Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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aspencreek   10 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 15 2018 3:04pm

Good point on the tariffs. My luck would be that if I buy now, by springtime the tariffs would be gone and Luna will be selling the newer X version for hundreds less. Oh well, guess I'll stick with the regular dirt bikes and my Rambo bike until spring and see how things look then.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Oct 15 2018 3:50pm

Offroader wrote:
Oct 15 2018 2:39pm
If this is the case and they remove the tariffs, the bike would come back down in price on future shipments. Unlikely they are going to raise the price higher than it is as they just raised it and Luna has an agreement with china as the only distributor in USA so I doubt they can just raise the prices as high as they want.
I find it very hard to believe that they(LUNA) will reduce the price of the Sur-Ron for any reason(Tariffs or not). Manufacturers are raising prices on items not even being affected by the tariffs just to gain more GP(gross profit) why would they go backwards? The only reason would be lack of sales and I doubt that will happen

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Oct 15 2018 4:01pm

aspencreek wrote:
Oct 15 2018 1:59pm
What do you guys think about picking up one of these from Luna now versus waiting until spring? Not a whole lot of riding time left here in Boise, Idaho area, but I'd hate to see the price go up again in the spring. Of course, maybe by then they'll have the version with the X controller. That seems like the better option, but if they bump the price up a bunch not sure if it's worth it or not. thanks
Well what are your alternative costs? What if you put 4.000 $ into an index fund? Or put the money to work elsewhere over the next 6 months? Are you even sure you will be getting a sur ron in the spring? Maybe your needs has changed by then? Maybe you need a baby stroller and a crib by then? Also there might be a wider selection of used sur rons by then. Maybe you find a used one with some upgrades done to it?

Yeah the price might rise. Maybe a little or even a lot. What you gotta ask yourself is what is the alternative costs for you. Could you make money spending those 4K elsewhere over the next 6 months? And if so, what could you realistically make? More then you think the price will hike?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Oct 15 2018 4:20pm

macribs wrote:
Oct 15 2018 4:01pm
Are you even sure you will be getting a sur ron in the spring? Maybe your needs has changed by then? Maybe you need a baby stroller and a crib by then?

Or just get the sur ron now, and build the crib and stroller from plywood if the need arises.

Tbh I would still wait for model X, will hold it's value better and they seem to be iterating quite fast on all aspects.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 15 2018 5:54pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Oct 15 2018 3:50pm
Offroader wrote:
Oct 15 2018 2:39pm
If this is the case and they remove the tariffs, the bike would come back down in price on future shipments. Unlikely they are going to raise the price higher than it is as they just raised it and Luna has an agreement with china as the only distributor in USA so I doubt they can just raise the prices as high as they want.
I find it very hard to believe that they(LUNA) will reduce the price of the Sur-Ron for any reason(Tariffs or not). Manufacturers are raising prices on items not even being affected by the tariffs just to gain more GP(gross profit) why would they go backwards? The only reason would be lack of sales and I doubt that will happen
Since Luna is exclusive dealer I doubt they have control of the prices because why would Sur-Ron allow that in the deal. Maybe they do but I just can't see them getting an exclusive deal and also allow them to charge what they want, as Sur-Ron would know they would just raise the prices to maximize Lunas profit and not Sur-Rons. Luna would sell less bikes but make a higher profit as they have a monopoly and screw over Sur-Ron.

The other thing is Luna thinks they are selling the bikes dirt cheap and even say that they are making a small profit from them. This makes me believe that they do not have control of how much they can charge and will have to lower the prices after the tariffs are gone. There is no doubt that those guys would be charging a lot more for the bike if they could.

Either way if Luna doesn't lower the prices then we all send E-mails complaining to Sur-Ron that they are price gouging us. Sur-Ron does reply to its E-mails, just a bit slow though.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 15 2018 9:04pm

Offroader wrote:
Oct 15 2018 5:54pm
There is no doubt that those guys would be charging a lot more for the bike if they could.
I don't agree. I think its at an impulse buy price. A nice toy price. It will fit on a credit card price. Raise it much and it is in a completely different category.

Even raising it just from $3499 to $3,890 it sounds much more expensive in my mind. Over $4k and all of the sudden it sounds like a much more serious purchase.

Besides, if it costs drastically more than what it costs on other continents, more people are likely not going to buy it because they know they are being ripped off.

They also want as many users as possible - the more people riding, the more people will notice and want one. In the end, its really all about the user-base and adoption. Word of mouth is immensely valuable. So for adoption, the lower the price the better.

Its counter-intuitive but I actually make more money when I sell my app for $0.99 instead of $2.99.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 15 2018 9:30pm

aspencreek wrote:
Oct 15 2018 1:59pm
What do you guys think about picking up one of these from Luna now versus waiting until spring? Not a whole lot of riding time left here in Boise, Idaho area, but I'd hate to see the price go up again in the spring. Of course, maybe by then they'll have the version with the X controller. That seems like the better option, but if they bump the price up a bunch not sure if it's worth it or not. thanks
There's lots of riding in Boise during the winter. Pleasant Valley south of town can do for a Saturday ride during the winter. Go to Reynolds Creek or Murphy. You can have snow on the ground in Boise and these places will have dust. Hell, even the Little Gem Cycle park in Emmett is rideable, except after a storm. But yah, Boise foot hills and north are questionable in October and damn near un-predictable past November. Definitely not riding Idaho City or Blacks Creek between December and April. Said all that to say this, the SurRon is not going to get cheaper. Buy it now, and you will have some good winter riding ahead of you.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 15 2018 9:50pm

Rix wrote:
Oct 15 2018 9:30pm
aspencreek wrote:
Oct 15 2018 1:59pm
What do you guys think about picking up one of these from Luna now versus waiting until spring? Not a whole lot of riding time left here in Boise, Idaho area, but I'd hate to see the price go up again in the spring. Of course, maybe by then they'll have the version with the X controller. That seems like the better option, but if they bump the price up a bunch not sure if it's worth it or not. thanks
There's lots of riding in Boise during the winter. Pleasant Valley south of town can do for a Saturday ride during the winter. Go to Reynolds Creek or Murphy. You can have snow on the ground in Boise and these places will have dust. Hell, even the Little Gem Cycle park in Emmett is rideable, except after a storm. But yah, Boise foot hills and north are questionable in October and damn near un-predictable past November. Definitely not riding Idaho City or Blacks Creek between December and April. Said all that to say this, the SurRon is not going to get cheaper. Buy it now, and you will have some good winter riding ahead of you.
Yeah, it really depends on a particular season too. Sometimes no appreciable snow will accumulate around Boise the entire season.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Oct 16 2018 1:19pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 15 2018 9:04pm
Offroader wrote:
Oct 15 2018 5:54pm
There is no doubt that those guys would be charging a lot more for the bike if they could.
I don't agree. I think its at an impulse buy price. A nice toy price. It will fit on a credit card price. Raise it much and it is in a completely different category.

Even raising it just from $3499 to $3,890 it sounds much more expensive in my mind. Over $4k and all of the sudden it sounds like a much more serious purchase.

Besides, if it costs drastically more than what it costs on other continents, more people are likely not going to buy it because they know they are being ripped off.

They also want as many users as possible - the more people riding, the more people will notice and want one. In the end, its really all about the user-base and adoption. Word of mouth is immensely valuable. So for adoption, the lower the price the better.

Its counter-intuitive but I actually make more money when I sell my app for $0.99 instead of $2.99.
these bikes are selling in China for around $2900 USD, dealers get them maybe $2000 ish per bike?!
Shipping cost is around $200 USD per bike from China to Luna. $4100 (w/ shipping cost) is what Luna is charging us.
I see Luna strategy is wanting to sell less bikes with very high profit rather than spending time/effort on logistic, CS, warranty,... of selling many bikes. They might be also making a scene the price is only go up in future and get people buy it now. But once there is other dealer, price will drop. Some more passion companies might want to put just like $500-$1000 profit and happy with it. That will be more fair and good for us as end user.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 16 2018 5:34pm

Thanks for the responses everyone. After reading through a bunch of this thread it does seem like the X version is a good upgrade and I think I'll hold off for a few months and see if they start getting those in before I buy. I do like the idea of the re-gen w/ engine braking effect. I'm used to that from my dirt bikes and it sounds like it helps with the range a little bit. Also sounds like the x version has better throttle response and is quieter. Might as well wait for the better version and if they raise prices again then I'll shop around for something else.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 16 2018 5:45pm

BCTECH wrote:
Oct 16 2018 1:19pm
these bikes are selling in China for around $2900 USD, dealers get them maybe $2000 ish per bike?!
Shipping cost is around $200 USD per bike from China to Luna. $4100 (w/ shipping cost) is what Luna is charging us.
I see Luna strategy is wanting to sell less bikes with very high profit rather than spending time/effort on logistic, CS, warranty,... of selling many bikes. They might be also making a scene the price is only go up in future and get people buy it now. But once there is other dealer, price will drop. Some more passion companies might want to put just like $500-$1000 profit and happy with it. That will be more fair and good for us as end user.
I don’t see the point of including the shipping cost when that money does not go to Luna. You also neglected to account for the 25% tariff.

So if they get them for $2,000, the tariff would be $500, say shipping is $200, that puts the cost at $2,700. That would put it right around $1000 difference. Although, that $1000 is not all profit mind you. They have substantial overhead (rent, power, insurance, operating costs) and have to pay a staff (payroll gets real expensive real quick). They also have to provide support when needed. Take that all into account, and I bet they are only profiting ~$500 on average and up to ~$700 in the best case scenario.

aspencreek wrote:
Oct 16 2018 5:34pm
Thanks for the responses everyone. After reading through a bunch of this thread it does seem like the X version is a good upgrade and I think I'll hold off for a few months and see if they start getting those in before I buy. I do like the idea of the re-gen w/ engine braking effect. I'm used to that from my dirt bikes and it sounds like it helps with the range a little bit. Also sounds like the x version has better throttle response and is quieter. Might as well wait for the better version and if they raise prices again then I'll shop around for something else.
If you want to come up to Crouch you can take mine out for a spin. It has the X Controller. I agree - the regen engine breaking effect is a huge game changer for me. You are also correct about better range, throttle response and being quieter.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 16 2018 6:13pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 16 2018 5:45pm
If you want to come up to Crouch you can take mine out for a spin. It has the X Controller. I agree - the regen engine breaking effect is a huge game changer for me. You are also correct about better range, throttle response and being quieter.
That'd be amazing! Only an hour drive or so to pop up to Crouch. Couldn't say no to that to check one out in person. I'll PM you, thanks.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Oct 17 2018 3:01am

Offroader wrote:
Oct 15 2018 10:57am
So I'm confused with this, the Max-E does work unmodified with the Sur-Ron? I thought the max-e doesn't work well with mid-drives. Why has no one else here used the Max-E with the Sur-Ron?

Allex if you can find out more about how the motor handles the 14KW and overheating with the Max-E. It would be interesting to see if it overheats easily as a hub motor would overheat very quickly with that kind of power.
It works but I dont think it works optimal. You get less efficiency resulting in a hot motor. On why no one modified it yet is because the surron is a turn key vehicle, ppl mostly ride it - not tune it. Right now I have no desire to tune mine for instance, I am very happy with how it is right now with stock sine wave controller. I would Prioritize a belt drive right now for a more silent ride.
You see, if you want more power/speed, you need to have more cells, and this adds weight and I dont want it to be heavier. Also you need another charger and clean up the mess around controller area. Stock bike is great and nice to look at so kinda pity to destroy the whole concept.
I will probably modify it later on but in this case I will just re-cell original pack(to have more power with same speed) and put in ASI/Kelly or the new Adaptto... but my range will be a lot less then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWwyYEt ... e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjwIMvvmfk

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 17 2018 8:22am

The other limitation is the battery. You can't pull a lot more than stock without tripping the BMS or overheating the cells. If you want a real high power setup, you need a stronger battery.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 17 2018 6:41pm

If this bike continues to sell well there will be so many people with the bike that I am sure we will have controllers that will look and fit exactly into the stock mounting location. I'm sure adaptto will make a controller just for the Sur-Ron and tuned to work perfectly with the motor.

There will also be plenty of battery builds maximizing the amount of cells. There will be many plans on videos/pictures on how to do it yourself.

The limits will come down to how well the Sur-Ron mid drive motor cools itself. This is where real electric dirtbikes use oil cooling I believe to cool the motor down. The KTM electric dirt bike uses oil cooling for the motor.

When people start pushing ridiculous battery sizes and using field weakening, this is almost definitely going to overheat the motor.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 18 2018 8:21am

The 24 FET Powervelocity controller looks like it might barely fit if the flanges are cut off the case. I'm tempted...

For sure the motor will need cooling if you push it too hard. Since it's an inrunner, just having a fan blowing on the outside will help a lot. For serious overpowering, it may be possible to make it water cooled.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 18 2018 10:41am

fechter wrote:
Oct 18 2018 8:21am
The 24 FET Powervelocity controller looks like it might barely fit if the flanges are cut off the case. I'm tempted...

For sure the motor will need cooling if you push it too hard. Since it's an inrunner, just having a fan blowing on the outside will help a lot. For serious overpowering, it may be possible to make it water cooled.
We need to find out just how much power the sur-ron can handle before it needs cooling. If it is true that with 6KW it doens't overheat, then it can probably handle easily 10KW without overheating.

I push only 8KW on my bike now and that is plenty enough power for me, and if the Sur-Ron at 6KW pulls at low speed like a 14KW hub motor bike like Alex mentioned, 8-10KW will be plenty enough for me where I would not even bother with higher power that may need cooling.

55MPH is also the top speed of my hub motored bike and at that speed with such a light weight bike I wouldn't really want to go much faster than that.

SO for the majority of us I think 8KW-10KW would be ideal. Really 10KW if you are 200lbs+ and 8KW if you weigh much less.

There is a chance that since i'm only pushing 8KW on my hub motored bike, that the Sur-Ron at 6KW with the newer controller would be close to the power of my bike , which I find the 8KW ideal. The thing is I really push the field weakening on my Max-E which gives me that high 55MPH top speed with my smaller 17" rear wheel. I doubt the Sur-Ron sine wave controller maximizes the full 6KW with the field weakening.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Oct 18 2018 12:22pm

Offroader wrote:
Oct 18 2018 10:41am
fechter wrote:
Oct 18 2018 8:21am
The 24 FET Powervelocity controller looks like it might barely fit if the flanges are cut off the case. I'm tempted...

For sure the motor will need cooling if you push it too hard. Since it's an inrunner, just having a fan blowing on the outside will help a lot. For serious overpowering, it may be possible to make it water cooled.
We need to find out just how much power the sur-ron can handle before it needs cooling. If it is true that with 6KW it doens't overheat, then it can probably handle easily 10KW without overheating.

I push only 8KW on my bike now and that is plenty enough power for me, and if the Sur-Ron at 6KW pulls at low speed like a 14KW hub motor bike like Alex mentioned, 8-10KW will be plenty enough for me where I would not even bother with higher power that may need cooling.

55MPH is also the top speed of my hub motored bike and at that speed with such a light weight bike I wouldn't really want to go much faster than that.

SO for the majority of us I think 8KW-10KW would be ideal. Really 10KW if you are 200lbs+ and 8KW if you weigh much less.

There is a chance that since i'm only pushing 8KW on my hub motored bike, that the Sur-Ron at 6KW with the newer controller would be close to the power of my bike , which I find the 8KW ideal. The thing is I really push the field weakening on my Max-E which gives me that high 55MPH top speed with my smaller 17" rear wheel. I doubt the Sur-Ron sine wave controller maximizes the full 6KW with the field weakening.
Sounds like a good upgrade, since stock it is probably just under 4kW, 60V, 65A peak.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Oct 19 2018 5:14am

fechter wrote:
Oct 18 2018 8:21am
For sure the motor will need cooling if you push it too hard. Since it's an inrunner, just having a fan blowing on the outside will help a lot. For serious overpowering, it may be possible to make it water cooled.
I wonder that nobody has yet disassembled the motor, measuring kV, resistance, max torque etc (to put it in the motor comparisons spreadsheet).
This would help alot for choosing a controller and battery voltage for everyone who likes to push it to the limits.

From what i know the first motor was based on an HPM3000 from golden motor, and later it got revised and improved.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 19 2018 10:01am

aspencreek wrote:
Oct 16 2018 6:13pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 16 2018 5:45pm
If you want to come up to Crouch you can take mine out for a spin. It has the X Controller. I agree - the regen engine breaking effect is a huge game changer for me. You are also correct about better range, throttle response and being quieter.
That'd be amazing! Only an hour drive or so to pop up to Crouch. Couldn't say no to that to check one out in person. I'll PM you, thanks.
What a deal, and crouch also has some great riding.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 19 2018 12:37pm

Rix wrote:
Oct 19 2018 10:01am
aspencreek wrote:
Oct 16 2018 6:13pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 16 2018 5:45pm
If you want to come up to Crouch you can take mine out for a spin. It has the X Controller. I agree - the regen engine breaking effect is a huge game changer for me. You are also correct about better range, throttle response and being quieter.
That'd be amazing! Only an hour drive or so to pop up to Crouch. Couldn't say no to that to check one out in person. I'll PM you, thanks.
What a deal, and crouch also has some great riding.
That is true. Went up there yesterday afternoon and met up with 3DTOPO to have a look at his Sur Ron and do some trail riding. I took along my dirt bike and we did a 14 mile or so loop around the mountains. Not much singletrack but lots of fun ATV width trails and little used forest service roads / jeep trails to ride. After following him on the Sur Ron and also trying it out in a couple different areas out there, I have to say I am definitely impressed with it! He had the stock sprocket back on it for the ride, but even with that the bike moves out plenty quick and was able to do some fairly steep hill climbs without any issues. Climbs that I was doing down in 2nd gear on my bike to give some idea of the grade. I thought before the ride that I might be having to take it slow, but that electric bike moves about as quick as I'd want to go on twisty mountain trails/roads with lots of hair pin turns. I tried it out in both Sport and EP mode, and amazingly even in EP mode it got up to 22mph no problem going up a steep jeep trail. And then with the x-controller it went down that same road and the regen braking helped slow it just enough that I barely had to use the brakes. Only weird thing for me was when I did hit the brakes I kept dabbing the foot lever back brake that doesn't exist. :) Oh, and I guess the near silent riding was also weird but in an awesome way! Came around a corner at one point when I was in the lead on my bike and I spooked up some deer that were on the trail. They were maybe 25 feet away when they took off. If I'd been on the Sur Ron I probably would have plowed right into them! Anyway, big thanks to him for letting me try the bike and showing me around the place. Had a great time and I'll for sure be buying one if not more of these in the near future.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » Oct 19 2018 12:59pm

Its an ajp pr5 250cc?
What country do you live? I thougth usa, but i do not knew that they sell there this portuguese dirt bike...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 19 2018 1:52pm

Antenor wrote:
Oct 19 2018 12:59pm
Its an ajp pr5 250cc?
What country do you live? I thougth usa, but i do not knew that they sell there this portuguese dirt bike...
Close. It's actually an AJP PR3 240. And yeah, I'm in Idaho in the USA. They started selling these a couple years ago over here, although so far the presence is quite small so you don't see them around much yet. I probably have the only pr3 in Idaho as I had to ship mine in from back East.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » Oct 19 2018 2:39pm

I have the older model ajp pr4 200cc.
But i am from Portugal...esay acess :)

In terms of power how thus the surron compare to the ajp?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » Oct 19 2018 2:41pm

Your pr3 is smaller than mine...do you have the stock wheels or bigger?

Know i have a notion of surron size...is really small

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