Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike
- Thread starter Allex
- Start date
Offroader said:
Other than cost and fit, since the current limits are programmable, I don't see any issues. A 8000 should behave exactly like a 4000 if it has the same current limits dialed in. You can just set the phase amps a lot higher with an 8000.
Agreed, We will have to figure out if we really need more phase amps than the 4000 can offer. I would think a mid drive may be too powerful off the line and you wouldn't want too many phase amps, this is unlike a direct drive hub motor where you don't have any gearing like a mid drive.
If there is no differences or losses with the 8000 over the 4000, then we may want to figure out the phase amp limits on both controllers and see if we will ever want to increase them over what the 4000 offers. The 8000 version seems to cost $200 more so its not something I would want to pay if I will never use the extra power.
With the bMS
They mentioned on the link to the 4000 controller that the regen needs to be limited at higher charges.
Can fully utilize regen (Sur Ron BMS will cut at full charge, however ERT has found a solution for this by limiting regen power at full charge and gradually increasing then restoring full regen power at battery % reaches 95%.
What I think is happening is people are using regen at full charge and the battery BMS is hitting the high voltage cut off. This is very easy to happen at full charge when you spike the voltage during regen as it can easily climb to 4.2 volts to 4.3 volts for example.
The issue here is most of us on our self built hub motor bikes usually charge to 90%, like 4.10 volts. Since we can't control the charge voltage with the sur ron we are charging to almost 4.2 volts, so the voltage cut-off is easily hit at that voltage.
You can also use a regen switch and not use regen until you ride the bike a short distance to bring down the voltage.
If there is no differences or losses with the 8000 over the 4000, then we may want to figure out the phase amp limits on both controllers and see if we will ever want to increase them over what the 4000 offers. The 8000 version seems to cost $200 more so its not something I would want to pay if I will never use the extra power.
With the bMS
Tommm said:
They mentioned on the link to the 4000 controller that the regen needs to be limited at higher charges.
Can fully utilize regen (Sur Ron BMS will cut at full charge, however ERT has found a solution for this by limiting regen power at full charge and gradually increasing then restoring full regen power at battery % reaches 95%.
What I think is happening is people are using regen at full charge and the battery BMS is hitting the high voltage cut off. This is very easy to happen at full charge when you spike the voltage during regen as it can easily climb to 4.2 volts to 4.3 volts for example.
The issue here is most of us on our self built hub motor bikes usually charge to 90%, like 4.10 volts. Since we can't control the charge voltage with the sur ron we are charging to almost 4.2 volts, so the voltage cut-off is easily hit at that voltage.
You can also use a regen switch and not use regen until you ride the bike a short distance to bring down the voltage.
evolutiongts
10 kW
It depends, I’m running the BAC4000. With 20S 11.5KW cap, I’m getting ~330A peak phase and ~175A peak battery. This is plenty of power for most people, very torquey and plenty of top end pull. Motor barely gets warm.
Stock battery can really only sustain 85A battery and 175A peak phase, the BAC2000 (not released yet) would be more appropriate for those sticking with the stock battery. BAC4000 would give you room for growth. If you are looking to squeeze every bit of power, No doubt the BAC8000 would give you higher peak numbers but this is only a 6.8kg motor, no guarantee it will survive higher power output.
Stock battery can really only sustain 85A battery and 175A peak phase, the BAC2000 (not released yet) would be more appropriate for those sticking with the stock battery. BAC4000 would give you room for growth. If you are looking to squeeze every bit of power, No doubt the BAC8000 would give you higher peak numbers but this is only a 6.8kg motor, no guarantee it will survive higher power output.
evolutiongts ,
May I ask you with the BAC 4000 and 330A phase amps. Are you able to easily wheelie the bike without pulling the front of the bike up?
What about at 20 - 25MPH,, is that enough power to lift the front of the bike up to wheelie without pulling the wheel up?
With my Max-E and cromotor, my bike will easily wheelie, even at 25-30 MPH I believe I can wheelie the bike at those high speeds.
The stock Sur-Run, you can forget about wheeling the bike unless you are skilled enough to pull the front wheel up, at speed I think it may be impossible.
May I ask you with the BAC 4000 and 330A phase amps. Are you able to easily wheelie the bike without pulling the front of the bike up?
What about at 20 - 25MPH,, is that enough power to lift the front of the bike up to wheelie without pulling the wheel up?
With my Max-E and cromotor, my bike will easily wheelie, even at 25-30 MPH I believe I can wheelie the bike at those high speeds.
The stock Sur-Run, you can forget about wheeling the bike unless you are skilled enough to pull the front wheel up, at speed I think it may be impossible.
Offroader said:
Part of that is from the slow ramp up of the stock controller. Something that ramps up faster would make wheelies easier.
With the stock trapezoidal controller, if you hold the brake, give it full throttle, then release the brake, it does a wheelie very easily. Somehow this bypasses the ramp up when you release the brake.
With an ASI, you can adjust the ramp up speed.
3DTOPO
1 kW
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Honda, finally, at last, has entered the EV game:
https://electrek.co/2019/03/22/honda-electric-crf450-bike-scooter/
https://electrek.co/2019/03/22/honda-electric-crf450-bike-scooter/
Allex
100 MW
Allex said:
Created a sale thread for those who are interested in this Kit, you can find more info and a manual:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=99248
.
Had enough break in the rain to test ride a little more. I haven't run the pack to cutoff but I'm pretty sure I can get about 40 miles of hard riding and maybe 50 miles in EP mode with the booster pack. Pack assembly with bracket weighed in at 27 lbs. The booster pack probably needs a few cycles for the cells to get broken in and full capacity.
Since the packs in parallel reduce the current in each pack, there is less voltage sag on acceleration, which should let me get more out of the pack before hitting reduced speed mode. No noticeable heating on the batteries after a long ride. I think the sun was heating the cases more than the cells.
Also added a Topeak Defender front fender. This works well and is super easy to install.
can someone help me here. is the sur ron mx more like a mx bike or more like a mountain bike?
i was all set on buying an alta redshift, then they went out of business.
then i stumbled upon this bike, the sur ron.
but to me it looks more like a mountain bike, with squishy brakes, fork and tires? since i used to downhill MTB the rate at which i used to go through brakepads, tires and forks killed that sport for me, it was more expensive than owning a mx bike. and i hated pedaling.
also this sur ron looks tiny. how big is it? since im 6ft3
i was all set on buying an alta redshift, then they went out of business.
then i stumbled upon this bike, the sur ron.
but to me it looks more like a mountain bike, with squishy brakes, fork and tires? since i used to downhill MTB the rate at which i used to go through brakepads, tires and forks killed that sport for me, it was more expensive than owning a mx bike. and i hated pedaling.
also this sur ron looks tiny. how big is it? since im 6ft3
3DTOPO
1 kW
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Jasonjm said:
I would say it's about half MX / half mountain bike.
The built-in breaks do leave something to be desired - but easy enough to upgrade. I recently installed Shimano Saint breaks and the increased braking power over the stock breaks are awesome.
I was lucky to upgrade to the X Controller with regenerative brakes. Coming down long steep descents I barely have to use my brakes at all - they should last a very long time. Apparently, the X Controllers sold today don't have regen braking, but you can buy the ASI 4000 tuned for the Sur Ron (see the previous page). It has variable regen braking (unlike my controller) - so should save on brake pads even more.
I have 1,200 miles on mine and my rear tire is looking about ready for a new one. Has about half the tread left on it.
Seems like one of the most popular upgrades is putting a name brand fork on it. I've been happy enough with the stock one that I plan to wear it out before upgrading...
how much do all these upgrades add up to?
1) better contoller with brake regen
2) better heavier duty front fork (springs not air)
3) i assume heavier wider tires? especially in rear that thing looks too skiny.
4) and for single track trail riding a top speed of 50mph is a waste, seems like lower gear for more juice would be smarter.
5) riser bar for taller person over 6ft maybe?
anything else obvious im missing?
1) better contoller with brake regen
2) better heavier duty front fork (springs not air)
3) i assume heavier wider tires? especially in rear that thing looks too skiny.
4) and for single track trail riding a top speed of 50mph is a waste, seems like lower gear for more juice would be smarter.
5) riser bar for taller person over 6ft maybe?
anything else obvious im missing?
3DTOPO
1 kW
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Jasonjm said:
~$800 for the ASI 4000
Jasonjm said:
$800-$1500
Jasonjm said:
Only slightly fatter tires are possible without a custom swingarm. I went with Bridgestone M403s. Pretty close to as fat as you can get without major changes.
$100 for a pair.
Jasonjm said:
I tried a lower gear and went back to the stock. It kind of messed with accelerating in the 15-20mph range and I had ample torque with the stock sprocket to crawl up the steepest terrain around (45º+).
But, think its like $50 for a bigger sprocket.
Jasonjm said:
I went with 3" riser bar: $50.
Jasonjm said:
There are pretty much endless upgrades. What is ideal for one person might not be for others.
aspencreek
10 mW
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3DTOPO said:
You should check out this video and also some of the others on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPg7kp4BaMk
This guy is about the same height as you and he has a bunch of riding and other videos showing the Sur Ron in action and walkarounds, size comparisons, etc. I'm quite a bit shorter than you and I find the bike to be pretty little, although for me the seat to peg ratio is fine and doesn't feel cramped. If you know how big a TTR125L or KLX140L is, then you'll have a good idea of the size.
Also, Luna is now showing the X version bike with Regen again. That could save some money if you don't need to swap the controller out to get regen. They also show different forks on the X bikes - now with DNM Volcano instead of the Killah RST's. I'm not familiar with the DNM so not sure if that is an improvement over my Killah's.
Grantmac
10 kW
Would be nice to be able to buy a Sur-Ron minus controller battery and suspension. Go straight for the upgrades.
The suspension is more than fine on the bike. You really have to be a professional if you really need a better suspension then what comes on the bike. Compared to any hub motored bike this is worlds better because you don't have the hub motor killing the rear suspension.
The bike really needs a controller upgrade above everything and second a battery capacity upgrade.
The brakes are very good also, even without regen.
Unless you are going to bring the bike into competition, or are an extreme dirt biker, I really don't see any reason to upgrade the brakes or suspension. The controller, yes, because the bike is lacking in power.
Its hard for me to justify spending money on better suspension components because this bike handles everything and does it amazingly.
The bike really needs a controller upgrade above everything and second a battery capacity upgrade.
The brakes are very good also, even without regen.
Unless you are going to bring the bike into competition, or are an extreme dirt biker, I really don't see any reason to upgrade the brakes or suspension. The controller, yes, because the bike is lacking in power.
Its hard for me to justify spending money on better suspension components because this bike handles everything and does it amazingly.
3DTOPO
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Offroader said:
Must be because of the conditions I ride in (big steep mountain in my backyard - 5,000+ vertical foot climb to the top from here), but without regen, I found the stock brakes wholly inadequate. With regen they worked OK - got me to over 1,000 miles, but I still found them wanting. The braking power with the Shimano Saints are night and day. I think being able to stop on a dime when you need to is more important than anything else.
For my needs, I have found the X Controller to have ample power for anything I can throw at it. Have not found any road or trail that I cannot climb with it yet.
Offroader said:
I completely agree with you about the suspension.
Jasonjm said:
I am 6'2 and have no problem with the size. I am lanky and crouched down on it, but I've never been bummed with the size of it.
3DTOPO
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fechter said:
I had the same exact fender. After about a 100 miles (of rough riding) the aluminum bracket broke from fatigue from vibrating up and down. I need to make a bracket out of steel - or just get a different fender.
If you primarily drive on paved roads, I suppose that you'll get quite a bit more miles on it than I did.
stonezone
100 W
Offroader said:
well i have my phase set around 500 with battery amps limited to about 250 (18s32ah of 12c multistars) and it's night and day from stock obviously but very managable with proper throttle tuning. I've gone higher on battery amps testing with 20s 65-130c nanotechs (my phase on the 8000 is limited to 840) and it quickly becomes unridable. I'd say for an experienced rider, 250/500-600 is pushing it as it can get away from you quickly, and for the average rider 150/400 would be perfect, and to answer your question, Hell yes it would lift that front tire without leaning back...
evolutiongts
10 kW
Range would likely decrease if you are mashing on the throttle, however if you are just cruising and taking it easy. I think it should be comparable to the stock controller in terms of range, the ASI is more efficent running than most controllers, and tends to just sip power while crusing. You also have working regen braking that will also extend range.
so what is it like riding this thing on single track trails vs a 250cc?
obviously the 250cc has more power, more top end, and is an all around bigger bike, with a much larger rear tire.
but what about manouverability? is the sur ron at 100lbs much easier to manouver on trail? like for ruts, downhill sections etc?
what about grip? is the sur ron harder or easier for steep climbs vs a 250cc?
obviously the 250cc has more power, more top end, and is an all around bigger bike, with a much larger rear tire.
but what about manouverability? is the sur ron at 100lbs much easier to manouver on trail? like for ruts, downhill sections etc?
what about grip? is the sur ron harder or easier for steep climbs vs a 250cc?
Jonathan1981
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stonezone said:
have you shared details about your pack build anywhere? I'm in research phase for new pack build, trying to soak up as much info as possible..
3DTOPO
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Jasonjm said:
I haven't ridden a 250, but I am sure at less than half the weight the sur-ron is much more nimble - way less likely to brake an ankle too.
Well, that's also what someone whom I let take the Sur-Ron out who normally rides a 250cc said. In fact, the first thing he said coming back from his first ride on it was (with a big smile): "I'm selling my 250!".
Jasonjm said:
I don't know how to answer that, but, I have totally kept up with the 250s I have run with.
