LightningRods mid drive kit

LightningRods · Jul 21, 2017

Test pilot Darren Eclair putting my single stage drive through it's paces. Still accelerating at 50 mph when he ran into traffic.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/endless.sphere/permalink/1407869755948755

gman1971 · Jul 25, 2017

I think you're missing something in here, the reduction on the C3000W motor is in there for more than just pedaling speed, the motor alone wouldn't have enough torque without a 6:1 reduction to be mated directly without requiring insane startup amps to accelerate at any reasonable rate, etc.... so, you need some external reduction much like you do in yours using the extra belt/chain reductions. Another point is that the planetary reduction saves the cumbersome extra stuff that sucks to deal with in places like frozen Wisconsin winter with icy, salty, and gritty roads, with all kinds of crap dissolved in the ice/water mix, and those exposed bearings and belts love that kind of stuff I am sure.

Also the entire C3000W kit is 350 bucks, its affordable and runs great, again, even in Wisconsin frozen winter -20F. Sure, its not perfect and has its little gotchas here and there, but it works very well.

G.

LightningRods said:
Comparison photos of the Cyclone 3000 watt with my Small Block 3000 watt and Big Block 6000 watt motors. Because of it's planetary gears the Cyclone is three pounds heavier than my comparable motor and 2.25" wider. My Big Block which is twice the actual motor that the Cyclone is, weighs only 1.2 lbs more and is 1.5" narrower.

The entire point of those planetary gears is to make it possible to pedal with the motor. That only works at 48-52v where the Cyclone is actually a 2000 watt motor. Running at the 72v required to get 3000 watts spins the motor too fast to pedal with. Most users don't care because it's pretty pointless to pedal with a 3000 watt motor.

Cyclone 3000 watt _______________ L-R Small Block 3000 watt

Cyclone 3000 watt _______________ L-R Big Block 6000 watt

L-R Big Block 6000 watt ___________ Cyclone 3000 watt ___________ L-R Small Block 3000 watt

The actual motor width of the Cyclone and Small Block. The rest of the Cyclone is planetary gear box.

I initially advertised my Small Block as a 1500 watt and my Big Block as a 3000 watt. I thought it best to under promise and over deliver. Since that time aggressive big box retailers have been pushing the power claims of their motors to ridiculous levels. My "small" motor is comparable to the Cyclone in power. My big motor is twice the motor.

My complete Small Block single stage drive (without BB and chainwheels) weighs 1.5 lbs less than just the Cyclone motor by itself.

LightningRods · Jul 25, 2017

I respectfully disagree. Stop and think about your final drive gearing for a moment. It's overdrive, which is the opposite of reduction. If as you say, the point of the honking huge, heavy, noisy and complex planetary reduction on the Cyclone is for torque multiplication rather than pedaling speed, why reduce to the pedals and then overdrive to the rear wheel? The answer is that the overall gearing system is geared for the purpose of syncing to the human pedaling cadence. I'm not saying that is altogether bad. I have been doing it myself with my two stage drives for over 4 years and plan to continue doing it. Those will not be my high performance drives. I also will not be using a nylon gear planetary system that doubles the weight and width of the motor.

The amount of power and rpm that we create is negligible compared to even a moderately sized motor. With the EU spec 25O watt motors your pedaling really matters. All they do is give you a bit of assist. With a 15OO watt motor your pedaling still makes a difference and the bicycle driveline can still handle it. By the time we reach 3OOO watts our pedaling is more of an impediment to the motor than a benefit. Gearing the bike with the traditional overdrive to the rear wheel (done because our 1OO rpm pedaling cadence translates to about 8 mph at the rear wheel geared 1:1) results in too much reduction meeting too much overdrive. The more we try to push the human limited gearing with more overdrive, the worse the driveline problems become. Everyone that tries to make a performance ebike with the Cyclone 3OOO knows this. You're on the 11t rear cog most of the time, that low tooth count cog can't handle the power, and the gearing is still too low. On top of all of this, if you use Cyclone's cheat to get their 3OOO watt rating you're running 72v and even with the silly gearing you can't pedal along any longer.

I've been doing business with Cyclone for as long as I've been in this business and I actually like Ping-yueh Lin a lot. He's very dependable and generally a good guy. His product is China cheap. I don't even try to compete with him on price because my materials cost me more than the finished goods sell for in China. I could become another one of the people buying containers of his mid drives and dumping them in the developed world for a mark up. It would be a lot easier. I'm not interested.

gman1971 · Jul 25, 2017

I don't think you have to lecture me in how the equation of power works (P = T x RPM) , b/c let me remind you that you're talking to a guy who's been running uber-high crank RPMs on my Cyclones since day one. An idea that you've finally discovered.... Or better yet, when your stuff was breaking left and right (LR), my C3000W kit was clocking miles like crazy, spinning 1st gear (36T cog then) up to 28 mph, then went up to 31, then it was 35 and now its at 37mph with a 42T rear cog, (or half that speed with my triple chainring if I need to haul stuff), these are real world on-road numbers (not wheels off the ground), this is using a 10 speed cassette. I've never gone past the 6th gear on any of my trikes. Your eBike testing at 50 mph video seems just like any spirited daily commute on my C3000W trike, except I don't weave in and out of traffic like a maniac, b/c you know, I don't want to get killed or get pulled over; my trike its been like that for the past year and a half (or 7k miles). Nothing magical or new to see there.

The point is, there is no need to put down Cyclone kits in your thread, nor compare them with such disdain to your kits b/c they weight 2 lbs more or less than the C3000 kit (FYI, my 6kW Cyclone 3000W trike theoretical top speed is ~78 mph and weights 120+ lbs), except, of course, if you're planning on matching (or very close to) the Cyclone kits pricing, then we can talk apples to apples. A 350 dollar Cyclone is a phenomenal deal, and I have nothing to do with Paco, I just love the stuff that works and I can' seal off and not have to mess with it daily, this has been my experience with the C3000W motor.

IMO, you should stop making those old kits altogether and focus all your effort on your new kits, which look promising; as the old stuff was, IMO, overly complicated, expensive and low performance compared to a 350 dollar Cyclone like mine running high RPM.

Cheers and welcome to the high speed, I mean RPM, low drag club

G.

LightningRods said:
I respectfully disagree. Stop and think about your final drive gearing for a moment. It's overdrive, which is the opposite of reduction. If as you say, the point of the honking huge, heavy, noisy and complex planetary reduction on the Cyclone is for torque multiplication rather than pedaling speed, why reduce to the pedals and then overdrive to the rear wheel? The answer is that the overall gearing system is geared for the purpose of syncing to the human pedaling cadence. I'm not saying that is altogether bad. I have been doing it myself with my two stage drives for over 4 years and plan to continue doing it. Those will not be my high performance drives. I also will not be using a nylon gear planetary system that doubles the weight and width of the motor.

The amount of power and rpm that we create is negligible compared to even a moderately sized motor. With the EU spec 25O watt motors your pedaling really matters. All they do is give you a bit of assist. With a 15OO watt motor your pedaling still makes a difference and the bicycle driveline can still handle it. By the time we reach 3OOO watts our pedaling is more of an impediment to the motor than a benefit. Gearing the bike with the traditional overdrive to the rear wheel (done because our 1OO rpm pedaling cadence translates to about 8 mph at the rear wheel geared 1:1) results in too much reduction meeting too much overdrive. The more we try to push the human limited gearing with more overdrive, the worse the driveline problems become. Everyone that tries to make a performance ebike with the Cyclone 3OOO knows this. You're on the 11t rear cog most of the time, that low tooth count cog can't handle the power, and the gearing is still too low. On top of all of this, if you use Cyclone's cheat to get their 3OOO watt rating you're running 72v and even with the silly gearing you can't pedal along any longer.

I've been doing business with Cyclone for as long as I've been in this business and I actually like Ping-yueh Lin a lot. He's very dependable and generally a good guy. His product is China cheap. I don't even try to compete with him on price because my materials cost me more than the finished goods sell for in China. I could become another one of the people buying containers of his mid drives and dumping them in the developed world for a mark up. It would be a lot easier. I'm not interested.

LightningRods · Jul 25, 2017

The Cyclone kit is awesome for the money. If any of you do buy one be sure to buy direct from Cyclone: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/2chkit.html The Chinese work really hard for their money. The average worker makes next to nothing and lives in horrible conditions. They don't need some spoiled white boy skimming their money.

Support the people who make things.

bchampig · Jul 28, 2017

I recently bought Mike's single stage kit and I've started the install. I had built up the Marin Quake ahead of time and was debating which mid drive I'd install on it. My Yeti 575 conversion is based on the Cyclone 3kw kit, but I wanted to try something new for this build. I still have work to do, mounting the controller, and making a downtube clamp.

I have a 36T cog on there currently, but have a 42T that I could install if I need more torque on the hills. I had to install a goat link for the Zee deraileur so that it would clear the offset cogs. I'm running spacers on the freehub and the chainline looks pretty decent.

I'm just waiting on my 12fet sine controller from Powervelocity, and in the meantime, I'll be CNC'ing some downtube brackets and clamps.

-Brian

LightningRods · Jul 28, 2017

Your bike looks great Brian! Super tidy. It's always satisfying to see a nice build in progress.

If you have a 42T available I'd go ahead and install it. My Specialized test mule is a 29er with a 34T low. I'm going to install a 26" OD wheel on the rear. That will reduce overall gearing 11%. I have a $2O Suntour 11-4OT 8 speed cassette that will give me over 17% lower gearing in first gear. Speed is no problem. I was able to hit 35 mph with the 28T second gear sprocket. That's about the same as being maxed out on the 11T rear sprocket with a drive that spins the chainwheel at a 1OO rpm pedaling cadence. Zero chain jumping on the 28T.

Thanks for posting!

LightningRods · Jul 28, 2017

I just released my new single stage drive. It's full of new features that take a fresh look at the mid drive idea. Response has been great. Thank you very much for that. I'm also getting a lot of inquiries that say "I love the new drive. Can I get one that I can pedal with?" Or "I don't care about going fast. I just want great climbing ability." Sigh. Okay, for you people who MUST pedal along, who enjoy climbing vertical slopes, here is the new aluminum frame, stainless steel sprocket, 2 stage drive:

I designed this drive because Pascal in Switzerland trusted me to make the mid drive that he wanted. He told me that he doesn't care about going more than 25 mph, wants to pedal to conserve battery, and wants to have super low gearing to climb the Swiss Alps. I knew that the single speed haul ass drive was not right for him. So now there is another mid drive option. I won't sell this with the big block motor in it. If you're buying the big motor you should have enough sense to get the single stage. I don't know what this drive will weigh because it hasn't been built yet. It should be well under ten lbs. This drive would actually be great at 36V 4OA. You still have nearly 15OO watts of climbing power, your battery pack will be biased towards range instead of high volt/high rpm, and the 3OOO watt capable motor is way under taxed. This drive also fits the "dogleg" DH frames really well. Instead of hanging down like a cow's udder, waiting to get bashed on a rock, the motor is high and tight. That space was the perfect place to tuck in the secondary drive.

I'm making two units initially. One for Pascal and one for myself. If it works out as well as I expect I'll make as many as there is demand for.

LightningRods · Jul 29, 2017

If you're going to run a mid drive through the chainwheel you need to decide whether you want high power and speed, or whether you want low speed climbing and the ability to pedal along with the motor. Running the chainwheel at 100 rpm so that you can keep up with the motor is going to limit the power and speed (rpm) to the rear wheel.

My single stage drive runs the chainwheel at 500 rpm. No overdrive in the final drive until 5th gear and 51 mph with an 18t rear sprocket. Top speed is limited by power.

My two stage drive runs the chainwheel at 120 rpm. You can pedal with the motor. This drive is great for steep climbing, pulling loads, running with PAS.

Here are the comparative speeds of the two drives. Off road the two stage will climb much steeper hills and do it at slower speeds. On level to moderately sloping ground the single stage will run off and leave the two stage. The two stage will top out around 30 while the single stage will run until it doesn't have the power to go any faster. With the big block, particularly at 20s, that's going to be race track only speeds. (Don't get arrested, Darren!)

I'm already anticipating the "Can't I reliably pedal my bike at 40 mph?" question. Yes you can. You just can't run the motor through the chainwheel. I'm working on several drives right now where pedal power and motor power are separated until AFTER the pedal chainwheel. That way you can gear the pedal side to pedal at as high a speed as you want and still have the motor geared correctly. Personally I don't care to pedal above 35 mph. Above 35 I like to hold on and pay attention.

Both of these drives have their place. They are different tools for different jobs. I'm pretty sure that Pascal will love his two stage as much as Darren loves his single stage.

Dogboy1200 · Jul 29, 2017

How about that single stage set up run single speed but on the left side. The sprockets would be concentric to the BB but could ride on bearings built into the motor mount. Maybe one of matts adapters for the sprocket on the rear wheel.

LightningRods · Jul 29, 2017

That's a great idea! In fact I'm already working on it. Three motor gears to a sprocket on the left side, as many gears as you want in a conventional bicycle pedal drive on the right. You'll see it here very soon.

Dogboy1200 · Jul 30, 2017

I love your approach of creating different types of systems that have different strengths. My needs (single track only) are much different from someone who uses their bike to commute. With your expanding product range, your going to have something for everyone!

LightningRods · Jul 30, 2017

Thanks! Sometimes there is a "better" solution that works for almost everything. Most of the time there are conflicting priorities that force us to choose A or B. The biggest decision to make with your mid drive is whether you want to pedal with the motor or not. If you don't care about pedaling life gets very simple.

daygr · Aug 16, 2017

LightningRods, this thread is awesome, I'm so glad to see that there is more development happening with your kit.

I'm currently running a BBSHD build on a 29er motobecane hardtail, which is a great commuter but frankly a little underwhelming compared to what I had initially envisioned. I average about 31-33 mph in 3rd gear, with a 3-speed shimano nexus hub in the rear. This definitely isn't super efficient as the motor slows when climbing, requiring downshifts.

Just this week I picked up a mountain bike, built on a 2002 VooDoo Canzo full suspension frame, intending to use it as a trail bike, but then I realized that my 52V 20ah triangle battery fits perfectly in front of the rear shock with at least half an inch so it won't block motion... and now I can't stop thinking about doing a -ridiculous- build with your big block for some true high speed ebike action.

Anybody have some links to their favorite builds with the stage 1 big block kit? I really don't care about pedaling.

Of course, I would need to find another trail bike, so I could ride with my friends... :?

LightningRods · Aug 16, 2017

You've seen Darren's bike? Zack in Hawaii also has a single stage Big Block. His build is on a Santa Cruz DH bike. I know he watches this thread. Maybe he'll post some photos.

There really are only two unusual things to know about these single stage drives. [1] You can't pedal with the motor. The chainwheel is spinning too fast. [2] You want the biggest rear gears you can fit. With the single stage your rear sprockets will be the gearing equivalent of sprockets that have 4O% as many teeth. A 27 tooth sprocket will make the speed that an 11 tooth does on a typical pedaling cadence mid drive. That's why the chain doesn't skip teeth under full power. This setup loves power. 3OOO watts is just getting started.

I'm shipping single stage drives now so I imagine that more and more builds will start appearing. I'm just about to ship a single stage big block to Stu up in Canada. It's going onto a Bird Zero TR hardtail. That bike weighs nothing. It's going to be very fast.

daygr · Aug 17, 2017

A hardtail that can handle those speeds!? I wonder what kind of tires he'll be running. I know before I put thornproof tubes in my tires, I was pinching tubes weekly even with my tires up at 60psi, which was NOT comfortable.

LightningRods · Aug 17, 2017

Hardtails typically have fewer chain problems than bikes with rear suspension. Some long travel bikes have serious chain growth issues. They have enough problems with pedal power only. Stu also has a Giant DH Comp with one of my two stage drives on it so he'll be able to make lots of comparisons.

Stu has also scored an XG-899 8 speed cassette at a great price and will be installing it on his Bird hard tail. The 48 tooth low gear will give him a great low speed gear. Ratio jumps are unusually wide through the first five gears which is perfect for our needs. Close ratio gears are a nuisance with a powerful electric motor. It's the failing of the Rohloff 14 speed. You find yourself skip shifting 3 gears at a time. Fifth gear (18 teeth) will be as high a gear as Stu needs.

daygr · Aug 17, 2017

LightningRods said:
Hardtails typically have fewer chain problems than bikes with rear suspension. Some long travel bikes have serious chain growth issues. They have enough problems with pedal power only. Stu also has a Giant DH Comp with one of my two stage drives on it so he'll be able to make lots of comparisons.

Stu has also scored an XG-899 8 speed cassette at a great price and will be installing it on his Bird hard tail. The 48 tooth low gear will give him a great low speed gear. Ratio jumps are unusually wide through the first five gears which is perfect for our needs. Close ratio gears are a nuisance with a powerful electric motor. It's the failing of the Rohloff 14 speed. You find yourself skip shifting 3 gears at a time. Fifth gear (18 teeth) will be as high a gear as Stu needs.

The gear ratio issue is exactly why I chose a 3-speed hub. It helped that it was also a LOT cheaper than the Rohloff, but I would have spent the money if it were the right fit. As it is, I can't keep up with the BBSHD, so pedaling is just my version of turning the throttle.

Do you typically use PAS on your bikes with the stage 1 as a throttle, or do you just use a grip / thumb throttle? Also, with the battery disconnected, the chain can still be turned by pedaling?

Found a pretty decent deal on a 2006 s-works carbon hardtail, which is super light. Anybody do a build on a carbon frame?

LightningRods · Aug 17, 2017

PAS works well with the 2 stage drives because they are meant to sync with pedaling cadence. PAS doesn't work with the 1 stage because the chainwheel is spinning much faster than you can pedal. You end up windmilling and can't really contribute to the power equation. I use a motorcycle style twist grip on all of my kits unless the customer requests a thumb throttle for some reason.

One cool accessory that I'm looking forward to playing with is a dial potentiometer that works with the Cycle Analyst to regulate PAS power. It's like a thumb operated throttle on the left side that controls the wattage the motor puts out when the PAS kicks in. Where this is useful is modulating the difference between pedaling on flat ground vs. pedaling up a steep hill. You can use the dial pot to add the amount of assist you want. My Q76R came with PAS that was in five stages, controlled by an up/down button on the left. You can override the PAS at any time with the hand throttle if you want a quick burst of acceleration.

The problem with 3 speeds is that the overall range of the gears is not very wide. In the case of the Sturmey-Archer 3 speed it's only 177%. The range on the 11-48 8 speed SRAM is 436%. The range on the five lowest gears is 266%.

80for20 · Aug 17, 2017

Hey Daygr,

I'm not set on what tires/tubes I'll be running yet. For what it's worth, though, I ran wide-ish Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires with big thick Kenda inner tubes for about 3 years on a rear wheel direct drive; one flat. I was pushing about 3000W through that system. Odds are I'll start with a similar setup.

Edit: I actually had 1 flat in 3 years. Correction made.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

daygr · Aug 17, 2017

80for20 said:
Hey Daygr,

I'm not set on what tires/tubes I'll be running yet. For what's it's worth, though, I ran wide-ish Schwalbe Marathon Plus with big thick Kenda inner tubes for about 3 years on a rear wheel direct drive; no flats. I was pushing about 3000W through that system. Odds are I'll start with a similar setup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. I looked at the Marathon Plus tires, they look very nice.

I agree about the 3 speed not offering enough gear range. It's not very usable except for cruising at around 25-30, and for that it's acceptable, which is why it's my primary commuter. Again, though, that's with a BBSHD and a 52V battery, so I'm pushing at absolute most in the 1650w area. It's just not fast enough for me!

I'm definitely planning to do a big block stage 1 build soon, I just have lots of questions. Some of the answers are, I'm sure, either in this thread or elsewhere on endless sphere, but it's hard to find current, real-world info on this stuff. It's kind of amazing to me that the technology isn't more prevalent considering how great it is.

Here's another one- anybody done a build on a fatbike?

LightningRods · Aug 17, 2017

There are many situations where more power keeps you safer. There is a twisty back road that leads from my house to the local market/shopping center. It's winding and steep. Bicyclists love it. The problem is that there is very little shoulder, sometimes none, and they're out in the traffic lane weaving around at 3 mph. Sometimes you'll come around a corner in your car and there is a bike blocking your lane and oncoming car traffic going the other way. On a 16OO watt system you might do 1O or 15 up that road which would be an improvement. I've been running my swingarm drive around for several weeks. It will do 35 mph up the steepest sections which is actually faster than the 3O mph speed limit. I watch my helmet rear view mirror. I rarely have cars even gain on me. It's far safer to stay ahead of cars completely than it is to have them brush your elbow at 3O mph.

The prevalent technology is the stuff that's plentiful, cheap, and being aggressively marketed.

LightningRods · Aug 17, 2017

Here's a build that I did on a gorgeous full suspension Foes Mutz fat bike. This is an original design two stage big block running at about 325O watts.

The two things you have to watch out for are chainwheel to chain stay clearance and front tire to big pulley clearance. The single stage doesn't have the pulley issue since there isn't one.

Here's a two stage big block on a Sonders Storm frame:

Single stage fat bike installations coming soon. People usually buy fat bikes to roll over things rather than go fast so that may always be mostly a two stage drive market.

Here's a lucky fat bike owner who lives in Norway. Notice the PAS ring on the left crank.

daygr · Aug 17, 2017

LightningRods said:
There are many situations where more power keeps you safer. There is a twisty back road that leads from my house to the local market/shopping center. It's winding and steep. Bicyclists love it. The problem is that there is very little shoulder, sometimes none, and they're out in the traffic lane weaving around at 3 mph. Sometimes you'll come around a corner in your car and there is a bike blocking your lane and oncoming car traffic going the other way. On a 16OO watt system you might do 1O or 15 up that road which would be an improvement. I've been running my swingarm drive around for several weeks. It will do 35 mph up the steepest sections which is actually faster than the 3O mph speed limit. I watch my helmet rear view mirror. I rarely have cars even gain on me. It's far safer to stay ahead of cars completely than it is to have them brush your elbow at 3O mph.

The prevalent technology is the stuff that's plentiful, cheap, and being aggressively marketed.

Amen, I 100% agree. This is why I'm going to build something new, because not being able to do 35-40 means that I cannot guarantee I can go as fast as traffic on the roads I'm on, and not being able to go faster means I can't get away from bad drivers. Most of the time it's not an issue, but sometimes I really need that extra boost and the 1600w system just can't do it. Just today, in fact, I overtook a chevy Tahoe who was traveling 25 mph around a corner (in a 35 zone). Coming out of the corner, the guy started honking at me, caught up to me, rolled his window down and started pointing and cussing at me, because... I couldn't make it out, I guess I had startled him?? I would much rather have the ability to escape crazy people like that, in his 5500 pound SUV.

That Mutz is indeed gorgeous.

I'll probably be looking to do a stage 1 on a hardtail build, for optimal speed. I don't need offroad or even rough road handling, though I'll need decently thick tires. Afterwards I'll probably move the bbshd to a fat bike platform, as I feel the 1600w would be quite nice for an assisted fatbike build.

daygr · Aug 20, 2017

Holy crud, I just read back a few pages and saw the qulbix swingarm motor... I think I know what I'm getting.

Anyone know exactly who I should talk to about purchasing a Qulbix 76r in the states? Does the manufacturer ship here? Eh, I'll figure it out.

Edit: Also saw your interest in building a 15kW motor with a 219 final drive and single speed... *drools* How is that project going? I'd be interested in helping test it, but I am pretty new to the building scene.

LightningRods mid drive kit

1 MW

10 kW

1 MW

10 kW

1 MW

1 W

1 MW

1 MW

1 MW

100 W

1 MW

100 W

1 MW

1 mW

1 MW

1 mW

1 MW

1 mW

1 MW

10 W

1 mW

1 MW

1 MW

1 mW

1 mW

Similar threads