My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 15 2020 2:58pm

I've got about 5 of the cheap Chinese non-BT BMS in batteries at the moment, max draw is 30A. Some are on their second year, others are about 10 months. As I also normally only charge to 90%, I have to manually check the cells for balance so I leave the BMS harness exposed to facilitate not only reading each cell with a MM, but applying a manual charge to the cell as well. I'll also charge to full every couple of months, so you either get used to adjusting the cut off voltage of the chargers, or use two different ones. That's where I'm hopeful that a BT BMS will make it more convenient to monitor the cells and correct the balance manually if so required. We're planning to buy about 1200 cells soon and get some more BMS at the same time, not a lot of info at the moment that may make it easier to find decent BMS at a reasonable price, kind of learn as you go.
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Sep 15 2020 3:21pm

tsellers wrote:
Sep 15 2020 2:58pm
I've got about 5 of the cheap Chinese non-BT BMS in batteries at the moment, max draw is 30A. Some are on their second year, others are about 10 months. As I also normally only charge to 90%, I have to manually check the cells for balance so I leave the BMS harness exposed to facilitate not only reading each cell with a MM, but applying a manual charge to the cell as well. I'll also charge to full every couple of months, so you either get used to adjusting the cut off voltage of the chargers, or use two different ones. That's where I'm hopeful that a BT BMS will make it more convenient to monitor the cells and correct the balance manually if so required. We're planning to buy about 1200 cells soon and get some more BMS at the same time, not a lot of info at the moment that may make it easier to find decent BMS at a reasonable price, kind of learn as you go.
yep, these cheap BMS work. some of them are interesting and you can even find a spec for the mosfets and balancer chip - unfortunately this is not normal. but always too big for Reention Max - Ant BMS for example. but this Ant BMS seems to have a high defective rate. 30A BMS normally also takes peaks up to 50A so it's suitable for most motors/batteries.

but hey, you really take care of your battery...wow...!!! I am impressed.

wow, but 1200 cells !!! you have big plans !!!
of course choosing the right BMS it depends where you wanna put in the cells, battery type, current etc.

but in the end you are absolutely right : "to find decent BMS at a reasonable price" = that's the point and also the problem...

I wanted the features of Neptune 15 and a BMS that fits the Reention battery and of course as cheap as possible. mmmhhhh... after a while I gave up and just ordered the Neptune :)

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 15 2020 4:04pm

wow, but 1200 cells !!! you have big plans !!!
Should have mentioned, most not for eBike builds. I'll grab a few for personal use on our bikes (we bought about 5 empty battery cases with our last Frey order), (half the cells are 18650 and half 21700), most are going into power banks for radio repeaters and base stations.
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Sep 15 2020 11:55pm

tsellers wrote:
Sep 15 2020 4:04pm
wow, but 1200 cells !!! you have big plans !!!
Should have mentioned, most not for eBike builds. I'll grab a few for personal use on our bikes (we bought about 5 empty battery cases with our last Frey order), (half the cells are 18650 and half 21700), most are going into power banks for radio repeaters and base stations.
aahhh… I understand. I like those bigger battery projects. I don't know why but there is nothing more satisfying than the first use of a battery you built on your own - strange :D

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Sep 16 2020 12:03am

anyways. I made a mistake several posts before. I thought there is no 160mm to 220mm brake adapter for 220mm Magura MDR rotors.
finally I found one (FORMULA FD40289-10) :
Formula_160_220mm.JPG
Formula_160_220mm.JPG (28.05 KiB) Viewed 358 times
So even for Frey CC it is possible to use 220mm front rotors. of course it is not approved by Rockshox and no original Magura adapter and perhaps overkill but it is possible. and of course it is possible to use 220mm rotors for rear brake (coming from 160mm).
Formula_FreyAM1000.JPG
Formula_FreyAM1000.JPG (196.11 KiB) Viewed 358 times

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 16 2020 2:50am

barbarossa wrote:
Sep 15 2020 11:55pm
tsellers wrote:
Sep 15 2020 4:04pm
wow, but 1200 cells !!! you have big plans !!!
Should have mentioned, most not for eBike builds. I'll grab a few for personal use on our bikes (we bought about 5 empty battery cases with our last Frey order), (half the cells are 18650 and half 21700), most are going into power banks for radio repeaters and base stations.
aahhh… I understand. I like those bigger battery projects. I don't know why but there is nothing more satisfying than the first use of a battery you built on your own - strange :D
Alchemy

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 16 2020 3:00am

barbarossa wrote:
Sep 15 2020 3:21pm
tsellers wrote:
Sep 15 2020 2:58pm
We're planning to buy about 1200 cells soon and get some more BMS at the same time,
wow, but 1200 cells !!! you have big plans !!!
Psst. I want to let y'all in on a secret. Be cool.

You can get bigger cells than that, that have a whole lot more energy in them. Then you don't need so many.

Thank me later.
___________
Finish Reconstruction.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by HughF » Sep 16 2020 3:33am

tsellers wrote:
Aug 30 2020 12:37pm
Unfortunately, this is something we should all live in fear of.

Not because Frey makes a bad bike, but because as my professional welder friend pointed out, all aluminum frames that experience torque tensional stress will crack given enough time. That time of course depends on the composition of the alloy. Frey gives the spec for their frames as 6061 aluminum, which is common. Why? Because the stronger alloys such as 7075 and 2014 are almost impossible to weld. Given that the tensional yield strength of the other alternative, 7005 aluminum, is only 5.5% stronger than 6061, and it appears the break happened beside the weld and not in the weld, it really has me questioning if the fracture comes down to the tube shape. A quick Google search seems to indicate that round tubes are stronger than square or rectangular tubes.There is one post on a forum for builders of aircraft frames that suggest square tubes are most likely to fail at junctions rather than flats.

Given the above, I've decided that the best preventative maintenance I can do to prolong this part of my bike frame is go on a diet.
Aluminium MTB frames all crack eventually... It's just the nature of the beast.
Genesis iOiD Alfine8 Hard tail MTB, 36v TSDZ2, 13s battery, SW102 display
Raleigh reynolds road frame from the 80's, TSDZ2, SW102 display, 1x10 drivetrain, gravel tyres

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 16 2020 3:43am

HughF wrote:
Sep 16 2020 3:33am
Aluminium MTB frames all crack eventually... It's just the nature of the beast.
Sure. But the oldest one I've had since new is about 30 years old now, and the oldest one I ride is older than that. But they are traditional diamond frames with no monkey business.

Optimized structure goes a long way. And mechanical suspension goes a long way against optimizing the structure.
___________
Finish Reconstruction.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by HughF » Sep 16 2020 4:07am

Balmorhea wrote:
Sep 16 2020 3:43am
HughF wrote:
Sep 16 2020 3:33am
Aluminium MTB frames all crack eventually... It's just the nature of the beast.
Sure. But the oldest one I've had since new is about 30 years old now, and the oldest one I ride is older than that. But they are traditional diamond frames with no monkey business.

Optimized structure goes a long way. And mechanical suspension goes a long way against optimizing the structure.
And the post-weld heat treat which is vital if you don't want to end up with failure in the HAZ. There is a reason why a lot of small time frame builders stick with steel (be it gas pipe or something from reynolds/tange), and that's because you don't need a heat treatment oven.

*tig welder by trade, specialising in aluminium, think I'm suitably qualified
Genesis iOiD Alfine8 Hard tail MTB, 36v TSDZ2, 13s battery, SW102 display
Raleigh reynolds road frame from the 80's, TSDZ2, SW102 display, 1x10 drivetrain, gravel tyres

coolminty   1 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by coolminty » Sep 16 2020 4:17am

barbarossa wrote:
Sep 16 2020 12:03am
anyways. I made a mistake several posts before. I thought there is no 160mm to 220mm brake adapter for 220mm Magura MDR rotors.
finally I found one (FORMULA FD40289-10) :
Formula_160_220mm.JPG

So even for Frey CC it is possible to use 220mm front rotors. of course it is not approved by Rockshox and no original Magura adapter and perhaps overkill but it is possible. and of course it is possible to use 220mm rotors for rear brake (coming from 160mm).
Formula_FreyAM1000.JPG
May I ask which stand that is? Looks like a sturdy one. I definitely have bike envy for your 2 Freys.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Sep 16 2020 5:49am

coolminty wrote:
Sep 16 2020 4:17am
barbarossa wrote:
Sep 16 2020 12:03am
anyways. I made a mistake several posts before. I thought there is no 160mm to 220mm brake adapter for 220mm Magura MDR rotors.
finally I found one (FORMULA FD40289-10) :
Formula_160_220mm.JPG

So even for Frey CC it is possible to use 220mm front rotors. of course it is not approved by Rockshox and no original Magura adapter and perhaps overkill but it is possible. and of course it is possible to use 220mm rotors for rear brake (coming from 160mm).
Formula_FreyAM1000.JPG
May I ask which stand that is? Looks like a sturdy one. I definitely have bike envy for your 2 Freys.
it is a CUBE universal bicycle stand - slightly modified to match the Frey swing arm and I removed the upper part.
https://www.cube.eu/equipment/komponent ... sal-black/

last year my Frey AM1000 was stolen and I could get back it by using GPS.
this summer my Frey EX was stolen. I prepared the Frey EX for shipping the motor to Innotrace and so I had to remove the GPS. shit happens. anyways I ordered a new (black) Frey EX at Frey/Ivy and will move in november... :D

so even the thieves seem to have some bike envy :(

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by coolminty » Sep 16 2020 6:41am

barbarossa wrote:
Sep 16 2020 5:49am
it is a CUBE universal bicycle stand - slightly modified to match the Frey swing arm and I removed the upper part.
https://www.cube.eu/equipment/komponent ... sal-black/

last year my Frey AM1000 was stolen and I could get back it by using GPS.
this summer my Frey EX was stolen. I prepared the Frey EX for shipping the motor to Innotrace and so I had to remove the GPS. shit happens. anyways I ordered a new (black) Frey EX at Frey/Ivy and will move in november... :D

so even the thieves seem to have some bike envy :(
Cheers

:( that's some lucky thieves.. hopefully you get a second round of luck.

GPS is probably something that should installed by default in these bikes. I just use a thick ABUS Granit 540 but as you know a battery grinder works pretty quickly for these.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Sep 16 2020 6:48am

coolminty wrote:
Sep 16 2020 6:41am
barbarossa wrote:
Sep 16 2020 5:49am
it is a CUBE universal bicycle stand - slightly modified to match the Frey swing arm and I removed the upper part.
https://www.cube.eu/equipment/komponent ... sal-black/

last year my Frey AM1000 was stolen and I could get back it by using GPS.
this summer my Frey EX was stolen. I prepared the Frey EX for shipping the motor to Innotrace and so I had to remove the GPS. shit happens. anyways I ordered a new (black) Frey EX at Frey/Ivy and will move in november... :D

so even the thieves seem to have some bike envy :(
Cheers

:( that's some lucky thieves.. hopefully you get a second round of luck.

GPS is probably something that should installed by default in these bikes. I just use a thick ABUS Granit 540 but as you know a battery grinder works pretty quickly for these.
I also hope to get a second round of luck :)

yep, BOSCH battery grinder takes around one minute to open almost all locks. the thieve of my stolen Frey AM1000 used an abus lock - guy at the bike shop took under 30 seconds to open it.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 16 2020 10:50am

barbarossa wrote:
Sep 15 2020 2:19pm
JohnnyEppelseed wrote:
Sep 15 2020 10:42am

Hi, barbarossa.
I ordered an extra battery case for my AM1000 (theoretically arriving late December) and would like to build my battery beforehand. Can you remember the configuration/orientation of the cells when you did the tear-down of your 48 volt 13s6p battery (LG MJ1 cells). Was the case a Dorado Max?
Recommendation for a BMS? Advice, words of wisdom?
Thanks,
John
Hi John,
Unfortunately I did not take any photos. but yes, it is a Reention Max with 80 cells max - to be honest meanwhile I have three Reention Max batteries, 15S5P , 14S5P and 19S4P :)
6P -> cell groups have to be spread across different cell holder groups (max 16 cells per holder pair). not easy to get good serial connections and many "inner" cell group connections.
Building a 5P battery is much easier, 4P a little harder, 6P the hardest, I think. 5P => you can carefully put it together like a sandwich, each holder pair after the other.

I use Speedict Neptune 15 and Neptune 20 BMS (https://www.speedict.com/). I am happy with these and Neptune 15 fits into Reention Max battery case without modification - tight but it works. Neptune 20 BMS also fits but only if you take away the 4x cell row at the top holder pair.
here an example of Speedict 15 in my Reention max with good old Bafang Ultra Innotrace controller :bolt: really nice android app included :
14S5P_SONY_VTC6_A.JPG
I am convinced, 15s5p seems easier. And who doesn't like a little more giddy-up? I guess it's time to contact Frey and change specs on my order so both of my batteries are 54V.

Am I correct in assuming that the Frey battery will not balance at 80%-90% charge?

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 16 2020 11:09am

I am convinced, 15s5p seems easier. And who doesn't like a little more giddy-up?
Not sure if this will affect your model or not, but worth pointing out just in case. My M600 V2 will not power up if voltage is >58V. If you charge 15s to 90% SoC you'd be at 56.7V, so you should be OK, whereas 100% SoC may present power up problems unless you run it down first.

I didn't realize Frey would custom configure the battery packs, good to know.
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Hardcore » Sep 16 2020 11:20am

Am1000 powers up with 58.8V

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Sep 16 2020 12:08pm

Yep, Frey AM1000 also powers up with 62.5 volts - I think even with original display.
I personally started with my first own built battery 15S5P @ 61.5 volts = 4.1 volts x 15 - after my original 48 volts battery. No problems, worked with v1.3 and v1.5 motor.
but of course not officially supported...

and yes, original BMS might not balance at lower voltages...

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 17 2020 3:12am

download/file.php?mode=view&id=279600

Here are the torque specs for
the rear suspension bolts I
received from Cecilia at Frey.
A – 6 Nm
B – 8 Nm
C – 25+ Nm
D – 25+ Nm
E – 6 Nm
F – 6 Nm
Attachments
AM1000 Rear Suspension Bolts.jpg
AM1000 Rear Suspension Bolts.jpg (172.58 KiB) Viewed 250 times

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brake034   10 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by brake034 » Sep 17 2020 8:38pm

New Frey AM1000 video;
https://youtu.be/aPaBS6Pfmps
FREY lifestyle: Free Ride Enjoy Yourself!

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 18 2020 1:56am

tsellers wrote:
Sep 16 2020 11:09am
I am convinced, 15s5p seems easier. And who doesn't like a little more giddy-up?
Not sure if this will affect your model or not, but worth pointing out just in case. My M600 V2 will not power up if voltage is >58V. If you charge 15s to 90% SoC you'd be at 56.7V, so you should be OK, whereas 100% SoC may present power up problems unless you run it down first.

I didn't realize Frey would custom configure the battery packs, good to know.
I have been informed that the largest battery available from Frey is a 52v17.5ah.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Hardcore » Sep 18 2020 5:47am

brake034 wrote:
Sep 17 2020 8:38pm
New Frey AM1000 video;
https://youtu.be/aPaBS6Pfmps


Last edited by Hardcore on Sep 20 2020 8:24am, edited 1 time in total.

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 18 2020 9:00am

I have been informed that the largest battery available from Frey is a 52v17.5ah
No doubt for the AM1000, etc. I assume that the CC uses the same battery packs as the AM1000? For anyone that is interested, the M600 uses a smaller battery, but it can be used in the CC, as shown here:

Image
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by John-H » Sep 20 2020 5:15pm

Hello everyone. I am first time poster but long time lurker here on the endless sphere.

I didn't want to raise some old thread to ask my question, so I am asking here.

I am in the process of finding a frame for Bafang Ultra M620.

I have found this one for relatively low price:

Image

It looks similar to Frey EX. What do you think about this geometry? Is it already outdated?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by LeftieBiker » Sep 20 2020 5:18pm

More likely the material and build quality are lower. The welds look fairly clean, but they are also pretty small...

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