May 16 ATA Melbourne Aus meeting

Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
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Location
N-E Victoria, AUS
http://www.ata.org.au/uncategorized/melbourne-branches-may-16-electric-bikes/
Mercedes Wolfenden and Tara Gelme
Mercedes and Tara will talk on their very recent experiences of riding an electric bike.   Mercedes using it in an inner suburban area and on a long trip, Tara with general local riding including using it for school.
Rebecca Lee
Will talk on the varieties of electric bikes available and the methods of electrical assistance, what you should look for and what options you have.
Eleanore Fritze
Eleanore has had experience with representing people charged with using a non legal electric bike.  She will discuss the current legislative framework and some of the myths and misinformation surrounding them.

The bikes on display will include
Standard bicycles with hub motors and mid motors.
An electric tricycle
A bike with a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
The Australia Post electric bike replacement for their noisy, smelly Honda’s
Dominos pizza deliveries new electric motor bikes
A 14.2kW GPR-S electric motor bike (have a look at a video of the bike here)
A Segway
A “mono wheel”
A Yike bike

Webcast – For all of those people who cannot get to the meeting we are hoping that we will be using our web streaming. If you would like to watch it on your computer Click here. Please note this will also show all our events previously recorded as well.
I'm thinking of attending, the last topic sounds particularly interesting
 
I'll be there. I asked if I could bring my bike and even though the were really interested, they said they couldn't fit one more bike in. :roll: Ah well.

They also mentioned they have a huge huge amount of interest in the ebike session, and planning to organise a weekend day event where people can take bikes for a spin as well.
 
What a great listen. I really enjoyed the urban planning and the legal talk. Although i felt sorry for the cute lawyer, who had to do most of her chat with people with their hands up wanting to ask questions.
Sorry i had to dash.
 
It was an interesting night with some interesting attendees. Including:

- the company (http://evehicles.com.au/) that got the Australia Post contract that is putting 1000+ ebikes on the road delivering mail. BTW they got their motors independently verified to be road legal to our 200w standards. He also clarified that the laws in Oz will soon be modified to allow the EU 250w/25kph bikes to be sold. He believes that they will coexist with the current laws.

- an electric scooter/motorcyle conversion company (http://www.erider.com.au/) that has got a fully electric scooter through all the hoops to make it fully registerable. It has a hub motor and a sevcon controller. The also have a eMotorcycle. And are work with Swinburne Uni final years student to develop a new ground up design, including a custom frame. I briefly chatted to the two students tackling the frame project, and they mentioned exploring using a car in wheel hub motor, and adapting it for a motor bike.

- a lawyer that has represented people in court for various ebike related offenses. It was clear that there is no point in picking the detail out of the wording of the current 200w law. All cases go to a magistrates court, and are pumped through the system quickly. So very unlikely to win the case, or get charges dropped by arguing the letter of the law. Better off to; not be stupid on a bike to get pulled over in the first palce, seek legal advice before you dispute the charges if you do get charged, and the best bet of getting a charge overturned is if it is reasonably that you believed your bike was legal.

- a couple of young and more senior ladies reflect on ebikes, and their usefulness. Both used this bike: http://aseakoelectricbike.com.au/. They both really liked it. Meeting their expectations. But found them heavy, and would not like to pedal them without power. But never had to so wasn't really an issue.

- some research on bike infrastructure, and how lame Melbournes is, and how cool other parts of the world are.

- and a bit of a sales pitch from another bike kit supplier, masquerading as a general overview of ebike types.

There was quite a bit of waffle, but some good stuff too. Good to hear people getting excited about ebikes, and sessions like this will only help.

Thanks go to ATA for organising it.

Adrian
 
I was surprised worth the wording of the legal exemption for electric bikes. Something along the lines of "three maximin ungoverned power of the motor must not exceed 200 watt"
I guess that means that you can't have a switch for onroad and offroad. And as that guy said, what motor can't exceed 200 watt?

Very interesting nonetheless, I'm glad i could make it.
 
Yeah everyone agreed the wording is a joke. But a magistrate is unlikely to understand it either, and you probably won't have time to argue the details of it. So moot point really. I court it will come down to if you could reasonably believe your system was legal, you might get the charges dropped. But if you built it yourself, upgraded parts, or bought the off-road 1000w system then you won't have as much luck. Then you just need to be sensible on the roads and adhere to the spirit of the laws, if not the letter of the law, so Mr Plod can spend his time on more important things.

I was interested in trying to find out more about how they tested the postie bike system. Because they actually did get them independently tested, it would have been interesting the hear how they interpreted it. But chatting to the guy he didn't know the detail of the test (apart from how much it cost him), but admitted that when you hit a hill the system will pull more power, and was very quick to clarify that this was all output power, not the battery side power everyone on this forum usually refers to.
 
I was a little disappointed that they left the legal talk to the end, as it was potentially the most interesting to those of us with a bike already.

I doubt many of us lurkers on ES would be bothered with any of the off the shelf stuff that was being pedalled by the companies represented...

Btw, I was the guy who started the questions to the lawyer with 'governed is rubbish, since what compliant motor wouldn't be capable of more than 200 W save for the controller governing it....

Sorry if that broke the flow, but I'm sure it was what many of us really wanted to discuss...
 
Hey Kabbage. Welcome to ES, well at least to posting on it.

You pretty much nailed it with the question, as that is what most of us were thinking. I think the crappy wording in our laws are probably a throw back from paraphrasing/reinterpreting the EU standard EN15194 (Electrically Power Assisted Cycles), and the standard it refers to for classifying the power capacity for a motor EN60034-1. I think this even more widely accepted standard for ebikes is also poorly worded. Here is the key part of it:

4.2.7 Maximum power measurement
4.2.7.1 Measurement at the engine shaft

The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches
its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer.

NOTE Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour.

In circumstance where the power is measured directly at the shaft of the electronic motor, the result of the
measurement shall be decreased by 1,10 to consider the measurement uncertainty and then by 1,05 to
include for example the transmission losses, unless the real values of these losses are determined.

4.2.7.2 Alternative method

When the power is measured at the wheel, the result of the measurement is the reading value.
Annex D gives guidance on how to measure the power at the wheel.

The way I read it, it seems to boil down to what the manufacturer claims the motor can thermally withstand (on a 100% duty cycle for an ebike presumably). Which is wide open for reinterpretation, since is wholly depends on the motor speed, and the temp limit you feel like setting. It is more about protecting the purchaser from a motor melting, than limiting the motors power output. Which would allow you to slap on a 250w sticker on anything, by using a stupidly low thermal limit, then allow people to run it hotter.

Weird standard.

Maybe the Oz wording is a poor attempt at correcting this. By assuming a constant voltage power source, wide open throttle, what can the motor put out. Something along those lines.

The way I think it should be interpreted is that the definition of the motor is the motor + controller, and ungoverned means you are running full throttle, not partial throttle. Then it starts to make sense.

- Adrian

P.S. I was the guy that asked if she had actually argued the point of the law in the court room at all.

I found the response quite interesting. Basically that it didn't matter. You were more likely to "win" if you don't try and prove that your bike is legal, but prove that it is reasonable that you thought it was legal. Also that none of her clients were there just for having an overpowered ebike, they were all doing something else stupid that drew the attention of the police.
 
adrian_sm said:
4.2.7 Maximum power measurement
4.2.7.1 Measurement at the engine shaft

The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches
its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer.

The way I read it, it seems to boil down to what the manufacturer claims the motor can thermally withstand (on a 100% duty cycle for an ebike presumably). Which is wide open for reinterpretation, since is wholly depends on the motor speed, and the temp limit you feel like setting. It is more about protecting the purchaser from a motor melting, than limiting the motors power output. Which would allow you to slap on a 250w sticker on anything, by using a stupidly low thermal limit, then allow people to run it hotter.

P.S. I was the guy that asked if she had actually argued the point of the law in the court room at all.

Like you say, that seems to seem to be about protecting people from unsustainable claims of high power, than ensuring a 'lower limit'. What a shocker. I also have an issue with the definition of 'continuous'; eg. a motor may be capable of providing 1000W peak, but in normal use, the 'equivalent' continous power level will be much lower - since I power up and down a lot, I find that even though my motor is capable of "200"W peak, the actual usage over my 20min trip, including coasting, is only about 0.4x that.

As with you, I was disappointed that she hadn't actually tested the case of someone being accused of having an oversized motor in court, but rather had been involved in some 'pre-200W' cases that seem to be centred around whether the bike actually had pedals or not...

I would have like to have asked, is there any precedent for having power limits, rather than capacity limits. Ok, I know that there is; there are kW/kg limits for P platers for cars etc., but it seems like a strange way to try and specify something, since, really, you need to be able to *measure* it in order to demonstrate compliance, and as far as I know, Plod doesn't have any tools that would enable him/her to do that in any case.
 
She isn't a law maker so likely wouldn't have bothered trying to research it. Not much point, she just has to work within the laws as that stand. Since this is all at the magistrates court level.

I did hear a rumour that someone on a Bomber tried to outrun the cops, and got the book thrown at him. Unregistered motorbike, riding without a motorbike license, riding without a motorbike helmet,. ....

Not sure what started the chase.
 
adrian_sm said:
I did hear a rumour that someone on a Bomber tried to outrun the cops, and got the book thrown at him. Unregistered motorbike, riding without a motorbike license, riding without a motorbike helmet,. ....

Well it's a bit OT but a guy on a Stealth something (not sure it was a Bomber) pulled up next to me (on my Honda, before I sold it) at pole position at a set of lights on Hoddle Street/Punt road about 4 or 5 weeks ago. We had a quick chat before the lights went green, and while I got off the lights a lot quicker than he did (it seems 4kW doesn't make up for 600cc... sorry), he soon caught up and went tearing off down hoddle street doing at least 80k's all the way to Johnson Street, overtaking cars and changing lanes all the way.

All in a pair of shorts, and T-shirt, and a bike helmet. Crrraaaazzzzy stuff. Apart from being incredibly dangerous, he was just asking to be fried by the cops. There is no way they'd let him get away with it if they saw him.

Like the Lawyer said - "aim to keep a low profile"... sheesh.
 
Hi,

I am in Melbourne for the week. Going out to see John at Stealth on Wednesday.
Anyone interested in a visit, share stories over a beer?
Have seen one diy ebike in town, overwhelmed by the fixie culture, lots of production e-bikes.
Very strong bike culture here. Nice to see.
melbike.jpg
whos bike?


Kiwi.
 
Im meeting him from 12-2, talking business, so love to meet up towards 2 if your around. John says he's got meetings rest of day.
Im free the rest of the day.
 
I am around, but wife is out of town so bit hard to catch up. Unless people felt like dropping over to my place for beer & pizza or something.

Kiwi. Full-throttle. Shorza. Kabbage. How about Wednesday night, my place in Surrey Hills.

- Adrian
 
Well thanks, it would be wonderful to meet other like biked people in an informal setting; Malforturisment my nearest and dearest has a haircut booked for Wednesday night, and I am in charge of the billy-lids. Next time.
 
Just come after the haircut. My kids won't hit the sack until 8:30ish so I'll be fairly distracted up until then anyway. I am happy for people to hang around 'til midnight if they wish, so should be time enough to catch up.

We can shift to Thursday night if people prefer.

Place your votes people. Tue (tonight), Wed (default option) or Thursday night.
 
adrian_sm said:
Just come after the haircut.

There is some disconnect here, since you say you have kids (which more-than-implies a relationship with a woman), however, you exhibit a complete lack of understanding with regards to the time taken for a woman to have a haircut. How can that be? Maybe the woman you have a relationship with has never had a haircut?

They take *hours*. I don't know how, or why, but they do. I probably won't see her home until 11. (and don't get me started on the cost of a woman's haircut - if mine costs more than $12 I consider it a rip-off.)

adrian_sm said:
We can shift to Thursday night if people prefer.

Thurs works for me, I think, but please don't re-arrange for me if that doesn't suit otherwise. I'll admit to a little range anxiety over Slurry Hills, but could probably recharge before hand and make the round trip. And google maps is my friend. It wouldn't be right to drive...
 
Looks like Kiwi has the deciding vote.

So when is good for you?
 
this is awesome.

Well, I am going to Stealth on Wed, but I am good any night, don't want to miss out on meeting anyone so Thursday night for pizza and beers and stories is mint. If anyone wants to catch up at Stealth at 2 cool also, anyone want to take me riding cool also, I don't have a bike.

Happy to pick people up, could use a navigator. Perhaps Shorza contacts me and I can take him with me from the city.
 
Kiwi said:
whos bike?
Kiwi.

Haha, that's mine. Parked in the city Friday night, nice spotto.

I'm keen to catch up, especially if beer and pizza are involved.
I'm working during the days until around 7pm, but can ride to catch up after that. Thursday night suits me better as tomorrow will be a bitch of a day for me.

Adrian, what suburb do you live in?
Sorry Kiwi, I am still a few weeks away from having a spare bike that you could use (the ones I bought your dropout adaptors for).
 
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