new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
ebike11 said:
From the selection of chainrings that Cyclone has, what tooth option would be best for top speed along with my Shimano 7 speed freewheel cassette in the rear??
Looking for the fastest possible speed combination
Thanks

You want a 48T option on your chainring. Just think about your existing chainring; more teeth on the chainring translates to more wheel RPM and less torque. Less teeth give you better torque, more teeth give you a higher top speed.

Also be aware that more teeth is a larger diameter and therefore you will have a lower clearance on your bike before you grind those teeth off.

Also I think a 44/48/##T chainring should give you a little extra speed as the motor will spin the outer 48T ring 'faster' than at 44T that is driven by the motor. Mathematically you wont go more than 8% faster, top speed, than with a 44/44/##T chainring.

Actually i have 3 chainring set from cyclone
Which position should i put the 48 tooth sprocket in?
At the moment I have the sprockets in this order
48 44 32 48 is the innermost chainring
Should I switch the 48 tooth chainring to a better position for top speed? Thx
 
GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
ebike11 said:
GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
ebike11 said:
From the selection of chainrings that Cyclone has, what tooth option would be best for top speed along with my Shimano 7 speed freewheel cassette in the rear??
Looking for the fastest possible speed combination
Thanks


You want a 48T option on your chainring. Just think about your existing chainring; more teeth on the chainring translates to more wheel RPM and less torque. Less teeth give you better torque, more teeth give you a higher top speed.

Also be aware that more teeth is a larger diameter and therefore you will have a lower clearance on your bike before you grind those teeth off.

Also I think a 44/48/##T chainring should give you a little extra speed as the motor will spin the outer 48T ring 'faster' than at 44T that is driven by the motor. Mathematically you wont go more than 8% faster, top speed, than with a 44/44/##T chainring.

Actually i have 3 chainring set from cyclone
Which position should i put the 48 tooth sprocket in?
At the moment I have the sprockets in this order
48 44 32 48 is the innermost chainring
Should I switch the 48 tooth chainring to a better position for top speed? Thx

I'll have to work this out to give a good answer so bare with me.
Lets say the motor spins at 100 RPM. I cant remember exactly how many teeth are on the motor freewheel so lets go with 14T.
That's 1400Teeth per minute from the motor.
1400/48= 29.2RPM on the chain ring. And that translates to 29.2*44=1280Teeth per min
1280TPM on a high gear of 13T, for example, is 99RPM on the back wheel.
99RPM * tire circumference will give you a speed, but the rear wheel RPM is sufficient for us to figure out which will give you a better top speed.

Now lets figure out a 44/48/32T
1400tpm from motor
1400/44= 32rpm on chainring
32*48=1536tpm
In high gear, in this example 13T, = 118RPM on the back wheel

Finally lets try 32/48/44T
1400TPM from motor
1400/32= 44rpm on chainring
48*44= 2100TPM
With a 13T high gear, = 162RPM on the back wheel.

So you want your motor's free wheel to be large, and the chainring it's linked to should be small.
And then you want to do the same thing from your chainring to your cassette. Chain should ride on a large chainring, to a small chainring on the cassette. This will should give you a high theoretical top speed. However, I'm not entirely sure how to calculate what would actually be best for you because at some point the motor may not have enough torque to keep pushing faster than a certain speed.

Thanks for asking this though, it was fun for me to work out. I've ran these numbers before but I was looking to maximize my torque rather than my top speed. With the 72V battery im planning to build, Top speed shouldnt be much of an issue anyways.

One last note, Ive noticed that on my bike, which is without motor or battery at the moment. I have a hard time pedalling uphill when my chainring is in high gear. My high gear is a 44T in front, and my low in the back is something like a 34T. So if you have a lot of hills you may want to consider keeping the 32T available for when you need to climb a hill, rather than using it for more speed.

I think I did everything here correctly. Hope it helps!

Tha ks for your time and calculation..

So you saying that I need the largest possible sprocket on the uppermost part of the motor for example 14 or 15 tooth, then the smallest possible on the chainrings, so 34 tooth in my case, and also the smallest gear on the rear cassette?
 
GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
Lets say the motor spins at 100 RPM.
At 63V you'll get 700+ rpm from reducer and at 85V 900+ rpm
Source: http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=34238.msg785193#msg785193

I have 32/44/48 chainring with 48 being the driven one. With 16S battery and controller at 45A my top speed is close to 70km/h which is about what you'll get with 3kW (45x65) setup. To get faster than that you'll either need to get aero drag down or more power.
 
minimum said:
GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
Lets say the motor spins at 100 RPM.
At 63V you'll get 700+ rpm from reducer and at 85V 900+ rpm
Source: http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=34238.msg785193#msg785193

I have 32/44/48 chainring with 48 being the driven one. With 16S battery and controller at 45A my top speed is close to 70km/h which is about what you'll get with 3kW (45x65) setup. To get faster than that you'll either need to get aero drag down or more power.

Oh you have the 3 chainring set also?
So 32 is for the inside, 44 middle and 48 outer?
 
minimum said:
ebike11 said:
Oh you have the 3 chainring set also?
So 32 is for the inside, 44 middle and 48 outer?
Yes.

I believe the 44-48-24 is the best option IME, as I've been running that configuration for over 2 1/2 years now to achieve high RPM, 3k+7k miles to date and seems to work really well for chain longevity. I think you should increase teeth count at the motor cog instead of reducing the chainring teeth count. JMO.

G.
 
It doesn't give you more top speed. It gives you longer gears, like changing the final drive on your car, going from a 3.42 to a 4.10 gives you shorter gears, harder acceleration for shorter periods of time (but have to shift more to achieve any given speed), or going down to a 3.23 gives you longer gears, lower acceleration but higher shifting speed so you shift less times, but in the end, the top speed of your car remains exactly the same, that's all. It all boils down to Power = Force x Velocity (or Torque x RPM), your reduce the force and increase the velocity to achieve the desired power. More power = higher top speed. Ideally you want a CVT on an electric motor take advantage of all that low end torque.

I wouldn't reduce the drive (outer) chainring below 44T, unless you want to replace your chain every 1250 miles... trust me, I've tried; been running high RPM for over 2 1/2 years now and have over 12000 miles combined on 3 Cyclone high power eBikes and eTrikes and I've changed enough stretched chains to know about what works and what doesn't... you should first increase the motor tooth count before you decrease the chainring teeth count. A 14T motor cog into a 32T chainring + 3000W is a chain stretching tool... overdriving at the crank can only be done up to a point before you start seeing other problems. 8% overdrive 44-48-xx is the highest I would consider doing for chain longevity.

G.

GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
ebike11 said:
GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
ebike11 said:
From the selection of chainrings that Cyclone has, what tooth option would be best for top speed along with my Shimano 7 speed freewheel cassette in the rear??
Looking for the fastest possible speed combination
Thanks

You want a 48T option on your chainring. Just think about your existing chainring; more teeth on the chainring translates to more wheel RPM and less torque. Less teeth give you better torque, more teeth give you a higher top speed.

Also be aware that more teeth is a larger diameter and therefore you will have a lower clearance on your bike before you grind those teeth off.

Also I think a 44/48/##T chainring should give you a little extra speed as the motor will spin the outer 48T ring 'faster' than at 44T that is driven by the motor. Mathematically you wont go more than 8% faster, top speed, than with a 44/44/##T chainring.

Actually i have 3 chainring set from cyclone
Which position should i put the 48 tooth sprocket in?
At the moment I have the sprockets in this order
48 44 32 48 is the innermost chainring
Should I switch the 48 tooth chainring to a better position for top speed? Thx

I'll have to work this out to give a good answer so bare with me.
Lets say the motor spins at 100 RPM. I cant remember exactly how many teeth are on the motor freewheel so lets go with 14T.
That's 1400Teeth per minute from the motor.
1400/48= 29.2RPM on the chain ring. And that translates to 29.2*44=1280Teeth per min
1280TPM on a high gear of 13T, for example, is 99RPM on the back wheel.
99RPM * tire circumference will give you a speed, but the rear wheel RPM is sufficient for us to figure out which will give you a better top speed.

Now lets figure out a 44/48/32T
1400tpm from motor
1400/44= 32rpm on chainring
32*48=1536tpm
In high gear, in this example 13T, = 118RPM on the back wheel

Finally lets try 32/48/44T
1400TPM from motor
1400/32= 44rpm on chainring
48*44= 2100TPM
With a 13T high gear, = 162RPM on the back wheel.

So you want your motor's free wheel to be large, and the chainring it's linked to should be small.
And then you want to do the same thing from your chainring to your cassette. Chain should ride on a large chainring, to a small chainring on the cassette. This will should give you a high theoretical top speed. However, I'm not entirely sure how to calculate what would actually be best for you because at some point the motor may not have enough torque to keep pushing faster than a certain speed.

Thanks for asking this though, it was fun for me to work out. I've ran these numbers before but I was looking to maximize my torque rather than my top speed. With the 72V battery im planning to build, Top speed shouldnt be much of an issue anyways.

One last note, Ive noticed that on my bike, which is without motor or battery at the moment. I have a hard time pedalling uphill when my chainring is in high gear. My high gear is a 44T in front, and my low in the back is something like a 34T. So if you have a lot of hills you may want to consider keeping the 32T available for when you need to climb a hill, rather than using it for more speed.

I think I did everything here correctly. Hope it helps!
 
Well folks, today I had to replace the rear tire for the 1st time on my Cyclone eTrike at ~7100 miles, not bad considering it is now 1 1/2 years old and its been running 30+ cruising speeds and a few 0-60 pulls... During that time I've had to replace the fronts three times already, as I get about 2000 miles out of the front ones; I guess if I didn't go as fast or apexed every turn like I am racing the tires would probably last a lot longer... LOL :) Brake pads I am getting around 4k miles out of the fronts, and chains I am getting around 5k miles per cassette chain, I yet have to replace my drivechain at 7k miles. :) So far so good.

Also, today I finally replaced the last cardboard and duct tape temp panel with its final production molded plastic version... so the stage #2 for the aero update is now complete, pics tomorrow :) stage #3 of the aero update will probably include turning Alfa One into a 6.5 kW velomobile... we'll see :) I am kinda tired of thermoforming body panels...

G.
 
So what is the largest freewheel sproket that cyclone has available? Did you guys request a specific tooth size..14? ,15? Etc..
Maybe Ill ask him to install it before shipping the motor
 
I am using that Cycle Analyst with a Cyclone 3000, and I just got a second one for my new Cyclone 3000 build. I'm using it with the stock controller. What features are of interest to you?

GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
Does anyone know how well this:
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html
Works with the cyclone 3kw, or the KbS72121x kelly controller?
It sure seems to do quite a bit for you. Maybe it's better for people with one of the 'stock' controller that would come in a kit?
 
I haven't tried the 7500 because it needs so much current (120A controller!), and the motor is so big and heavy. I don't really see a point to it because the 3000 is already more than powerful enough for me at 52V. What kind of speeds are you trying to achieve? I typically ride trails with my Cyclone bikes, so speed isn't a priority.

But based on what I've read here, you should be able to get into the 50s or higher (mph) at 72V with the 3000 (way too fast for me to feel safe even with 6" of suspension travel).

ebike11 said:
@robocam...do you recommend the 3000 or 7500 motor?
Also would you have a ballpark figure regarding top speed with 72V ?
 
What kind of continuous speeds are you trying to achieve? It will give you more top end, but your range will be very limited due to how much power it uses.

ebike11 said:
Hi guys
I noticed that most discussion is about the 3000watt motor. What about the larger 7500watt? i believe thats the size. Are the specs for the 3000 just as good overall? Wouldnt the larger motor give more top end? I dont plan on pedaling and i have 72v pack
Thanks!
 
Yes, they are exactly the same. The one I ordered recently didn't even come with a Luna Cycle sticker.

markz said:
Slowrider said:
Hi, is there a big difference from the kit direct from Cyclone vs Luna cycle kit ?

Seems like the Luna cycle is out of stock so I am tempted to get it direct from factory.

My guess is they are exactly the same, which is to say he probably just slapped a Luna sticker on there, so branding his own. Now he probably could have done perhaps some heavier guage wire, better mounting but I am unsure. Again, just guesses.
 
Pablo is from Sick Bike Parts, another great store for parts and accessories =) (chainrings, spiders, bottom brackets, freewheels, etc.) BTW, did you guys stop selling the Cyclone Mini?

Honestly, I would stick with the stock controller because it is tried and true. I looked into getting one of those Kelly controllers, but I could not find anyone with a successful implementation. I found lots of people that had problems getting them to work with the Cyclone. I also thought about getting the Bluetooth programmable controller, but then I decided that I could just solder the shunt and limit the current with a Cycle Analyst, so I went with the stock controller again.

GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
Pablo said:
Why limit the purchasing to only Luna or Cyclone direct?

From everywhere I ended up visiting, luna has a really good price for their kit, and you continue to get good discounts when you upgrade parts.

For example, the kelly controller Luna offers is a kelly kbs72121x, this controller is a $90 upgrade from luna, $170 from kelly's website.

The staff I've chatted with from Luna were also very helpful, and have kept me well informed as I've planned by build.

I also haven't seen a lot of kits that let you upgrade components in the kit. The kit just is what it is. Which is fine, but I want what I want, and Luna helps me get just about everything at a fairly competitive price, at one stop.
 
I didn't get a Luna sticker either, but when I emailed them about it, they sent me some for free. Why do you think you're missing other pieces?

GIGATT said:
I did not even get a Luna Sticker:-(.

I feel like I am missing other pieces too.
 
Are you referring to the 3000 or the Mini? The 3000 has a 6:1 reduction, and the Mini has a 1:9.55 reduction.

ebike11 said:
The luna kit says 7 to 1 gear reduction..i thought the motor was 6 to 1 ? Are they exactly the same motor as on the cyclone site?
 
It depends on what gear ratio provides you with your top speed. You have a fixed amount of power, and only one gear ratio will allow you to achieve that top speed at maximum efficiency. The only way you're going to find this out is to try it first.

But if you're interested in the gear that will spin the rear wheel the fastest, it will be the one where you have the smallest chainring on the outside (the one the motor drives), and the largest chainring on the inside (the one driving the rear wheel). So that would be a 24 on the outside, and a 52 on the inside (or whatever the largest chainring you can fit on your bike would be).

ebike11 said:
From the selection of chainrings that Cyclone has, what tooth option would be best for top speed along with my Shimano 7 speed freewheel cassette in the rear??
Looking for the fastest possible speed combination
Thanks
 
Here's the calculation. The Cyclone 3000 has a 6:1 reduction.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=200#p1147701

GlowInTheDarkNinja said:
Their site says it's a 6:1 on one page and a 5:1 on another page. Someone on this thread calculated the correct value. Based on the tooth count it's something lik 5.3:1 or 5.7:1, I cant remember exactly.
 
You can't move the 48T outer chainring because it is mounted to the freewheel. You need a regular 48T chainring with a 104mm BCD if you want to mount one in the middle.

I think you mean that the 48T is your outermost (farthest away from the center).

Before changing anything, have you measured your top speed in your highest 2 gears to see if they are different?

ebike11 said:
Actually i have 3 chainring set from cyclone
Which position should i put the 48 tooth sprocket in?
At the moment I have the sprockets in this order
48 44 32 48 is the innermost chainring
Should I switch the 48 tooth chainring to a better position for top speed? Thx
 
I honestly don't think you need to change the stock motor sprocket. If it costs extra, I wouldn't do it until you find out how the stock kit behaves on your bike.

ebike11 said:
So what is the largest freewheel sproket that cyclone has available? Did you guys request a specific tooth size..14? ,15? Etc..
Maybe Ill ask him to install it before shipping the motor
 
Thx robocam and gman for your input!!

I know this thread is for the 3000w motor and i read 7500 is probably too power for regular MTB componants, but since my goal ks to go as fast as possible for commuting on streets and highway, couldnt i get the 7500 motor and tame it down to the 3000 motor level or higher if i want?
 
Sure thing. Like Gman said, not as many have tried it, so you'll be in uncharted territory. You might want to ask this guy some questions about his setup. He runs it at 48V (5760W if he's running at 120A) but it still looks pretty quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KemJO_B2FGE

You can probably limit the current/power with a Cycle Analyst V3. I think you should also look into hub motors. So many things can go wrong in a bicycle drivetrain. I can't imagine what would happen if the chain were to get caught and lock up your rear wheel at highway speeds.

I hope you plan to wear motorcycle armor. I really think speeds that high are far too dangerous to be worth risking your life for. I really don't think going on the highway or going at highway speeds is remotely safe on a bicycle.

ebike11 said:
Thx robocam and gman for your input!!

I know this thread is for the 3000w motor and i read 7500 is probably too power for regular MTB componants, but since my goal ks to go as fast as possible for commuting on streets and highway, couldnt i get the 7500 motor and tame it down to the 3000 motor level or higher if i want?
 
robocam said:
I am using that Cycle Analyst with a Cyclone 3000, and I just got a second one for my new Cyclone 3000 build. I'm using it with the stock controller. What features are of interest to you?

I'm new Cyclone 3000 rider and just using the stock everything. I'd love to get a nice display and really would like to be able to adjust my controller. This sounds great. Would you be able to help a guy out integrating the Cycle Analyst into the stock C3k configuration?
 
I'd be happy to try. Which throttle do you have?

CobraJet said:
robocam said:
I am using that Cycle Analyst with a Cyclone 3000, and I just got a second one for my new Cyclone 3000 build. I'm using it with the stock controller. What features are of interest to you?

I'm new Cyclone 3000 rider and just using the stock everything. I'd love to get a nice display and really would like to be able to adjust my controller. This sounds great. Would you be able to help a guy out integrating the Cycle Analyst into the stock C3k configuration?
 
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