LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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LightningRods
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:00 pm

notger wrote: I did with the original gng small Block from the very beginning, never tried "Your small Block" but technically ther eis no difference.
I did post some stuff in this thread i think or in the adaptto owners thread. not sure
I'm really glad to hear that, notger! From the perspective of the controller there would be no difference between the large and small motors. The Big Block is literally just two Small Blocks siamesed together. Same pole count, same hall board, same end cases. 62kv vs 67kv.

If there were any specific tricks to getting the controller to sync with my motors I'd appreciate it if you would share them here. Several people tried the combination and could not get it to work. I likewise don't sell controllers. I want people to have as many controller options as possible. Both the Lyen and PowerVelocity work well.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:16 pm

Mike,

Latter on , when I get a 16 mm hex wrench/key I can send you pictures of the crank arms off the spindle of the Race Face Direct Drive Cranks,


For Reference with Race Face DD Cranks both a 8 mm and 16 mm hex key is needed, 8 mm for taking off the drive side crankarm/chainring off the spindle, and 16 mm hex to take off the non drive side crank arm.

Once you see the spindle by itself, you will then see how you can make custom ones in order to fit both a freewheel , and, two chainrings.

I think you are going to like the Direct Drive Cranksets .

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:31 pm

Nice! Thanks!
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:39 pm

In the mean time , or even better pictures than I can get
here are a couple from Race Face's Website.



Spindle here ( note they come in different lengths , and corresponding BB will have to be used .) http://www.jensonusa.com/Race-Face-BSA- ... m-Bracket/

https://www.raceface.com/products/detai ... it-68-73mm

A spyder adaptor , ( would have to make one to use the freewheels currently used on mid-drive cranksets )

http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-cyclone/

http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:36 am

Hey Mike,

Have you seen this Salsa frame?
I like it better than the one I have.....
.just trying to figure of the big block and all my other parts would bolt on...
The two speed looks interesting..
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:45 am

Hi Paul,

Yes I have seen that frame. It's similar to the Brand X frame you have but much better quality. I scaled a profile shot of the drive you have now with the profile shot of the Blackborow and composited them in Photoshop. I have no doubt that your motor and all of the jackshaft and other drive bits will work. You will need new side plates and new mounts to fit the Blackborow frame.

If you want to run a derailleur with the drive we'll need to use an idler to drop the return run of the final drive chain below the chain stay tube. If you want to run a Rohloff we should be able to route both runs of final drive chain over the top of the chain stay as shown.

The pedal gearing on the Blackborow is super low. They're figuring on human power moving a heavy bike plus load. There is probably limited space at the chain stay for a large one speed chainring. The two speed Speed Drive should be perfect. You can run a 34t chainwheel and have it be the equivalent of an 85 tooth in overdrive. That should allow pedaling up into the 40 mph range.

If you buy one of these frames and ship it to me I'll get the drive all set up for you. I'd love to be able to offer this drive on a quality frame. I've stopped production on the previous version of it.

Thanks,
Mike

Image
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:56 am

I like that look..and I really like the frame.

I may be coming to Seattle (working in Houston now)
and I could drop everything off on the way through.

I will know how much longer they will need me here soon.

Ttyl.
Thanks Mike

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:30 pm

My mid drives continue to evolve. The high end downhill bikes with "doglegs", or bends in their front frame downtube, have always been difficult to mount mid drives on. If you mount a mid drive with a short mounting bracket on one of these bikes the motor hangs down like a cow's udder, begging to be smashed on rocks. My initial solution was to provide a "stretch" bracket that moved the entire drive forward. The problem with this solution was that the brackets became long and prone to flexing and the secondary drive chain was overly long. It finally occurred to me that the stretch bracket created room for the jackshaft inline with the motor. The brackets are now much stiffer and the drive chains much shorter.

Image

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I've also switched over to aluminum sheets because aluminum has 2/3 the torsional strength of steel at 1/3 the weight. So it's twice as strong by weight. There's a reason they make airplanes out it.

Image

Image

All that is left to do is to machine a couple of parts for the secondary jackshaft. This two stage drive is better suited to steep climbing and pedaling with the motor. The single stage is for going fast and not pedaling. I may end up having the two stage be a Small Block only drive and the one stage be Big Block only because each of those motors is more appropriate to those respective drive solutions. Too much reduction on the Big Block bends metal. Too little reduction on the Small Block won't climb the steepest hills. Since the Small Block will make 3000 watts that's plenty for pedaling along with. Seriously, how badly do you need to humiliate those Spandex boys?
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:40 pm

True, they get bent out of shape when I pass them with the cargo bike while drinking a beer...., :-)

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 pm

Mike, do you have a better motor/rear hub solution for me on that Salsa frame.....now that you know how I ride.

I have a friend who may want to buy the Brand X....

With 197 rear drop out..I don't know if the 135 Rolly will work.
Maybe it would be better to start with a clean canvas...

I guess I am asking, how would you go about juicing up the Blackborrow?
Be creative...hahahaha...I know you are!

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:48 pm

pkirkll wrote:True, they get bent out of shape when I pass them with the cargo bike while drinking a beer...., :-)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:54 pm

pkirkll wrote:Mike, do you have a better motor/rear hub solution for me on that Salsa frame.....now that you know how I ride.

I have a friend who may want to buy the Brand X....

With 197 rear drop out..I don't know if the 135 Rolly will work.
You know for a fact that the rear drop out is 197mm? If so that's fantastic! One of the huge fails of Brand X was it's 135mm dropout width. With all of that real estate back there you can spread out and do whatever you like. I like a single chainwheel in the front and 8 speeds on the back with a wide ratio spread. We'll just need to work out that idler to route the chain return under the chain stay. It's going to be a lot cheaper than another Rohloff! I'm not sure that even the 170 Rolly would work on a 197mm.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:07 am


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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:11 am

Yes, lots cheaper...and you and I both know as smooth and beautiful as that Roly was....it was just too many gears for my application...I need grunt and gruntier...

Plus..don't forget. Pedal assist with throttle back up :wink:

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:14 am

Sweet! Good news! Now I love that Salsa frame more than ever. Kinda wanting one....
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:16 am

The Rohloff does have too many gears. If only they would offer 1/3 the number of gears at 1/3 the price.
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:19 am

Wow, that would be great!

I guess I should make some money and ship a frameset...

Give me a month..
I just got back from a 3 month trip to Australia.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:21 am

I wish I knew someone from Salsa to make a deal on publicity for a good deal on parts.
I may try that..
Don't ever get anything if you don't ask, right.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:34 am

Yeah, that "free stuff in return for publicity" mostly works on desperate artists and musicians. Even they get smart eventually.
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:25 pm

Hahaha...

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by pkirkll » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:27 pm

Hahaha ...

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bchampig » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:55 pm

A few pics of my LR small block single stage. I built up the Marin Quake...it was a new old stock frame for a couple hundred bucks. I built the wheelset on a set of DT350 hubs, and installed a Mattoc Pro fork, and Magura MT5 brakes.

I've got the powervelocity 12Fet sine controller and a Cycle Analyst 3 for control. Hopefully I'll give it a good workout this weekend.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:08 pm

Looks great! That controller just squeaked into the available space on the frame. Good thing it wasn't an 18 FET!

Let me know how it runs for you. It looks like you have a nice big low gear sprocket. That's all you need.
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bchampig » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:41 pm

LightningRods wrote:Looks great! That controller just squeaked into the available space on the frame. Good thing it wasn't an 18 FET!

Let me know how it runs for you. It looks like you have a nice big low gear sprocket. That's all you need.
Thanks Mike,

I'm looking forward to giving it a good workout this weekend. I'm running a 42T on the rear. I could go bigger if needed, maybe a 48T.

Have you tried a 13T on the motor shaft to reduce noise? I'm wondering if it makes a difference, and if it hurts the hill climbing ability much.

Also, if I eventually decide to upgrade to the big block motor, will it work with my existing brackets? I assume it would just need some new aluminum spacers?

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:27 pm

Brian-

A 13t sprocket is about 8% larger than the 12t. It doesn't make a huge difference on either hill climbing or noise. A 15t makes a noticeable difference on both. A 15t driver is the go-to mod for two stage owners who don't care about pedaling with the motor and want more speed.

Yes I intentionally designed the new drives so that the same side plates work on all of the variations of motors and BB shell width. If you keep the same BB shell width you can just swap out the outer spacers and run the longer bolts for the Big Block. If you want to change BB width you swap out both sets of 4 alloy spacers.

A 42t rear sprocket will give you just under 12:1 overall reduction to the rear wheel. That's a top speed of about 22 mph in low running at 14s (52v). It should climb well.

Have fun!
Mike
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