New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby extrasilver » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:07 am

i have my 20 amp boost converter wrapped up in a T-shit in my back pack.. after a hard ride it never goes further than a little warm

my mobile phone gets hotter while browsing the web :)
I've not noticed a difference in terms of my battery range also

one mistake i have made tho was when i didn't set the low voltage cut-off correctly.. even tho the bike felt like it still had a fully charged battery the battery itself was down to 28 volts ( 2.8v per cell ).. luckily i noticed it as soon as i got home when i pulled my multi-meter out, i put the battery on charge straight away and it recovered without any issues at all, capacity unaffected.. lucky me :)
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby aja » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:43 am

squee22 wrote:
aja wrote:Has anyone posted a video or could post a video of the sound emanating from a newish TSDZ2 motor - I'm looking at other options as I'm after a near silent e-assist to fit into my velomobile where sound is amplified, thus the quieter the better. Although it's not that loud, my TSDZ2 does whirr when under higher load. Looking at MAC and Q128H motors as well as other mid drives for inspiration, if the latest TSDZ isn't a fair bit quieter. I'm told Direct Drive are near silent but then one has issues of cogging or as someone suggested, running at very low assist (25W) so that cogging is eliminated but that is still lost power.
With the 48V motor, is one supported when one pedals at a higher cadence? I find my 36V one cuts support too early as I ride a recumbent with short cranks, thus spin them faster.
I've watched a couple of videos online of the TSDZ2, one recorded in June this year, and mine sounds quite similar; this is the TSDZ2B 500W motor so I guess it must be quite new: Noise can be heard at 03:04 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8FFOSwGLzU

Just did one for you. Enjoy

https://youtu.be/qJszwRDe_tY


Thank you for doing that; sounds pretty similar to my own TSDZ2 which I purchased over 2 years ago; yours is possibly a bit quieter, but the pitch is the same.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:53 am

And identical to mine too.
Now someone with the metal gear?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby RTIII » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:01 pm

aja wrote:
squee22 wrote:
aja wrote:Has anyone posted a video or could post a video of the sound emanating from a newish TSDZ2 motor - I'm looking at other options as I'm after a near silent e-assist to fit into my velomobile where sound is amplified, thus the quieter the better. Although it's not that loud, my TSDZ2 does whirr when under higher load. Looking at MAC and Q128H motors as well as other mid drives for inspiration, if the latest TSDZ isn't a fair bit quieter. I'm told Direct Drive are near silent but then one has issues of cogging or as someone suggested, running at very low assist (25W) so that cogging is eliminated but that is still lost power.
With the 48V motor, is one supported when one pedals at a higher cadence? I find my 36V one cuts support too early as I ride a recumbent with short cranks, thus spin them faster.
I've watched a couple of videos online of the TSDZ2, one recorded in June this year, and mine sounds quite similar; this is the TSDZ2B 500W motor so I guess it must be quite new: Noise can be heard at 03:04 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8FFOSwGLzU

Just did one for you. Enjoy

https://youtu.be/qJszwRDe_tY


Thank you for doing that; sounds pretty similar to my own TSDZ2 which I purchased over 2 years ago; yours is possibly a bit quieter, but the pitch is the same.


Squee, when was yours made? Mine is from the first week of June this year and is absolutely silent! Also, which model? Mine is a 48v, 500w, 15A, and there was a shortage of them at the time. I STRONGLY suspect all lower voltage (pre-48v) units were made previously and they have a lot of existing stock to sell off, so they may have been sold recently but were made some time ago, potentially before they solved their manufacturing issues.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby squee22 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:31 pm

RTIII wrote:
Squee, when was yours made? Mine is from the first week of June this year and is absolutely silent! Also, which model? Mine is a 48v, 500w, 15A, and there was a shortage of them at the time. I STRONGLY suspect all lower voltage (pre-48v) units were made previously and they have a lot of existing stock to sell off, so they may have been sold recently but were made some time ago, potentially before they solved their manufacturing issues.

I don't know when it was manufactured. How do I find that out?

I just got it this spring. It's a 36V 350W from PSWPower.

What manufacturing issues are you talking about?

I really don't find it loud at all. Like it makes about as much noise as I would expect an electric motor to make.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby RTIII » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:11 pm

squee22 wrote:
RTIII wrote:
Squee, when was yours made? Mine is from the first week of June this year and is absolutely silent! Also, which model? Mine is a 48v, 500w, 15A, and there was a shortage of them at the time. I STRONGLY suspect all lower voltage (pre-48v) units were made previously and they have a lot of existing stock to sell off, so they may have been sold recently but were made some time ago, potentially before they solved their manufacturing issues.

I don't know when it was manufactured. How do I find that out?

I just got it this spring. It's a 36V 350W from PSWPower.

What manufacturing issues are you talking about?

I really don't find it loud at all. Like it makes about as much noise as I would expect an electric motor to make.


In comparison, mine is absolutely silent. ... ZERO noise, that I can hear as a rider of a road bicycle, no matter what I'm doing with it, and I have pretty darned good ears. I don't have the experience with other units as you do, but what can you compare with "it doesn't make any noise I can hear"?

If you were to take the time - and I know it takes MANY hours because I've done it - to read this entire thread, you'll read others speculating that they had manufacturing issues - consistency, quality control, call it what you want - in the past that they appear to have corrected. At least we know that going WAY back, some units were silent and others weren't and it was more luck of the draw... We - as a community - THINK they got their act together around May of this year. ... Which is why I was asking. ... The guy you were making your video for was asking if he buys a new unit will it be as loud as his several year old unit, and you cannot tell him. And that's why I bothered speaking up...
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:13 am

I use mostly level 4. At the beginning did not hear it. Probably the sound is still the same, but I am more aware of it now that I learned to feel it. Probably I hear it mostly through my legs. My travel companions still hear nothing
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:03 am

A few more confirmations:

-Only the 42T and the 44T are curved (the curve is to improve the chainline)
-All chainrings are for "usual" chains. They have no versions for different chains (different speeds)
-Breaks and throttle are bypassed in the VLCD5 display to its internal connectors, therefore one common cable connects motor and display
-Since the XH18 has no connections for breaks and throttle, this is achieved with different cables that connect to the motor

I was able to add the throttle with the Y cable (3 ends, motor/display/throttle) , and I am able to add breaks with another (X?) cable.
The throttle and break functionality are already in the controller.
After all the throttle is (in simple words) a kind of hand-torque regulator, and
the breaks are nothing more than a switch off signal as far as I heard.
In fact, the breaks could simply be a switch that opens the circuit and connect in series with the throttle!

You get the right cable according to the display and/or throttle/non-throttle version you buy.

This makes sense, the solutions is more versatile this way, but it might not be 100% correct for old controller versions which where developed with only the VLCD5 in mind.

Finally, this is the coulomb meter I use. Tracks AH (remembers values even if the battery is switched off), displays W V Capacity(AH) and Capacity(time). This last one is very useful, it estimates how long can you keep pedaling at the current assist level. If you do not know your battery capacity, you can set any capacity and after one cycle you can calculate and set the true value.
TK15 manual.pdf
Coulomb meter
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby extrasilver » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:50 am

does anybody know if you need to have the speed sensor connected for the throttle to work?

when i attempted at trying to get my throttle to work i never connected the speed sensor, now i'm curious if the controller wont allow the throttle to work unless it knows the bike is moving :/


and does anybody have and news on the VLC5 country settings? EUR/JAP etc.. i'm curious if this is the reason why the throttle wont work

something for me to do this evening.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:00 am

The throttle works before the sensor knows the wheel is moving :)
If you are afraid it disconnects shortly after if does not get any speed signal, I can confirm the throttle worked even when I misplaced the magnet
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby extrasilver » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:08 am

small question..

if you do have a TSDZ2 system that works with a throttle... do you still need to peddle? or can you use the throttle without peddling at all?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby extrasilver » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:13 am

Patoruzu wrote:The throttle works before the sensor knows the wheel is moving :)
If you are afraid it disconnects shortly after if does not get any speed signal, I can confirm the throttle worked even when I misplaced the magnet


ah Thank you!

saved me from about 1 hour of work and disappointment this evening :D
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:24 am

As I said, it works as a parallel manual-torque sensor, so the motor moves without pedaling.
But you see/hear it struggles to get a still bike moving (bad for the gear, and inefficient with the battery).
Once it is moving it has no problem sustaining the chosen speed.

I see no use for a throttle except for testing and if you need (for whatever reason) to stop pedaling while already moving and sustain the speed.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby extrasilver » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:35 am

Patoruzu wrote:As I said, it works as a parallel manual-torque sensor, so the motor moves without pedaling.
But you see/hear it struggles to get a still bike moving (bad for the gear, and inefficient with the battery).
Once it is moving it has no problem sustaining the chosen speed.

I see no use for a throttle except for testing and if you need (for whatever reason) to stop pedaling while already moving and sustain the speed.



thanks again :)

i will just be using the throttle as a kind of cruise control.. as i mentioned in a previous post, i have a single speed bike so when i'm cruising to work along a 7+km stretch along the river ( flat ground ) and due to gearing/cadence issues, i have to peddle really fast then cruise, peddle fast, cruise, peddle fast.. you get the idea :)

so a throttle will solve this issue for me + the motor will be running at its max rpm so it should be happy efficiency wise
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:37 am

Yes, I took care to include your example as a second possible usage :)
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby RTIII » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:01 am

Patoruzu wrote:I see no use for a throttle except for testing and if you need (for whatever reason) to stop pedaling while already moving and sustain the speed.


And... when someone is injured and has a hard time pedalling - like me, right now. (I've been injured in my left knee for a few weeks now - cannot ride due to non-functional knee and non-functional throttle. :cry: )

Patoruzu wrote:Yes, I took care to include your [extrasilver's] example as a second possible usage :)


But not mine. :(
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby aja » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:18 am

So, I currently own this motor in the 250W format. I am looking at quieter options, but in the meantime want to resolve some of the existing issues that have appeared.

From the start:
I received the kit and proceeded to install over 2 years ago. First stumbling block - supplied wires were too small as I was fitting it to a recumbent trike.
I realised I would have to extend said wires, but back then there were no extension cables available or at least I did not know where to source them from.
I soldered together a wire I found to the existing cables, think it was USB or or a cat cable, can't remember, but sufficient wires that tallied up with the number of wires on the original cables.
I then turned everything on, in the order that the brief manual dictated. Nothing. I then had the idea of using a USB cable to connect the controller to the USB port on the battery; Success! Screen came on and went through the assist levels which all worked, however the speed sensor didn't work properly, and whatever I did, it refused to cooperate so I removed it and it is now relegated to some unknown part of my garage...this does mean that it is in effect a derestricted system but in reality I have been using it for work pulling a laden trailer so the power has been used for uphill assist at low speeds.

The assist has worked well and the torque sensor is good, though not at the same level as the mainstream ebikes.
Anyway, with this setup and a bit of gaffa tape to ensure USB cable didn't come loose from the USB port on the battery, everything was running ok...until a month or two ago...turned the system on and nothing showed up on the screen. I disconnected cables and reconnected. Nothing. However I noticed a click the first time I pressed the ON button on the screen so tried pedalling, and it gave maximum assist as default. As I use the trike for work I had to keep using it as it is.

One of the main reservations of the kit has been the lack of assistance at higher cadences and noticed the DC convertor trick that other people have undertaken but want to resolve the current issues I'm having first.
Perhaps re-do all the wiring? I've never been happy with having to power the bike using a USB cable to the battery. Or is there something wrong with the screen? Or should I get a new motor kit which may be quieter but still wouldn't resolve the cadence issues.

Any ideas appreciated.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby tomjasz » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:53 am

Patoruzu wrote:

I see no use for a throttle except for testing and if you need (for whatever reason) to stop pedaling while already moving and sustain the speed.


A majority of the American market demands a throttle option. In the EU where they are forbidden users are adapted but many still would like a throttle. I find mine useful on every ride. I often use it when crossing a highway when traffic has stopped for me. I scamper across quickly without pedaling. Also when I'm tired out or have ridden to far, I can get home without over stressing my legs. They are a must for old farts and less than able riders as well.

By the way, I PEDAL my bike and I sell (PEDDLE) motors.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Patoruzu » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:21 am

tomjasz wrote:I often use it when crossing a highway when traffic has stopped for me. I scamper across quickly without pedaling.

I do not see this as a practical usage.
The motor takes a lot of effort (and time) to get your bike moving and up to speed. If you want to cross fast, much faster is to set level 4 and pedal just a little. It's designed to assist you, not to be the sole force.

And if someone still wants a start up assistance (up to 6km/h) without pedaling, all non-throttle versions of this kit provide it.

Now, of course, if anyone wants to ride without pedaling at all, you need a throttle (you gain nothing performance wise, rather you loose it). But then I would question the choice of transport medium (bike), or at the very least the choice of motor (weak).

That being said, I must add that the motor is not weak, and it could bring you into severe injury situations if not properly used or on an improper bike not ready for such speeds/weight/momentum.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Daytriker » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:00 am

Perhaps re-do all the wiring? I've never been happy with having to power the bike using a USB cable to the battery. Or is there something wrong with the screen?


Aja, it would seem to me that your problems started with wiring & returning things to how they were meant to be is the most practical place to start. I have also installed this kit on a customers recumbent trike but in the 36v/350w version & using the correct extension cords. I have ordered an extra supply in 500 mm & 1 m lengths in case you are interested in buying them.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby RTIII » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:51 pm

aja wrote:So, I currently own this motor in the 250W format. I am looking at quieter options, but in the meantime want to resolve some of the existing issues that have appeared.

[...snip...]

Any ideas appreciated.


Hi Aja,

In a few days I'm going to be receiving my second TSDZ2, also a "modern" we know was built since the first of June, and I'll be trying it as soon as I can. ... Given my frame vendor sent me the wrong frame, I'm delayed about a week, and I don't know exactly when the new TSDZ2 will arrive either - the vendor said, "next day", but I'm pretty sure that was an error since it's already been three! ... Next weekend I should have enough stuff on hand to do my build - including, hopefully, the frame! (!!)

However, if you can wait a little, I'll try my unit and if it's just as quiet, maybe get a new unit with the longer harness from new? My new one is the 750W, 18A 48v unit... If you get a lower voltage unit, I'm concerned it'll be older stock, but then I have no real idea how fast the turnover is. I just know that for a great many products when a new, more capable version comes along, the older one tends to be abandoned and we see vendors lowering the prices to move the older stock. And I think we've seen that happen in this market.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby aja » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:10 pm

RTIII wrote:
aja wrote:So, I currently own this motor in the 250W format. I am looking at quieter options, but in the meantime want to resolve some of the existing issues that have appeared.

[...snip...]

Any ideas appreciated.


Hi Aja,

In a few days I'm going to be receiving my second TSDZ2, also a "modern" we know was built since the first of June, and I'll be trying it as soon as I can. ... Next weekend I should have enough stuff on hand to do my build - including, hopefully, the frame! (!!)...


Thanks; yes, I can wait; at the moment it's looking like a new BBS02 with gear sensor (I'm told they are a bit quieter), or a new TSDZ2. Does the new TSDZ2 have a wattage power rating inscribed on it like 250 or 500? I have a 36V battery so how would that marry with the 48V motor? I am waiting to hear if Brose will supply me a unit separate from a bike! Unlikely and probably expensive if they do, but that has been hands down the smoothest and quietest mid drive motor I've tested in this power bracket, the quietness aspect mainly due to the internal belt drive which I have not seen on any DIY kits. I know I can get a Steps from a supplier but both that and the Brose would require special mounts; I've also yet to test the Steps system.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Daytriker » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:29 pm

Here is my experience with this TSDZ2 so far. 60 kms. Ridden on a Recumbent Trike by a 65 year old lady weighing all of 50kgs. Customer was complaining of a rattling sound coming from the motor. Partial Dis-assembly shown here - https://www.facebook.com/Daytriker/post ... 2537793728
Haven't heard back from BMS or the Tongsheng factory yet as to whether I should dismantle further or return the unit. Problem hasn't revealed itself yet but may be internal & I am waiting for their response before I do more than just remove covers.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby aja » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:03 am

Daytriker wrote:
Perhaps re-do all the wiring? I've never been happy with having to power the bike using a USB cable to the battery. Or is there something wrong with the screen?


Aja, it would seem to me that your problems started with wiring & returning things to how they were meant to be is the most practical place to start. I have also installed this kit on a customers recumbent trike but in the 36v/350w version & using the correct extension cords. I have ordered an extra supply in 500 mm & 1 m lengths in case you are interested in buying them.


If that was the case, then why would it suddenly stop working 2 years later? As I've had to cut cables, it wouldn't simply be a case of connecting up the extension cords as I had to cut near to the motor to add the wire (which was where the higo connector was situated) so have very little room to play with and would also need to solder a higo connector at that point...I'll have a look. How much would you charge for the cables? I'm based in the UK so also have to take into account import duty as well as VAT. I also would need to purchase another speed sensor as I remember it getting caught in the bike early on and ripping from it's higo connecto; I also can't locate it at the moment. May well be worth purchasing a new unit if it it slightly quieter, or going to the dark side of Bafang ;)
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Postby Daytriker » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:23 am

Aja I don't have an exact price yet as I am still waiting for delivery myself & may also face additional import fees but a reasonable estimate would be $15. & $25. for the 500 & 1000 mm lengths.
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