The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

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bjorsa   10 mW

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The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by bjorsa » May 16 2019 7:01am

I'm more of a cyclist than an e-biker. That means I value the excercise, things like q-factor, cadence and a generally cycley feeling. Before buying all these motors I would have appreciated the info I'm about to give here and that's why I'm posting this.


SHARED ISSUES:

*The whole concept is just great: keep your fave bike, add a motor and when time has passed it by you simply remove that old motor and install the flashy new one you want. Your friend with an integrated motor is stuck. And with very limited modifying options. And poor from buying expensive. And worse for the environment too.

For commuting I'd normally recommend more reliable and cheaper hub motors BUT if you seek a smallish motor that won't turn your back wheel into a 100kg megawatt monster all while still running happily at speeds over 40 kmph, then keep reading.

*The chainline is about the same on both: in no way ideal but perfectly manageable.

*Q-factor is also the same: seriously bad and tilted to the right side. This shift can be managed by ordering cranks with right side q of 0 and left q around 14-18 mm (when you measure do it with the stock cranks fully mounted because the square tapers are not precision made and may trick you by letting one crank mount higher than the other). Q will be horrible at well over 21cm (68mm bb) but I find I can live with it.

*Stock cranks are of the cheap China kind but work alright while not unreasonably heavy. Neither solves the q-factor issues. (Interestingly enough if you happen to have a Bafang right side and a TS left side crank you're kind of good, even though you'll have just a bit of shift to the right still going on it's still much better than going all Bafang or Tongsheng both sides.)

*Both are rather quiet and look innocuous too. Individual units vary - my BBS02 is ever so slightly quieter than any of my TSDZ2's. Both are at least as quiet (probably quieter) as any pre-2019 Bosch unit and quieter than 2014 Yamaha. Brose got them beat though.

*None of them rust.

*Both are offered with 5-6V light cables and both work well with any ebike lights. For TS it is more or less standard, though some old displays lack support for it. The cables are always flimsy. The china lights offered as bundled with the kits are ok. For weight-weeneing and/or a more refined light beam that's also legal in Germany, get something like a Busch+Müller EYC E or similar. You will need to do some simple soldering. (Weight-weeneing is mandatory stuff. Or you're not snobby. Unless of course you went the pimp route.)

*Both takes some time to install, especially if you got the Bafang with gear & brake sensors. If you're somewwhat handy it's not a complicated process although it can be daunting to remove squeaks and vibrations should you get them.

*Neither come with proper instructions or support; if you're new to this you should be prepared to do some forum lurking.

*If you mount your motor swung up against the downtube both models still manage water drain but know that they are going to collect a ton of mud and stuff up on the outer casing. But who in their right mind would prefer to have the motor hanging like a big turd just in front of the rear wheel, wholly unprotected?

*Use a stable bike frame that can handle the extra weight and speed! MTB's will do good and suspension really pairs well with any motor. For fast commuting I use a titanium touring frame. But I'd stay away from any noodly race bike frame.


TSDZ2:

*Be aware that without thorough maintenance the motor has a limited lifespan due to some weak mechanical spots. If you push hard you're likely to break the torque sensor with it's little knobs and grooves made from cheap metal. I did this and then resorted to never ever pushing a pedal with more than about 60 kg of force.

Trouble is that even if you adhere to this careful strategy sooner or later the central main shaft in the bottom bracket will break. It is made of sub-par metal that fatigues over time with movement and for some reason the engineers decided to put three little grooves (cut-outs) in it, allowing for circlips to hold the shaft in place. The leftmost groove is placed outside of the left bearing. If you push hard or stand on the pedals most of the force put stress, movement and material fatigue in exactly this spot. One day your left pedal simply drops off without any warning.

Sometimes you can get away with a new torque sensor unit about USD 80-90, but often the bearings brake and damages the whole casing leaving the whole TSDZ2 unit unuseable. My unit's never lasted more than a year and some of almost daily but careful use. I found it a surprisingly difficult job to replace the torque sensor which may or may not be due to incomptence but I think I should mention it. However, if you're handy you can service your motor by swapping in new bearings and torque unit, say once a year, before anything breaks. Then the motor should last for a long time.

*The torque control system is almost as good as the EU brands. Smooth, responsive and pleasant. The riding experience is on another level compared to the BBS; less fiddling around with buttons and it feels more bionic and natural. One criticism would be that maximum torque sensing is rather low. That is to say, if you push somewhat hard on the pedals you're maxed out already - no point standing up to try and get more out of the motor.

*No need for brake sensors since if you stop pedaling the motor also stops. Gear sensing would have been nice for even snappier gear changes without motor torque applied, but it's not offered so just fahgettaboutit.

*Stock cadence is about a slow as the Yamaha Powerdrive (2014), which is to say the motor drops power around 70 rpm and just gives up after 80. Good for lazy sunday excursions but inadequate for sporty cycling. (If you want to push a high tempo you need high cadences not only to maximise performance, but also to avoid putting too much strain on your knees - the TSDZ2's low cadence is how my knees went from okay to kinda bad. As a point of reference professional cyclists do 90-120 rpm.)

*I hear the flexible open source firmware made by some smart dudes hanging around this place is fabulous, but at the time of writing this you need the KT-LCD3 display. I'd guess you should go for it since this firmware also solves the cadence issues and allows 52V batteries.

*An easier solution is to buy a 36V motor and simply run it with a 48V battery. I used to open my units and switch either the motor or the controller out but I now know there's no need; just mix! The controllers all take 48V. Note that for a 52V battery, with even better cadence, you need a 52V controller or flash a stock controller yourself. 52V is sweet for an avid cyclist: the motor becomes really peppy and responsive even on higher cadences.

*It's perfectly doable to add an outer chainring for a front double. The larger chainwheel can only be used with the chain on the smaller half of the cassette else chainline whacks out, but this is okay since that's where top speeds are to be found. (I made my own tight chainring setup and can post pictures for any interested parties.) However, since upping the motor rpm with more voltage I find the larger chainring is unnecessary. Top speed with 11-32 cassette and stock chainring is around 40kmph unmodified. With a 48V battery & 36V motor combo you can add 1/3 to that and be out of the woods. Or workplace.

*The mounting system would have you rotating the motor down and back using metal thingies clamping on to your chainstays just behind the bottom bracket. This will chafe the frame. I would recommend opting out and instead take good care to fasten the unit using only the bottom bracket screw nut thingie. It's not of high quality so add construction glue if needed. If you rotate the motor up towards the downtube it helps to add some support there (e.g. piece of wood locked with PL-400 construction glue) to secure the position, save your bike frame and allow for any gear or brake cables to pass in between the motor and frame (under the bottom bracket).

*Swapping from a Shimano Ultegra bottom bracket bearings to the bearings in TSDZ2 is like trading in your Ortlieb panniers for paper bags from the supermarket. You can expect more flexing and some mild cracking sensations. Changing pedaling direction reliably produces some not-so-smooth hickups that doesn't really affect performance but hurts your inner perfectionist's soul. The motor adds little resistance but the feeling isn't very nice. Also if you push too hard you'll break the torque sensor.

*Both stock pedal cranks have about 10 mm q. Not ideal for the right side, to say the least.

*If your frame has wide and beefy chainstays allowing for tyres over 35 mm you can expect the TSDZ2 gear housing to push up against your right chainstay unless you put one of them plastic bb spacers in on the right side before tightening everything up.

*Top speed of max 45 kmph can be set on both VLCD5 and XH18 without any extra cable or such. To go faster you need to set the wheel size to smaller and trick the system, sacrificing real speed and distance displayed.


BBS02:

*Good cadence even for active cycling. Instead, if you drop cadence too much the motor turns itself off. Like, way before any other motor drops its power. You can get caught unassisted if for example there was no time to gear down when you stopped for red.

*Absolutely horrendous factory controller programming. Also be aware the recommended settings you can find online and implement are often tailored for an ebiker's mindset with an emphasis on constant throttle use and lazy legs. The way these work is by letting the throttle (or PAS) sort of control your speed - not only actual motor power. That's right, at a certain speed the motor power is tailored off. Sounds insane on any other vehicle? That's because it is. (I'll post what I think is good BBS02 controller settings for MAMIL's and cycling minded nerds in a separate post following this one.)

*My 2019 unit from PSWPower still has the infamous "throttle can only do on or off" issue. "Stop delay value" may be the culprit since it may cause trouble if programmed to a value below 10, so try that first. I don't use a throttle so I need only a snobby attitude.

*It is absolutely worth it to get brake and gear sensors for convenient cycling. Most of them are of low quality, unreliable and messy to install; but still worthwhile. Also, get the version with headlight connectors if you're going to use it for more than offroad duties because it's a godsend to always have at least decent lights on hand even if you forgot your high lumen set at home.

*One can live with the PAS for commuting but it is in no way comparable to a torque sensing system. The incentive for working harder is almost gone and the whole experience is clonky and less responsive. Power comes with a fair amount of delay because without a torque sensor the bike gets uncomfortably jerky otherwise, plus the simple system has still to protect itself from blowing all the circuits if you feed lots of current without moving. With PAS at least it's not totally in a scooter-motorcycle domain.
On my tourer I eventually got rid of the throttle altogether. Maybe wouldn't want to do that on my MTB. BTW, a working throttle can be easily modded to stay in any position so that it can be used instead of the PAS without keeping a finger on it. Not as safe but allows very immediate control.

*Mounting is secure and allows the motor to be pushed up against the downtube for better ground clearance.

*Cranks can be tough to mount securely on this motor so be thorough. I have no facts to back this up but it seems to me Bafang cut low profile JIS which means cranks risk bottoming out. Maybe the spindles are manufactured to a sloppy standard overall because they have a bit of a bad reputation for messing up even high quality cranks.

*The bottom bracket bearings both flex and crack a little less than TSDZ2's but don't expect them to perform like real cycling bb's of good quality. Cycling with the motor off doesn't add too much resistance, but I wouldn't describe it as rewarding.

*Both stock pedal cranks have almost zero q. Good for the right side. I'd say you need to swap at least the left one out but this depends on wether you care about cycling with both pedals shifted to the right. If you don't then at least have the decency not to mention any of this to your physiotherapist friend at dinner.

*Display sw102 (Eggrider for bluetooth programming capability) is super nice with a perfect size if you prefer a more normal looking bike. But note the lack of remote (annoying if you have drop bars, having to reach all the time) and that you can't adjust maximum speed without a reprogramming USB cable. Top speed maximum setting is only 40 kmph. To go faster one must set the wrong wheel diameter size.



Thanks for your attention and please just shoot me down if you found any unacceptably dumb shit.
Last edited by bjorsa on Jul 13 2019 3:42pm, edited 23 times in total.

bjorsa   10 mW

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by bjorsa » May 16 2019 7:02am

To make the throttle and PAS behave like a normal gas pedal, you need to get rid of the Speed Limit weirdness. All the settings I've seen, factory inluded, limits speed as well as current.

Limiting speed prohibits for example riding at higher speeds but still with a small assistance.The motor basically pushes you to a pre-set speed and then stops giving a rat's ass. If you control your assist via PAS you end up with as many speeds as your display offers. In my case 4 (not including "Off") which means I can cycle 13 kmph on "Eco" or 18 kmph on "Tour" and so on. Trying to cycle 15 kmph means doing it with no assist at all. This dissuades pedaling, steers control towards the throttle and makes the ride more motorbikey overall. Except of course no motorbike I've ever driven or even heard of has a throttle with a speed limit on top of the usual varying of petrol flow. I just don't understand the thinking behind it; but of course, it all comes down to preference. (It's just that, needless to say, all the people online who even slightly deviates from my perfect opinions are evil and need to be flamed locked inside their baskets of deplorability. But you already knew that.)

Here are my commuter settings. My sw102 display has settings Off - Eco - Tour - Sport - Turbo. That's why you see clusters in four steps in my settings (clusters because I never bothered to find out where the display correlates the steps). It's explained here.
01.png
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111.png
111.png (30.73 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
Stop Delay is set to 8 here. In fact, any value below 10 may mess with the throttle function, so be warned.

I never have my PAS set to Turbo when I start. So I go with a low Slow-start Mode setting to mitigate the slow starts and response times of the BBS.
As you can see I run my BBS at only 18A. I'm more of a cyclist than an ebiker (I'm too poor to risk anything anyways) which of course means I get to be snobby about it. Like, repeatedly.
PAS power starts at 19% which is good for many inner city situations. Going lower one might as well turn the motor off but I still like that helpful push that never threatens to take over from my legs. Then the setting gradually adds more in bigger and bigger steps that all clearly can be felt. But I can still get a small assist going downwind at 40 kmph, just like my mum would have wanted it.

I bought my BBS from PSWPOWER and they offered a programming cable as an extra. You can find one from many sources or make your own. Do yourself a favour and get one!

The excellent software is found here. Thanks, Penoff!
Last edited by bjorsa on Aug 07 2019 11:36am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by 2old » May 16 2019 11:03am

Good job; interesting report; I ride MTB and eMTB equally about 2X - 3X a week each. My BBS02 is four years old (so the original controller) and used with the same 52V battery. For me, the programming is fine; using a maximum level three (of nine) on rides of 10 - 20 miles with ascents of 1500' - 3000' it seems like the amount of exercise is adequate. Glad I never messed with a "TS".

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Deafcat » May 16 2019 11:55am

What's wrong with a really good integrated solution like Bafang Ultra? I'm a cyclist and a gearhead, and won't really even bother with the "add-on" drives like BBS/TSDZ2, now that I've been riding the G510 based bike for a few months. Holy crap is it robust inside and out, and works extremely well for those of us who like pedaling, and occasionally using throttle for long cruise and higher speeds. I also ride the bike without a battery on the weekends, it's a very good drive system un-powered (is it even a drive system in this case, or an overbuilt bottom bracket? lol)

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by vovalos » May 20 2019 11:22pm

Hi bjorsa. A huge thank you for the detailed comparison. It's my first build, and not a lot of information is available apart from forums and having it all in one place is great. And like you I want an "assist" not a motorcycle, so your take on the comparison was great. I would love to just try them out... but there are no physical stores that sell conversion kits in Toronto, so all my info has to come from online.

From what I gather the key takeaways are:
- BBS is better built and will last much much longer, while being a quieter ride.
- TSDZ is a lighter model, that is cheaper but has a well working torque sensor assist

A few questions:
1. You've extensively commented on reliability, or lack of thereof, for the TSDZ. What's your take on BBS reliability? From other posts it seems it's great... but you just bough a new one, so I assume something did fail?
2. It seems like all the TSDZ come with a 42/46 teeth chainring, while you can get a BBS with 52teeth. You mentioned you've added an additional ring, can you simply replace the existing? is it easy to do? I want to get rid of the front gear shift (mine's rusted in place as I never switch from the 52 teeth) and I can't imaging I would want to go to a smaller ring with assist, when I only use bigger one without...
3. You said you'd post the "proper" BBS settings, but I don't see anything in that post. Did you miss a link? With the proper settings, can you get to a "this feels close to a torque sensor" feeling, or does it still feel like someone's pushing you? Is reprogramming a simple task, I read somewhere you need to buy an additional cable?
4. I know the BBS has a cable for lights (which I can assume can be split to feed both front and rear). Can lights be connected to TSDZ?
5. Did you ever look at a hub motor with a torque sensor? If you have, how do they compare?

Thanks!

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by bjorsa » May 21 2019 3:48am

vovalos wrote:
May 20 2019 11:22pm
1. You've extensively commented on reliability, or lack of thereof, for the TSDZ. What's your take on BBS reliability? From other posts it seems it's great... but you just bough a new one, so I assume something did fail?
2. It seems like all the TSDZ come with a 42/46 teeth chainring, while you can get a BBS with 52teeth. You mentioned you've added an additional ring, can you simply replace the existing? is it easy to do? I want to get rid of the front gear shift (mine's rusted in place as I never switch from the 52 teeth) and I can't imaging I would want to go to a smaller ring with assist, when I only use bigger one without...
3. You said you'd post the "proper" BBS settings, but I don't see anything in that post. Did you miss a link? With the proper settings, can you get to a "this feels close to a torque sensor" feeling, or does it still feel like someone's pushing you? Is reprogramming a simple task, I read somewhere you need to buy an additional cable?
4. I know the BBS has a cable for lights (which I can assume can be split to feed both front and rear). Can lights be connected to TSDZ?
5. Did you ever look at a hub motor with a torque sensor? If you have, how do they compare?

Thanks!
1. Bafang reliability used to be questionable but in recent years has become quite good, at least if one is to trust the nerd forums. Personally I don't know because my unit is not old enough to tell. It certainly feels better built than the TS.

2. You can replace it, but make sure you get one with that distinctive curve to it or your chainline shall suffer. Don't know where you can find it but in google we trust.

3. Exams and stuff. I've posted it now.

4. Yes it's standard now, but some old kits lack display support, so check.

5. Actually, for regular commuting actually a hub motor is better and certainly offers more bang for the buck. But I want to be able to cycle at least 40 kmph along some stretches here and it's tough to find hub motors that can do that unless they're big. DD drives I hear you say, but I also pull a trailer now and then and I don't want a heavy and bulky hub motor with 1500+ watts just so I can go slow uphill with my kid. (Admittedly, I also don't want to part from my Phil Wood hubs and the touring wheels I built with them.)

The other problem is that standalone tourque sensors generally suck. They often measure only one pedal, measure angular motion instead of actual pedal force (meaning if you clip in you're messing it up), measure inexactly, break down, measure too slowly and typically measure a limited force span that you're likely to quickly exceed if you're well trained. Also, I'm bad with electronics and hesitated to DIY a Cycle Analyst CA3 wired to some obscure torque sensor and stuff. The torque sensor PDF file for the interested. used on Stromer seems good.

Read about torque sensors here.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by vovalos » May 22 2019 12:19pm

Thanks for responding bjorsa.
2. What do you mean by "distinctive curve"? I googled, but I don't get anything meaningful.
5. Yea, that's my findings too, but like you I like to go fast ~35kph but with little assist (so ideally I would need a 350-500W motor that can keep up the assist at higher RPMs) and I'm having trouble understanding how to pick them out accordingly (and that's considering I'm a professional engineer... there's just so little technical info that's being posted). Plus I'm finding that the cost ends up being very similar to a mid drive and in some cases even more... so the incentive is gone.
As for combining a cycle analyst with a torque sensor, these guys (www.ebikes.ca/)seem to offer them as kits, so I would assume they would come plug and play, but with a torque sensor I'm about 10-15% more expensive than a BBS02.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by neptronix » May 22 2019 1:22pm

Pretty much all the reasons i won't use either of these, or most mid drives in general.
The Q factor hurt my knees, and i was riding with a BBS02 right before patellafemoral syndrome hit me and destroyed my life for a moment.

I really think the lopsided Q angle on the cranks is to blame but i can never know.
I do know that it was funky to pedal right off the bat and the stock crank arms kept falling off the drive due to questionable machining on the BB axle. And the controller started being intermittent in the first month.

This was in 2014 and i'm sure they've probably fixed a few things but i have not been a fan since. Went back to hubs and never looked back.
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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by jimmyfergus » May 30 2019 8:58am

Thanks for this writeup - very informative!

But it makes me a little down on my TSDZ2 purchase, shortly to be fitted. I knew the blue gear, sprag clutch, and possibly another bearing might need replacing, but I thought that once that was done it might be solid. I'm now particularly worried about the torque sensor breaking. I'm a 200lb guy with strong legs.

It's a shame they don't put decent bearings and other critical components in this motor, plus some heat-sinking to the outer case. It seems like a great little motor let down by component quality. I feel like making it durable and robust wouldn't even have been that expensive in manufacture.

I had been going to do a DD hub and torque BB / Cycle Analyst etc., but this seemed such an easy and light option to get bionic legs.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by markz » May 31 2019 7:03pm

It would add to the stealthiness of the bicycle to have that torque bb pas system, expensive as they are. I like to cheap out so the cheap 8? magnet pas is what I've been thinking of, but then I'd just fake pedal all the time. :oops: :lol:
jimmyfergus wrote:
May 30 2019 8:58am
I had been going to do a DD hub and torque BB / Cycle Analyst etc., but this seemed such an easy and light option to get bionic legs.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by markz » May 31 2019 7:06pm

Another problem with the mid drives are they are not exactly hidable, whereas a direct drive rear hub motor, paired with a sinewave controller and some rear rack bags is great at hiding the motor. Even the Phaserunner, mounted under the seat would not draw any unwanted attention, aside from the not pedaling up a hill :wink:
neptronix wrote:
May 22 2019 1:22pm
Went back to hubs and never looked back.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by cheapcookie » May 31 2019 7:08pm

markz wrote:
May 31 2019 7:06pm
Another problem with the mid drives are they are not exactly hidable, whereas a direct drive rear hub motor, paired with a sinewave controller and some rear rack bags is great at hiding the motor. Even the Phaserunner, mounted under the seat would not draw any unwanted attention, aside from the not pedaling up a hill :wink:
neptronix wrote:
May 22 2019 1:22pm
Went back to hubs and never looked back.
Blasphemy

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by ninjichor » May 31 2019 9:24pm

Thanks for the insight.

I got my fav bike too, and was interested in in a BBS02/BBSHD. Your info on chainline and Q-factor is a concern to me, cause I was considering a 100mm axle to get around chainstay clearance issues. I am imagining a BBSHD with a 42t luna chainring setup with mega offset to get the chainline decent, and just live with the wide Q-factor. But I then worry about how a 100mm axle stays secure on a 73mm BB shell...

I was basically just wanting World Cup legs, but with my current bike, without needing to ride everyday, simply to keep progressing my fitness (which fades in as short as 2-3 days off, IME). Wouldn't mind it, if it were a side effect of having fun, but there's a lot of boring distance in between the fun parts...

Was given info from em3ev about the programming, and your write up explained it well. I wanted the levels to be more about getting economy out of the battery, like being very light on the accelerator/throttle, but they said their programming wasn't like that...

I see that I gotta make a frame around the motor to get quality level that I demand.

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Aquakitty » Jun 01 2019 6:06pm

Hi, thanks for the helpful info. I'm about to build up 3 bikes with TSDZ2's. I went with them because 1) I like the idea of a light weight drive as I am only interested in assist, not an "e-motorbike" and 2) its something new to me as I already have Bafang BBSHD.

Is it worth while to replace the nylon gear with the metal one right away or is it ok to ride a while? I assume when you say the torque sensor fails you aren't talking about the nylon gear.

Also you can only use that one particular LCD for the programming, right? I have perused the Github instructions and have the cables just haven't got the LCD yet.

Final question: is there a consensus on the best way to install the TSDZ2 without needing the clamp? I see you've mentioned some info there, but anything else to know about that? Like should I use glue or maybe loctite on the lockring?
Rans Enduro Sport w/Sturmey-Archer XFRD8, TSDZ2 open source mod 48v
GT Verb Comp f/s TSDZ2 open source 48v
Diadora Ampio bargain f/s TSDZ2 48v
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Hardtail made from random bits I had laying around, ginormous old Marzocchi fork, BBS02

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Bigwheel » Jun 01 2019 7:49pm

I wish TongShen would do an upgrade to the TSDZ2 as it has by far the most potential of the three mid's out the others being the LingBei and BBS02 for use by those that are looking mainly for a heightened cyclist experience rather than a low power moto. In other words those that don't mind putting some spin on the cranks but don't want the whole "magic leg" thing going on.

This mainly has to do with the torque assist function on the TS being as mentioned really close to those on the integrated systems. But after years of motor assist biking including ICE I have grown very fond of having a throttle in the mix, not as a way to preclude pedaling but as a way to enhance PAS that those that haven't ridden with one due to the EU regs being spoon fed as most favorable don't know about or understand which leads for those folks to be rabidly anti throttle....Oh well, their loss and I am proud to be a Class 2 cyclist.

At this time there are very few integrated mid drive systems that have throttle ability two from Bafang in the Ultra and the M600 as well as a few vapor ware ones. For my purposes the Ultra is too big/heavy and I don't need any more than 750w for mtb use I have discovered. The M600 is new and having teething problems, literally, and in typical Bafang fashion is not getting any support from the factory it seems. So until there is an integrated system with a throttle that I feel is better than the TS I will stick with it even though it has multiple foibles most of which I have already come to grips with and fixed and can fix again due to relative ease of getting it apart and back together again or just spring out $350 for a new one once a year and call it the high price of having fun. The motor/controller/brass gear have never gone wrong so I can just get the cheapest one I can find and install them.

I don't do any messing with the software as per the long thread here as I find that I ride pretty much 100% of the time in eco using a 52v controller with the stock display. The display isn't good for much other than speed over ground as the voltage meter doesn't work on the 52v so I put a watt meter into the system to track usage. But pretty much I know from experience that if I have been out for 3 hrs. with my 10ah battery it is going to become a boat anchor soon.

I switched right away to a brass gear and know the right grease and in fact I drill a small hole from below into the housing that I can apply with a needle adapter a shot of fresh grease now and again and when something inevitably goes wrong I clear it out upon disassembly and start out fresh again. I have only had the torque sensor go bad once but the bb bearings only last me about 1000 miles before they are toast.

I use an offset 42t chainring that I adapted to the stock adapter and that solved the chain line issues and with a wolf tooth adapter I use an 11/42 cassette. In order to get as little Q factor as possible I use 170mm straight Bafang cranks on both side and live with the fact that the right side is askew, and in fact never really notice the fact. I use 170mm cranks on all my bikes to keep my saddle position the same and think it funny that people are using 150mm ones to avoid strikes. Pedal strikes are as old as mtb'in itself and years of experience makes for few of those I find although no one is immune.

I have used the bike to climb what I would consider ridiculously steep single track with a concerted effort on both mine and the motors part and drafted road bikers as well as taking my turn in the wind. My latest addition to the system is a 52v 15ah 21700 battery that I share between it and my road bikes. So now I figure I am good for over 4 hrs. and quite frankly that is about all I am good for on anything with a saddle.
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Aquakitty   100 W

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Aquakitty » Jun 01 2019 8:39pm

Bigwheel wrote:
Jun 01 2019 7:49pm
I wish TongShen would do an upgrade to the TSDZ2 as it has by far the most potential of the three mid's out the others being the LingBei and BBS02 for use by those that are looking mainly for a heightened cyclist experience rather than a low power moto. In other words those that don't mind putting some spin on the cranks but don't want the whole "magic leg" thing going on.
Thanks, you answered a lot of my questions though I don't know if you were replying to me haha. So the brass gear is basically a "must have" eh?

150 for MTB seems short, is that really a thing for MTB now? Short cranks make sense for recumbents as less leg movement makes riding easier and you usually spin anyways but I wouldn't want that short for regular mountain biking.

I'd still like more info on if installing without the extra clamp is really doable... I read something about maybe adding some ridges to the lock ring to prevent shifting. Dunno if I should bother trying or not.
Rans Enduro Sport w/Sturmey-Archer XFRD8, TSDZ2 open source mod 48v
GT Verb Comp f/s TSDZ2 open source 48v
Diadora Ampio bargain f/s TSDZ2 48v
2020 Diamant 247 belt drive 1000w 9C 48v
Hardtail made from random bits I had laying around, ginormous old Marzocchi fork, BBS02

Bigwheel   100 W

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Bigwheel » Jun 01 2019 9:55pm

It was a general reply and I didn't really notice your install query but I just use the two tab bb washer which attaches to the motor and let the motor ride up against the down tube, which on my bike is steel so I don't even use a bumper. By doing this I gain a small amount of ground clearance, at least if it hits it only hits on the back side.

This ia a big factor btw in why I envy the integrated motors as the fact the motor hangs below the chainring is kind of a pain in the technical terrain I ride in in respect to log overs, rocks and such. I deal with it by erring towards the side of caution because I am never in much of a hurry. One time I smacked it pretty good going up onto a root wad and about 5 seconds later lost all power and it was at the beginning of a ride....I waited from my riding buddy who was in front to come back and we talked options but when I got on to go it worked and continued to do so to this day.

But in retrospect when I first set it up I used the back hold down which worked on my frame but when I switched to the brass gear after about 50 miles, it just began to make a slight rumbling noise which when I took it off it has a small chunk missing from one of the vanes, I had thought more about the dynamics and decided to just set in the forward position. I do keep an eye on the big lock ring though as I find it can loosen even if you tighten the snot out of it.

As far as the brass gear goes because my nylon one failed it seemed like the next best option. It was purported to make more noise but I find using Lucas Red and Snotty grease that it isn't really a factor, the motor is not totally quiet but not at all obtrusive either. I have three eBikes and the only one that is silent is my Grin AnyAxle front hub bike. My 9c front hub bike makes a noise loud enough to turn heads on the bike path but that is not a bad thing I have found since my bell broke.

If TongShen would put a hollow splined interface BB that was made of good steel it would kill two of my complaints at once. Square taper cranks are ok but not as good as splined IMNSHO. It is kind of funny though that all my bikes have sq. taper cranks however. The TS and I use Schlumpf drives on my road bikes. Having used them for years I am used to keeping up with them but every once in awhile one comes loose and galls, probably like 4 over the last 40 yrs.. Big thing is that these days there are way more crank options for that standard.

The back half of the bottom of the casing could be sloped also which in my situation would make a huge difference. It is just dead space anyway. I don't see any way around the gear reduction on the right side but they should offer an offset ring as stock because just about every install I have done of a TS could use it. I don't see how anyone can put two chainrings on one and get any type of chainline although they make adapters for that.

Aquakitty   100 W

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Aquakitty » Jun 02 2019 11:58am

Bigwheel wrote:
Jun 01 2019 9:55pm
It was a general reply and I didn't really notice your install query but I just use the two tab bb washer which attaches to the motor and let the motor ride up against the down tube, which on my bike is steel so I don't even use a bumper. By doing this I gain a small amount of ground clearance, at least if it hits it only hits on the back side.
Yea if I could go back in time I think I would have gone with integrated options as well but too late for me now I will just have to be careful on the rocks and roots. I'm more concerned about my spouse who likes to break things.

So I will install them forward against the downtube with some kind of bumper material. I'm thinking after reading all this I should have bought a couple spare motors. :lol:

Thanks for the info very helpful :thumb:
Rans Enduro Sport w/Sturmey-Archer XFRD8, TSDZ2 open source mod 48v
GT Verb Comp f/s TSDZ2 open source 48v
Diadora Ampio bargain f/s TSDZ2 48v
2020 Diamant 247 belt drive 1000w 9C 48v
Hardtail made from random bits I had laying around, ginormous old Marzocchi fork, BBS02

toro1978   1 mW

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by toro1978 » Jun 16 2019 5:11am

*My 2019 unit from PSWPower still has the infamous "throttle can only do on or off" issue. No amount of programming seems to fix it.
I have a 2017 BBS01 and the throttle works gradually. Ironically I can't enjoy it because I live in Germany so "throttle verboten". Duh.

csbike   100 mW

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by csbike » Jun 20 2019 2:55am

hi all
I just discovered this thread and the reliability issues of TSDZ2 worry me a bit.
like jimmyfergus, I knew about blue gear and other things, but I had understood problems were repairable. Also, Tongsheng claimed they updated their motor when I emailed them last April. Can anyone confirm this?

Biggsy   10 mW

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by Biggsy » Aug 22 2019 2:25am

Awesome post!

Really good info. Just to second that the frame mounting bolt is a really bad idea. I snapped my aluminium cyclo-cross frame on the second ride. I put it down the the flex in the frame when getting out of the saddle (rack mount battery) and climbing 20km mountains in the Pyrenees. In hindsight though, I am now sure it was caused by stress at the mounting plate on TSDZ2.

jpl83   1 µW

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Re: The snobby cyclist's noob guide to TSDZ2 & BBS02

Post by jpl83 » Aug 22 2019 4:10am

Untill now, I have broken Nothing on my Tsdz which is mounted on a trike. But it warms up, far more than my old Q100 for the same climbs at the same speed

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