new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Oct 12, 2017 9:23 pm

I've been trying out different methods of rear rack storage. The best was the plastic ammo box from Cabella's. But it was starting to deform from the weight of the batteries (2 bricks of 18"L x 5" x 5") It was placed on one side and it was a little bit out of balance for the V-kickstand. I have also been getting too many people looking and asking questions. Thats because I have the controller on top of the rack near the seat, and I have the huge charger ontop behind the controller. It will be interesting to see how many people will notice just the Cyclone motor itself, I doubt very many will.

Just made this half bag and half box pannier that will house my three Meanwell HRP-24-300 on the bottom, and the controller on top. The wood part is all done. I will go to Fabricland tomorrow and find some heavy duty fabric to wrap around the steps only, leaving good airflow for the controller. Oops I almost forgot, I still have to drill some holes where the charger will be (below the controller), it has fans that push air out from one end, but my assumption is I have to drill holes on the other side where the terminal connections are. I will have some flaps to cover up the holes when I am riding. A giant wing nut on the backboard to keep the one piece (Box1 picture) from falling off.

Other then that I like to carry with my 11" or 14" zip ties, electrical tape, allen keys, a tube, puncture kit and anything else, will be on the bottom step. As I put more stuff in, it will raise up and get more room on the second step. The big holes are for the hose clamps to go through.
Pannier Box.jpg
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Pannier Box1.jpg
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There is a good chance I will end up angling the front off the bottom.

The other side I will make longer, protruding out the back more for long distance rides.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ebike11 » Oct 12, 2017 9:43 pm

That looks heavy

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Oct 12, 2017 9:59 pm

I wanted a strong frame, that is why I am doing half wooden & half fabric. What I havent accounted for were my batteries. I am going to split it up, and put one one either side. Until I start building the other sides box/bag whatever you want to call it, I will zip tie them ontop of the rear rack.

This is lighter then metal ammo box which is what I was going to buy, but there were not any of the size I wanted and their weights were 15 to 22 lbs, the largest size was 32x12.5x6.5, where my box/bag thingy is 12x12.5x9 with 3/4" laminated wood. Other side I will make of 1/2".

I like what I built, Im not going to put holes in the lower box as the controller is mounted and the piece of wood comes out but the chargers dont come out without unscrewing controller. When I charge, I will leave piece of wood off. It will be better that way, then fiddling with covers that most likely will fall off from branches catching.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 13, 2017 1:36 am

OK, onto my next challenge. I need to remove a White Industries The Eno crankset/freewheel... ideally without spending $40+ on a removal tool. Possible solution, 3D printing a similar shaped tool (thinking Polycarbonate should be strong enough). But, what would drastically help is if I could get accurate dimensions of this tool so I can build a 3D model of it. Just need to find someone with one, and a caliper, that will send me some measurements... otherwise, I suppose I can start off with any info I can find online, and some trial and error printing. I did purchase the HD/UHD Freewheel removal tool, which may work... tho maybe I should have bought the other freewheel removal tool, it's only $7, and looks more similar to the Eno removal tool. Given, the HD/UHD freewheels are also made by White industries... tho that doesn't mean the same tool would work on them.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Oct 13, 2017 2:05 am

progrock wrote:I need to remove a White Industries The Eno crankset/freewheel... ideally without spending $40+ on a removal tool. Possible solution, 3D printing a similar shaped tool (thinking Polycarbonate should be strong enough)
I strongly doubt it. And my one experience with trying to laser cut polycarbonate makes me suggest not using any thermal processes on that material. Just don't.

Get a real remover tool. It looks like ten bucks will do it.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 13, 2017 4:08 am

I can promise you, 3d printing Polycarbonate is NOTHING like making the mistake of putting PC in a laser cutter (which is also illegal in every state that actually cares.. for good reason). Unlike laser cutting PC, 3D printing does not cause those horrendous smokey fumes... in fact it is my favorite material by far to print. It's incredibly strong, very heat resistant.. plus can be annealed to increase both. There are only 2 real negatives I'm aware of when it comes to 3d printing PC,.... 1) it requires a very hot heated bed to print/stick well, I suaully stick to 130C, which is significantly hotter than most peoples printer's capabilities.... 2) it likes to warp/peel off the edges... so large flat prints are next to impossible even at 130C, tho a heated enclosed print chamber can help a bit there. If your printer can handle the needed temperatures, I highly recommend pushplastic's PC+PBT.... the PBT seems to help with the printing, while still retaining pretty much identical to PC characteristics. Anyway.. point is... 3d printing PC is in no ways even similar to laser cutting it... otherwise it would not be so popular among the people with printers that can handle it. It's also significantly stronger than every other common filament I have used... obv stronger than PLA, but also better than ABS, PETG, Nylons..... even small/thin printed pieces are almost impossible to brake by hand.

Anyway, on a side note... looks like I actually don't need the white industries tool right now.. tho I would still love to print one for future use.

What I do need... and what just drove me totally insane for the last hour... is a Phil Wood bottom bracket install/removal tool (BMRTC0)... took me forever to realize that's what this bike had. It's an 18 spine, instead of the standard 20... and a tony bit smaller diameter... tho looks almost identical. Luckily it's only a $15-$20 tool... but still a PITA.... was not expecting to have one of the ONLY BB styles that I don't already have a tool for on this bike. But could be worse... glad I found it now... while I'm still waiting on the motor kit. Now I just need to find the best place to order this from to get it quickly.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Scott76308 » Oct 13, 2017 7:08 am

Can someone please tell me how to wire in the brake cut out switches. I feel like I read something a couple months ago but have spent the last 2 days trying to find it. I don't see any place to wire them up except possibly inline on one of the throttle wires. If so, which one? Also I want to try and use the bafang levers which have 3 wires. I am hoping 2 of those wires are a closed circuit while not pulling on the lever. Thanks for any info you can give me.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 13, 2017 7:36 am

Here is another take on Li-ion battery charging from the online Battery University

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries

In terms of longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell. Battery experts believe that this threshold eliminates all voltage-related stresses; going lower may not gain further benefits but induce other symptoms. (See BU-808b: What causes Li-ion to die?) Table 4 summarizes the capacity as a function of charge levels. (All values are estimated; Energy Cells with higher voltage thresholds may deviate.)

Charging to 3.92 v/cell gives 60-65% capacity
Only a full cycle provides the specified energy of a battery. With a modern Energy Cell, this is 250Wh/kg, but the cycle life will be compromised. All being linear, the life-prolonging mid-range of 85-25 percent reduces the energy to 60 percent and this equates to moderating the specific energy density from 250Wh/kg to 150Wh/kg.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 13, 2017 11:23 am

Of course in the midst of making a number of purchases, I caught on on a product I had almost forgotten about... but had previously planned to purchase some form of one when I finally built an ebike. What I'm referring to, is a a suspension seat post. The bike I am converting has only front suspension, and I plan to be doing a substantial amount of my riding on city streets, with more potholes than I want to think about right now.

About a year ago when I first started looking at these, I remember essentially having boiled down my options to 2 different brands (each with a couple of options of their own). It was with the Cane Creek Thudbuster ST or LT... or if I wanted to spend considerably more, the Cirrus Cycles BodyFloat... which seemed liek ti had potential, but seemed way too expensive, and possibly also too bouncy.

Well, now that I've done some additional reading... there seems to be a 3rd choice that not only has been getting some really good reviews... but is also the cheapest. The Suntour SP12 NCX. Seems like it's priced a little higher on this side of the pond in general... I've been seeing in the $90-$120 range, and actually was having trouble finding the smaller diameter (which is what I need) 27.2mm. All the US vendors I found either didn't have stock of that size, or were charging way more than they should be (I'm not sure if I even found one in the US that had stock). Almost accidentally, I found it available, with every possible size and color options, not to mention with a free cover, on aliexpresss... for $76.57 shipped to the US. Will likely take 3-4 weeks to arrive (tho I order from aliexpress quite a bit, and have had things come surprisingly fast, and some take quite a while... usually faster than you expect). https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Suntour ... 13295.html

My only concern is the added weight. Given this post doesn't seem like it will weigh too much... it's a combination of aluminum and steel (where the extra strength is needed)... but in my case.. it would be replacing a super light carbon fiber seat post. And, as I mentioned before, my building does not have an elevator, and I have to carry the bike up and down a flight of stairs (well down and then up) each time I use it... so trying to keep the weight as low as I can to make it an easy task (the commercial ebike I got a really good deal on has only been used 2 times in a few months since it's totally not worth lugging the 100+ lb beast up and down the stairs for most occasions that an ebike would usually be convenient... ie. going say 5 blocks away to pick up food... easier to walk than carry that thing both ways. But hoping this bike does not have that issue. This does seem like it could be a very useful upgrade when it comes to comfort... and at such a low price and such high reviews... I think I might pull the trigger, extra weight or not.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Oct 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Cyclone TW doesnt sell 4B 110BCD gears, I want an extra crank gear, so it must bolt onto the freewheel which then is any of the 5 hole gears, thinking 24T or 30T. Rear is a standard 11T-34T rear, both the fronts are the exact same size, 44T.

When I climbed a few hills from a stand still at the base of a steep hill using 44T and 11-34T it was slow but it was steady and climbed.

Here are the options for regearing
1) change the gear on the crank for the motor
2) change the gear on the crank for the rear gears
3) change both
4) change the sprocket on the motor

For both front crank gears. If I went 48-50T for speed and a 24-30T for torque monster then would that be too slow for hill climbing?



24T for 5 holes freewheel 12USD
mid 48T BCD 104mm 15USD

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Oct 14, 2017 10:30 am

Probgrock

On suspension seatposts, I’ve had good luck with the zoom seatposts from AliExpress. Shipped about $30. They offer your size. I replaced a brooks saddle with the springs that squeaked like crazy and bounced me around to much. If I’m in my zone riding I get a flashback feeling of when I mountain biked back in the mid to late 90’s, wow 20 years ago. Those who remember the era know the excitement mtn biking and snowboarding, it was almost illegal, now look. Can ebikes go a similar route to acceptance?
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ebike11 » Oct 14, 2017 1:41 pm

Is anyone using a single speed freewheel in the rear to their cyclone? If so, did you need any tensioner for the chain or were you able to get it on tight by adding/removing chain links? Is it better to keep using the rear dereilleur even if you only have a single speed sprocket and bmx chain ?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Oct 14, 2017 2:51 pm

I am not using a tensioner at all on the motor to crank chain.

For the crank to rear wheel, I am using a rear derailleur as a tensioner which means I am rocking a single cog out of the 7 or 8 I have. Just too lazy to put a new wire in

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 15, 2017 5:58 pm

Skaiwerd, I appreciate the recommendation, tho the Suntour seatpost I'm looking at definitely seems to be superior. I've seen quite the number of $20-30 seatposts like that one, they seem to just bounce around... the Suntour appears to do more (or less, when it comes to bouncing). I've actually also seen a number of videos comparing the Suntour to almost exactly the same seatposts as the zoom, the Suntour is always recommended quite a bit more. Considering the bike currently has a pretty nice, super lightweight Easton EC70 seatpost... if I'm gonna replace it, it's gotta be worth it. The Suntour is 3-4 time the weight, tho still not that bad, and if the reviews are accurate, should be a pretty solid suspension seat.

ebike11, I'm definitely interested in that as well. In about a week should have this build complete or very close to, and currently the bike is a single speed mountain bike... definitely hoping it'll work without a derailleur, don;t currently have one.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ebike11 » Oct 15, 2017 6:34 pm

progrock wrote:Skaiwerd, I appreciate the recommendation, tho the Suntour seatpost I'm looking at definitely seems to be superior. I've seen quite the number of $20-30 seatposts like that one, they seem to just bounce around... the Suntour appears to do more (or less, when it comes to bouncing). I've actually also seen a number of videos comparing the Suntour to almost exactly the same seatposts as the zoom, the Suntour is always recommended quite a bit more. Considering the bike currently has a pretty nice, super lightweight Easton EC70 seatpost... if I'm gonna replace it, it's gotta be worth it. The Suntour is 3-4 time the weight, tho still not that bad, and if the reviews are accurate, should be a pretty solid suspension seat.

ebike11, I'm definitely interested in that as well. In about a week should have this build complete or very close to, and currently the bike is a single speed mountain bike... definitely hoping it'll work without a derailleur, don;t currently have one.
Ok let us know what you do. It would be nice to get rid of the whole rear derailleur and have a clean look with single speed bmx chain..but it would have to be fairly tight without a derailleur, so im wondering the side effects of doing that

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Oct 16, 2017 4:13 am

Can I use my Cyclone controller for a direct drive motor?

The reason I ask is because one Sunwin controller is 63V and the second is a 84V, while the Cyclone can do 36V on up to 84V, and I'd really like to use 36V on my direct drive, plus the throttle with its display gives me an idea of how much distance I got left in the juice packets.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 16, 2017 7:00 am

ebike11, thanks for bringing my attention to this... my original plan was to just try it out and see how things (of course trying somewhat to be careful).... but now I'm considering the potential issues here with a single speed having so much power, definitely a big difference over just pedaling. I'm thinking I might at least get a pair of chain tugs before I start testing with nothing at all. Never needed chain tugs on any of my fixed gears... but a single speed with a 3000w mid drive motor... probably not a bad idea. I'm hoping they will do the trick... I don't think I want to run a chain tensioner unless I absolutely have to.

Anyone else have experience with this?.... ideally experience with a cyclone or any mid drive with a single speed with track ends/dropouts?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 16, 2017 10:57 am

Of course I have Chris King fun bolts on my rear wheel... gotta see if I can find chain tugs that will work with them... or at least ones I can modify to work with them. Anyone familiar with these?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by fabieville » Oct 16, 2017 7:54 pm

What is the outer diameter of the freewheel adapter that is made to work with the 20mm shaft?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Oct 17, 2017 8:33 pm

So I opened up the motor today to take a look since I'm having trouble getting this thing running on a powervelocity sensorless*. First, it really stinks so do this with caution. I checked the gearbox and reassembled before proceeding to the motor section. The gearbox seemed to be doing just fine.

When inside I was shocked to find weld spatter on the inside of the case. I was able to knock some of it off and remove just by pressing a finger. This is not the kind of thing you want inside a motor with tiny clearances and thinly insulated coils that spins at high speed.

Wasn't sure what to think about the rotor assy. Mine was all rusty. Overall my impression of the motor is that this thing is made for total bottom dollar and it is very low quality!

*all 3 forward phase combos are rough and none has more power than the other. I guess I have some shorted magnet wire??!
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Oct 17, 2017 11:11 pm

flat tire - Very interesting what you have found, I will have to crack open mine one day and take a peek inside. For right now though its running good, just on one speed at the moment. I am still have very mixed feelings about my cyclone, it climbs, from a stand still, slowly up steep hills real well, nothing a direct drive could do or atleast nothing my 3kw motor can do on sunwin controller.

I know one thing for a fact though, whether its the noise from a trapezoidal waveform controller or the gears purring from a geared motor, dogs bark and children always look and people can hear me coming up from behind them. I am sold on Sinewave controllers and Direct Drive motors!

Be super sweet to have a direct drive mid drive setup!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by ebike11 » Oct 18, 2017 12:06 am

Did you take pics of the inside?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Oct 18, 2017 12:32 am

markz wrote:I know one thing for a fact though, whether its the noise from a trapezoidal waveform controller or the gears purring from a geared motor,
Don't forget the chain primary off of a very small and unsmooth 13t or 14t drive sprocket. That's probably the main source of unusual noise.

I notice that my BBS02 only makes identifiable noise when it's singing at the upper end of its RPM range. Even then, it's pretty quiet; but when I'm pedaling along at 90 RPM with PAS, it's silent.

I think it's only a matter of time before we have direct drive bottom bracket motors to choose from, but they won't be backwards compatible with normal bike frames.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by progrock » Oct 18, 2017 11:17 am

So, waiting for a Phil Wood bottom bracket tool to get delivered so I can move on with this build... got bored... opened up my Stock 40A Bluetooth controller. Been trying to find photos/descriptions of other people with the same/similar controller who have opened them to compare... while I would have expected them to all be very close to the same (referring to stock controllers for the Cyclone 3000w specifically). Anyway, it's probably no surprise that it's a 12 FET controller... but somewhat of a surprise, the MOSFETs at least appear to be better than I was expecting. But, I don't know what brands are good/shit... etc. BUT if the data sheet is accurate (and I'm not missing something) these aren't bad. They are Si-Tech S10H16R (http://www.si-tech-semi.com/data/DownLo ... 10H16R.pdf) ... 150V 104A according to the spec sheet.

So are these the standard ones everyone with stock controllers have?... are they indeed not half bad, I see a lot of people talking about IRFB4115 FETs, which these appear to be pretty comparable, even with some higher claimed specs. Of course for all I know Si Tech could be a crapppy manufacturer thats claiming values that are not true on their data sheet.... but I would think they would have to be pretty close to accurate (given, even if the specs are good, they could still be badly made, etc).

I was originally considering trying out the shunt mod by either adding some solder to the shunt, or by soldering in an additional wire across... but at least for the time being, I don't think I'll be doing that. Are there other mods that are highly recommended?... I've seen people flipping the board over and adding a wire/conductor across the main traces on the board... that seems like a mod that if done right, theoretically shouldn't have much of a down side.

Also, I notice there's what I assume is a thermal compound on the plate the FETs are attached to. Is it common for people to add/replace this with some higher performing thermal compound?

And damn it... just my luck... I already have 2 sets of JST SM 2.5 connectors, ranging from 2-5 pin, when I need a 6 pin if I'm going to add a Cycle Analyst connector to this controller.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Oct 18, 2017 3:34 pm

Unless you can program the controller you won't be able to adjust the phase amp ratio or toggle soft start so keep that in mind when working with it.

Yes the mosfets are ok. Probably the strong point of the controller. The worst component is the caps, they are all garbage quality but this probably won't cause you any issues for the time being.

Someone also asked if the thing will run a hubmotor, sure it will.
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