new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby ebike11 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:14 pm

minimum wrote:
ebike11 wrote:On 60A 72V im hitting 60kph with 100% full battery power

I get about 70km/h with ~65V (16S) and 50A (with 12FET Powervelocity controller). Common hardtail MTB with 26"x2" offroad tires that came with bike.


Hi..what gearing are you running?
Motor to chainring? And chainrung to rear cassette?
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby minimum » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:54 pm

ebike11 wrote:Hi..what gearing are you running?
Motor to chainring? And chainrung to rear cassette?

Motor stock 14T, driven chainring 48T. 40T to rear 7-speed
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby ebike11 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:06 am

minimum wrote:
ebike11 wrote:Hi..what gearing are you running?
Motor to chainring? And chainrung to rear cassette?

Motor stock 14T, driven chainring 48T. 40T to rear 7-speed


Very strange..mine is 14 to 48 and 44 to 7 speed cassette but i use 18t on cassette.

I cant reach 70kph. I also have 60A and 72V
Is your bike 26 inch?
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby ebike11 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 am

I opened the cyclone controller and the caps are 80V
Do you think 20 cell pack at 84V would work? Or would the controller go bye bye?
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:00 am

minimum wrote:
ebike11 wrote:Hi..what gearing are you running?
Motor to chainring? And chainrung to rear cassette?

Motor stock 14T, driven chainring 48T. 40T to rear 7-speed


What cog are you on when at top speed? My eBike on 3kW hits its 70kph on the 15T cog (8th gear, 10 speed cassette), anything smaller it doesn't go any faster, unless I am on a downhill.

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:00 am

ebike11 wrote:I opened the cyclone controller and the caps are 80V
Do you think 20 cell pack at 84V would work? Or would the controller go bye bye?


Some ppl have done it, so I think its safe to say it will work...

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:10 am

@minimum

This is a detail that perhaps some ppl overlook, but its worth noting that (as you stated) you're not using the stock Cyclone controller; instead you're using a fairly good FOC controller, which is way better than the OEM Cyclone square taper controller. FOC Controllers not only are more efficient, they also produce more torque throughout the entire RPM range and on top of that have more RPMs too, thus produce more power; therefore, the area under the curve of your powerband is probably greater than the standard OEM Cyclone controller, even running higher voltage and more amps.

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby ebike11 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:27 am

gman1971 wrote:@minimum

This is a detail that perhaps some ppl overlook, but its worth noting that (as you stated) you're not using the stock Cyclone controller; instead you're using a fairly good FOC controller, which is way better than the OEM Cyclone square taper controller. FOC Controllers not only are more efficient, they also produce more torque throughout the entire RPM range and on top of that have more RPMs too, thus produce more power; therefore, the area under the curve of your powerband is probably greater than the standard OEM Cyclone controller, even running higher voltage and more amps.

G.


Oh i see. Maybe its time to do a controller upgrade haha
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby CobraJet » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:02 am

Has anyone tried using a hobby brushless speed control like this one?

Image
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-tru ... tore=en_us
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:52 am

CobraJet wrote:Has anyone tried using a hobby brushless speed control like this one?

Image
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-tru ... tore=en_us


Nope, but some are great with other popular motors; the problem is that you'll need a very high voltage; The Castle Creations are popular ones I've seen... I think most of them are up to 12S, but I don't know as of lately.

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby minimum » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:03 am

gman1971 wrote:What cog are you on when at top speed? My eBike on 3kW hits its 70kph on the 15T cog (8th gear, 10 speed cassette), anything smaller it doesn't go any faster, unless I am on a downhill.

Last/smallest one. If I counted right it's 14T.

You're likely right about the controller and it's effects on performance. With field weakening enabled it will go even more.

ebike11 wrote:Is your bike 26 inch?

Yes.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:28 am

minimum wrote:
gman1971 wrote:What cog are you on when at top speed? My eBike on 3kW hits its 70kph on the 15T cog (8th gear, 10 speed cassette), anything smaller it doesn't go any faster, unless I am on a downhill.

Last/smallest one. If I counted right it's 14T.

You're likely right about the controller and it's effects on performance. With field weakening enabled it will go even more.

ebike11 wrote:Is your bike 26 inch?

Yes.


How hard was to set the halls for the controller? I am thinking about the 8kW one for my trike.

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby ebike11 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:53 am

minimum wrote:
gman1971 wrote:What cog are you on when at top speed? My eBike on 3kW hits its 70kph on the 15T cog (8th gear, 10 speed cassette), anything smaller it doesn't go any faster, unless I am on a downhill.

Last/smallest one. If I counted right it's 14T.

You're likely right about the controller and it's effects on performance. With field weakening enabled it will go even more.

ebike11 wrote:Is your bike 26 inch?

Yes.


Maybe thats where you also got some extra speed. I can only go down to 18T on the cassette before it skips.

Gman..if I do 52T to 34T...big ring to big ring, wouldnt that slow me down since going down on the 18t, 16t and 14t increases speed?
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby minimum » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:04 am

gman1971 wrote:How hard was to set the halls for the controller? I am thinking about the 8kW one for my trike.

I followed the chart diagram posted here in ES (ES wiki probably). It was a 1st time for me, so it's hard to comment. Around 10-12th time was the hit :)

With 3kW motors, there's inherent flaw/quirk: hall sensors will pick up a "stray" magnetic flux between magnets. It initially made my motor to "run away" - applying full throttle and releasing it meant that RPM still remained near max range. It's not something you'd want to happen while riding. Trapezoidial controllers (including stock one) are immune to this. That's why AFAIK Cyclone 3k hasn't been paired with Phaserunner or others sine controllers very successfully.

Spent a lot of time debugging and searching for a cause.
There was a YT video from a Russian guy (this forum/topic) who disassembled one motor and tried to get it working with a Kelly sine controller. Unfortunately the video is now disabled/unavailable.
In the video, it was solved by replacing halls. I tried to replace originals to SS41's but that didn't help.
In this post there's couple of screenshots: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=90446#p1318337

In the end I added extra 560ohm pullup resistors as a workaround. So far it has been working. Will try to replace halls to SS413A as those seem to be with lower sensitivity than SS41's.
Last edited by minimum on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:52 am

Nice, thanks.

Which wires did you use the pullup resistor on? the halls signal wire? Any chance of doing a small napkin schematic? It might be totally worth it doing the work to get a more efficient controller... I opened the motor to inspect coils a while ago, and left the halls as is, but when inspecting I noticed they weren't lined up perfect, so I would think there is a timing issue as well.. who knows...

G.



minimum wrote:
gman1971 wrote:How hard was to set the halls for the controller? I am thinking about the 8kW one for my trike.

I followed the chart diagram posted here in ES (ES wiki probably). It was a 1st time for me, so it's hard to comment. Around 10-12th time was the hit :)

With 3kW motors, there's inherent flaw/quirk: hall sensors will pick up a "stray" magnetic flux between magnets. It initially made my motor to "run away" - applying full throttle and releasing it meant that RPM still remained near max range. It's not something you'd want to happen while riding. Trapezoidial controllers (including stock one) are immune to this. That's why AFAIK Cyclone 3k hasn't been paired with Phaserunner or others sine controllers very successfully.

Spent a lot of time debugging and searching for a cause.
There was a YT video from a Russian guy (this forum/topic) who disassembled one motor and tried to get it working with a Kelly sine controller. Unfortunately the video is now disabled/unavailable.
In the video, it was solved by replacing halls. I tried to replace originals to SS41's but that didn't help.
In this post there's couple of screenshots: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=90446#p1318337

In the end I added extra 560ohm pullup resistors as a workaround. So far it has been working. Will try to replace halls to SS413A as those seem to be with lower sensitivity than SS41's.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby minimum » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:52 pm

gman1971 wrote:Which wires did you use the pullup resistor on? the halls signal wire? Any chance of doing a small napkin schematic?

Soldered directly on the halls' PCB. Outer pins are vcc+ and signal (middle one is GND), so I soldered 1/4W resistor on the bottom/tracks side, so that resistor's body is parallel to PCB edge and leads go aside pins.
Don't have picture but here's a crude drawing:
20170811_150604.jpg
20170811_150604.jpg (160.2 KiB) Viewed 266 times
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:00 pm

I am going to try this, I suspect this could be an improvement even for stock controllers.

Thanks!

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby flat tire » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:10 pm

Is anyone using higher voltage like 30S RC Lipo for the cyclone? I'm running on 10S RC Lipo right now on the stock controller and it's pretty slow. Waiting to buy a decent controller once I figure out if 30s will be enough. That will let me run a really low reduction and still get decent speed (POWER!). I'm pretty hesitant to try 20S on the stock controller, don't want to get stranded. Maybe I'll open it and replace the caps.
Last edited by flat tire on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:53 pm

flat tire wrote:Is anyone using higher voltage like 30S RC Lipo for the cyclone? I'm running on 10S RC Lipo right now on the stock controller and it's pretty slow. Waiting to buy a decent controller once I figure out if 30s will be enough. That will let me run a really low reduction and still get decent speed (POWER!). I'm pretty hesitant to try 20S on the stock controller, don't want to get stranded. Maybe I'll open it and replace the caps.


20S is max for the stock controller, anything above that who knows what will happen. 30S will most likely blow the controller...

EDIT: I run 18S and the thing is pretty fast already... even on 12S is pretty darn good, gets me to 42 mph on the eBike on 60A...

G.
Last edited by gman1971 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby markz » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:34 pm

Gotta open it up and see what the caps say.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby Slowrider » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:23 pm

Chain line!

So I have come this far with the innstall
Image
Image
I have 3 chain rings that come with the kit. As you can see from the picture the outer sprocket aligns quite well with the sprocket from the motor.

But I thought that the small sprocket from the motor should go to the inner small sprocket on the crank side, then I could use the two outer sprockets with the derailer to the rear casett!
Like it is now I can only use the sprocket from the motor to the outer sprockets crank side then use just the middel sprocket to the rear casett. I do not think I can use the inner as this one is quite small.

The two outer cogs/sprockets (what is the correct term") are 46 and 48.
Hope you understand !
Last edited by Slowrider on Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby Slowrider » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:38 pm

Some more pictures of the installment;

The motor plate is quite far out on the other side:
Image

But pedals clears on both sides of the motor
Image
Image
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:12 pm

markz wrote:Gotta open it up and see what the caps say.


Caps say 80V, but ppl have ran those things on 84V so, it is hard to say.

G
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby gman1971 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:13 pm

You should probably talk to Luna about what side plate they sent you, maybe you got a wider one for a wider BB?

G.
Alpha One 6+kW tadpole e-Trike 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
Alpha Two 3kW tadpole e-Trike 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
Cyclone 3000W e-Bike with "mode #3 unlock mod", 42mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby flat tire » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:04 pm

The old design (which according to eric I got the last of) used standoffs and spacers to attach those mounting plates so it fit easily on a regular bb. They're totally removed from the motor and attached to an aluminum spacer on the cyclone I have. I had a hell of a time trying to get all the hardware though. God help you to correct the spacing issue. At one point I was told that the motor is for advanced users only and I should have read that (lol). Then I got all the hardware and installed it literally in minutes. :D
Last edited by flat tire on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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