn't enough metal left then the much higher tensions required can rip the flange off the hub).

Or they didn't think to use washers on the rim's nipple holes if using bicycle sized spokes.

There are also nipples around (or can be made) that have threaded holes small enough for bike-sized spokes, but have outer flanges large enough for MC rims. HolmesHobbies used to carry those.

If the "wouldn't work" means something else, you'd have to be much more specific for us to help.
 
So to clear it up, when i laced the wheels, nipples fit perfectly through and sat flush on the rim just right. And i got the correct nipple size according to treatland they said get 5mm nipples and thats what i did. Also both me and the bicycle shop took measurements of the hub several times and we both ended up with just about the same measurements, where i personally had a problem was when i went to lace it and did a three cross pattern lacing (which we accounted for when sizing spokes) when i got to the last cross, the spokes didnt reach... And when i asked the bicycle shop why it wouldnt work they told me that the spoke holes on the rim were aligned differently and for that reason they didnt work with the hubs.... It would be a shame if we both didnt know what we were doing lol. And i watched a video on how to lace a 3 cross pattern rim, and tbh honest its very straight forward and easy....
 
maarkmohamed said:
So to clear it up, when i laced the wheels, nipples fit perfectly through and sat flush on the rim just right. And i got the correct nipple size according to treatland they said get 5mm nipples and thats what i did. Also both me and the bicycle shop took measurements of the hub several times and we both ended up with just about the same measurements, where i personally had a problem was when i went to lace it and did a three cross pattern lacing (which we accounted for when sizing spokes) when i got to the last cross, the spokes didnt reach... And when i asked the bicycle shop why it wouldnt work they told me that the spoke holes on the rim were aligned differently and for that reason they didnt work with the hubs.... It would be a shame if we both didnt know what we were doing lol. And i watched a video on how to lace a 3 cross pattern rim, and tbh honest its very straight forward and easy....

for the front wheel you could do a one or two cross lacing pattern.. for the rear just get longer spokes if needed, how short were you?? and do not tension any nipples until they are all laced.. moto rim spoke holes are often angled and dimpled so you need to account for that when measuring rim ERD effective rim diameter and calculating spoke length.. on the last page of the moto bike wheel thread I posted is link to another thread on here about wheel building tips, worth a read..
 
when i connected the spokes to the nipples i did only like 1 or two hand turns just to keep them on no tightening. And when i got to the the third cross, i cant remember exactly but i would say less then half a inch off... And for the rim diameter i didnt take it because it said in the product description the rim diameter so i assume the seller is right.
 
Also im about 5 foot 10 in height i havent measured myself in like years.. lol. On the other hand i live in Nj if you would know someone to deal with my headache.
 
maarkmohamed said:
when i got to the last cross, the spokes didnt reach... And when i asked the bicycle shop why it wouldnt work they told me that the spoke holes on the rim were aligned differently and for that reason they didnt work with the hubs....
If that's the issue, all you need is very slightly longer spokes. Might only be 1mm or so on each one (take the insufficiency in the length of the last spoke(s) and divide it amongst the total number of spokes).

You might already know this, but in case you don't: if it's a rear wheel, the rigthhand spokes will be shorter than the left, to give space for the sprocket cluster, so if the spokes get mixed together and it's not noticed, this same problem can occur).



Unless you mean the nipples themselves didn't line up with the spokes (due to the "dented in" nipple holes on many MC rims that force a specific angle). In that case, you might have to go with a different cross and spoke length that does allow the correct alignment. If no cross / length allows alignment, the hub itself might simply need larger flanges, which is easiest to fix with a different hub. (you can even build your own hub if you like; it's a common procedure for live-axle custom delta trikes, so you can follow the guides on sites for doing that.)



It would be a shame if we both didnt know what we were doing lol.
Unfortunatley it is common. ;) So I never assume anyone knows what they're doing, and ask all the basic questions where they seem necessary.

You might not believe the number of times I've helped people out with electrical/electronic system problems and asked essentialy "did you plug it in?", and get a baffled or embarassed reaction from them, because they hadn't. :/
 
maarkmohamed said:
And for the rim diameter i didnt take it because it said in the product description the rim diameter so i assume the seller is right.
Unfortunately the ERD listed for rims is not always correct. So measuring it is always better, if you have the rim in hand before ordering spokes. :)

Personally I assume sellers are always wrong until proven otherwise; it saves me a lot of grief, because so many of them have no idea what they're selling, or mistakes get made in data entry between the actual spec sheet and the web page, etc. (and too often the pages are copies of other pages that started out with wrong info.)
 
motoped rear hub is single speed with zero dish and same spoke length drive and non drive side..

the link I posted to fb motoped forum is the wheel builder I recommend and has built many of these type wheels for motoped and surron, etc.., located in Maine USA.. you could also try ebike builder drchopper in Philly..
 
Lol if they are incorrect about the ERD i would be pissed, because i lost money returning them and went through a great hassle. On the other hand you said the spokes are shorter on one side of the rear hub? We measured and they were both the same size i think i have pictures as well. I cant explain to you exactly what the bike shop said, they confirmed, it was the right size spoke length, he test fitted the nipples to see if they sit flush when i dropped off the rim, fit well..... so im honestly just not sure. But if i where to be honest i bet we both are wrong im just not sure exactly where we both went wrong. These pictures where taken when i measured the hub, and i only have pictures of one side because they were the same measurements for both sides. Tried adding pictures its not allowing me....
 
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
motoped rear hub is single speed with zero dish and same spoke length drive and non drive side..

the link I posted to fb motoped forum is the wheel builder I recommend and has built many of these type wheels for motoped and surron, etc.., located in Maine USA.. you could also try ebike builder drchopper in Philly..

I think i might contact them and see if they could help me out big thanks
 
How about i dont waste time talking about how i screwed the last one, and if you guys could, we just go one by one, which parts to buy and so this way i dont screw up.... Personally i dont want to go much smaller then a 24" rim, and so i saw one of the motoped owners go with the following 21 x 1.6 (MC) rim for the front and 19 x 1.85 (MC) for the rear. I like that its bigger on the front, i think its proper. So im okay going with that. Now if you guys could help me attach pictures, ill attach pics of my hub measurements so that you can see im not measuring wrong.
 
sv2qt0.jpg
 
Those are bicycle hubs. Use bicycle rims and spokes, or prepare to have all kinds of trouble from combining parts that were never meant to work together. It won't end well.

If you want to use parts that are as strong as moped wheels, use Halo SAS or Origin8 DAT-PRO65 rims and Maxxis Hookworm tires. Don't use thicker than 14ga spokes! They don't work right when they're too thick. 14-15ga double butted spokes are best if you can get them.
 
Chalo said:
Those are bicycle hubs. Use bicycle rims and spokes, or prepare to have all kinds of trouble from combining parts that were never meant to work together. It won't end well.

If you want to use parts that are as strong as moped wheels, use Halo SAS or Origin8 DAT-PRO65 rims and Maxxis Hookworm tires. Don't use thicker than 14ga spokes! They don't work right when they're too thick. 14-15ga double butted spokes are best if you can get them.

Yea thats our main concern, but from what im seeing, and what people are telling me, you are able to lace Motocross rims with bicycle hubs. I would much rather lace with bike rims but the problem is getting tires that wont wear out quickly or pop, big enough and so on...
 
motoped is NOT a bicycle its a moped/ lightweight motorcycle.. weighs 125+ lbs with up to 10+ HP.. the rear hub is a custom motored bike hub and can readily handle moped or playbike moto rims and high motor power.. spoke holes on motoped rear hub are 3.0mm for 12gauge spokes.. some have done a slight drill on the rear hub for 10gauge moto spokes but that's overkill IMO.. if you want 24" bike rims then just get the denzel ebike tires problem solved..
 
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
motoped is NOT a bicycle its a moped/ lightweight motorcycle.. weighs 125+ lbs with up to 10+ HP.. the rear hub is a custom motored bike hub and can readily handle moped or playbike moto rims and high motor power.. spoke holes on motoped rear hub are 3.0mm for 12gauge spokes.. some have done a slight drill on the rear hub for 10gauge moto spokes but that's overkill IMO.. if you want 24" bike rims then just get the denzel ebike tires problem solved..


I took a look at the denzel tires and its not exactly what i want, i want super slick tires for most of my riding, because it will mostly be on the roads, and then grippy tires for off road, as the other comment said in my case it might be easier to have two sets of wheels just save myself the headache of taking off and on the tire everytime, but thats something ill worry about later. For now i want to lace my hubs around a MC rim. I attached the images, so you guys have the measurments now i just have to look for the rim... and we go from there
 
maarkmohamed said:
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
motoped is NOT a bicycle its a moped/ lightweight motorcycle.. weighs 125+ lbs with up to 10+ HP.. the rear hub is a custom motored bike hub and can readily handle moped or playbike moto rims and high motor power.. spoke holes on motoped rear hub are 3.0mm for 12gauge spokes.. some have done a slight drill on the rear hub for 10gauge moto spokes but that's overkill IMO.. if you want 24" bike rims then just get the denzel ebike tires problem solved..


I took a look at the denzel tires and its not exactly what i want, i want super slick tires for most of my riding, because it will mostly be on the roads, and then grippy tires for off road, as the other comment said in my case it might be easier to have two sets of wheels just save myself the headache of taking off and on the tire everytime, but thats something ill worry about later. For now i want to lace my hubs around a MC rim. I attached the images, so you guys have the measurments now i just have to look for the rim... and we go from there

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1432733183623914?view=permalink&id=1661122210785009
 
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
maarkmohamed said:
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
motoped is NOT a bicycle its a moped/ lightweight motorcycle.. weighs 125+ lbs with up to 10+ HP.. the rear hub is a custom motored bike hub and can readily handle moped or playbike moto rims and high motor power.. spoke holes on motoped rear hub are 3.0mm for 12gauge spokes.. some have done a slight drill on the rear hub for 10gauge moto spokes but that's overkill IMO.. if you want 24" bike rims then just get the denzel ebike tires problem solved..


I took a look at the denzel tires and its not exactly what i want, i want super slick tires for most of my riding, because it will mostly be on the roads, and then grippy tires for off road, as the other comment said in my case it might be easier to have two sets of wheels just save myself the headache of taking off and on the tire everytime, but thats something ill worry about later. For now i want to lace my hubs around a MC rim. I attached the images, so you guys have the measurments now i just have to look for the rim... and we go from there

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1432733183623914?view=permalink&id=1661122210785009

if im not mistaken according to that post you just linked, he laced the rear with a 22" bmx rim and the front with a holmeshobbies rim, but the front rim isnt available as im looking on there website. ill have to contact them.
 
maarkmohamed said:
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
maarkmohamed said:
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
motoped is NOT a bicycle its a moped/ lightweight motorcycle.. weighs 125+ lbs with up to 10+ HP.. the rear hub is a custom motored bike hub and can readily handle moped or playbike moto rims and high motor power.. spoke holes on motoped rear hub are 3.0mm for 12gauge spokes.. some have done a slight drill on the rear hub for 10gauge moto spokes but that's overkill IMO.. if you want 24" bike rims then just get the denzel ebike tires problem solved..


I took a look at the denzel tires and its not exactly what i want, i want super slick tires for most of my riding, because it will mostly be on the roads, and then grippy tires for off road, as the other comment said in my case it might be easier to have two sets of wheels just save myself the headache of taking off and on the tire everytime, but thats something ill worry about later. For now i want to lace my hubs around a MC rim. I attached the images, so you guys have the measurments now i just have to look for the rim... and we go from there

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1432733183623914?view=permalink&id=1661122210785009

if im not mistaken according to that post you just linked, he laced the rear with a 22" bmx rim and the front with a holmeshobbies rim, but the front rim isnt available as im looking on there website. ill have to contact them.

its the image in the post, not all the comments are relevant.. the motoped hub, rim and spoke measurements are listed for motoped hubs with Holmes/prowheel 19" front and rear rims..
 
here is a source for 17 or 19" front moto bike wheel from a trusted vendor at
reasonable price for professional built high quality wheel.. :
https://em3ev.com/shop/front-moto-wheel/
 
I know you said to not bother with the old wheel build stuff, but I'm only pursuing this to ensure you get the right wheel build done. It sucks to not be able to ride. :)

maarkmohamed said:
On the other hand you said the spokes are shorter on one side of the rear hub?
Yes, generally--but from the pictures you posted later, it looks like you have one of the few exceptions.

On rear bicycle wheels, the wheel is generally dished to leave more space for the freewheel or cassette, between the hub and the frame, so that the tire itself is still centered on the bike frame.

The hubs themselves will still generally be the same distance from flanges to outboard ends of the hub, but the axle will generally be offset so it is longer on the freewheel / drive side, and spacers are used on the axle to keep the dropout/frame from rubbing on the outer sprocket.


However...the pictures you post show a hub with no freewheel, but rather a "fixed" cog adapter. If you are using a single cog, and not a freewheel or cassette with mulitple cogs, that is different from an average bicycle. It may not require a dished wheel to give clearance and still center the tire.

So...it depends on what you are doing with the wheel.

Either way, the wheel you wanted to build could've been done with the right length spokes, given all the other info you've posted so far about it. So whatever you go with now, I recommend verifying the ERD of the rim by measuring it yourself before ordering spokes for it. :)



. I cant explain to you exactly what the bike shop said, they confirmed, it was the right size spoke length, he test fitted the nipples to see if they sit flush when i dropped off the rim, fit well.....
I guess it depends on how the bike shop verified the spoke length. They *should* know how to measure ERD, and determine the right spoke length for any particular hub, and measure spoke lengths.... But anyone can make a mistake, and it would only take a few mm on each spoke to make an unbuildable wheel. :(



Now...on to building the wheels you want.

First you have to decide what size wheels you want. If your frame is wide enough to hold the tires without rubbing (MC tires are wider than bicycle tires generally), then 19" MC tires and rims may fit in a 26" (to 29") wheel bicycle frame.

If your frame is not wide enough, you probably can't use MC tires without going to a substantially smaller wheel size, which may change the ride height and/or geometry of the bike so much it becomes unrideable (or no fun to, anyway).

If the front fork isn't wide enough, you can swap it out for a fatbike fork and it would probably be wide enough then.


Either way, you can go to the thread on ES linked in the first reply here, and it discusses quite a lot of options for rims and tires. I don't know if all the links to specific products are all still good, but they'll show you the kind of thing to look for. Yes, its' a lot of posts...but if the info isn't in there somewhere, it probably isn't anywhere. ;)



FWIW, I went to Shinko SR714 (IIRC) 16" moped tires, along with good real-rubber extra thick moped tubes, on my 20" bicycle rims for SB Cruiser's rear wheels, mostly because of flats, but partly for load carrying capacity and the better ride quality of a larger-volume tire. The best I could do was 2.5" tires due ot the way I'd built the frame at the time, as I didn't want to cut up the fender frames/wheelwells and rebuild them (or I would've gone with 3-4" tires if I could've fit them on the rims).

The tires and tubes are several times heavier than bicycle tires...but I don't have to use heavy MC rims with them, which would probably add several times more weight to the wheels, which are already very heavy due to the hubmotors in them. The rims I have are strong enough, with the right (thin) spokes on them, to withstand most of the abuse I put them thru.


But for the future build of the trike, with much larger diameter wheels, I might have to go ahead and use something like 19" MC wheels and tires...I'd rather not, but I kinda need "guaranteed" flat protection, if I'm out in the summer heat taking one of the dogs with me, or some similar situation. Iv'e tried all the tricks I can with bicycle tires, and it's just not enough, not always--works great as my front tire...but the rears take a lot more load and abuse. :/
 
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