New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Square   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Square » May 05 2022 7:05am

I have opened the motor and took a look at the controller. First thing I've noticed is a strong burnt plastic smell, and also a strange black mark on the inside of the case (see right arrow of the first pic). Is this worrying, or could this be from normal wear or manufacturing?

Image Image

This is what the bare motor looks like. Not sure what to think of it... Does the color looks off? Resistance between the coils is about 1 ohm, but this could be because of my very low quality multimeter leads.

Image Image

Now for the controller: I was able to program and verify the MCU using an ST-Link, so this part seems to be working. Visually, the controller looks fine, couldn't see any obviously blown part.

But the controller behaves very strangely when I disconnect the bare motor (so that it is only connected to the battery and XH18 display): if I plug in the battery and turn the battery on, I can use the battery's gauge button just fine. I can then turn on the display, see the "Welcome" message on boot and for a fraction of a second, I can see the speed indicator before the display abruptly turns off. When this happens, the battery's gauge button stops working. Is this normal behavior when the bare motor and speed sensor are disconnected from the controller? Or does this definitively means something is wrong with my controller?

I believe one component of the controller got toast, but I still cannot rule out a problem of the motor because of the color and black mark...

Also, I apologize for my bad english. My ebike has been my only mean of transportation for the past few months, while I waiting for my motorcycle licence and exams. This is something that takes forever to get in my country (France). So for the next few weeks, I will have to rely on barely adequate public transport that comes thrice a day to my village...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » May 05 2022 8:00am

Square wrote:
May 05 2022 7:05am
...
Now for the controller: I was able to program and verify the MCU using an ST-Link, so this part seems to be working. Visually, the controller looks fine, couldn't see any obviously blown part.....

I believe one component of the controller got toast, but I still cannot rule out a problem of the motor because of the color and black mark...
..
It looks that your motor is overheated, but it is not clear how much power is gone by demagnetizing.
For the controller, mostly it are one or more FET's which are directly connected to these motorwires.
This could explain the black marks on the cover.
imho you must see also burnmarks on the controllerboard too.
Look for the FET connected with the blue wire in first place

scrolltonowhere   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by scrolltonowhere » May 05 2022 8:38pm

Does anyone use their e-brake levers with v brakes on their Tongsheng? I was thinking of upgrading my cantilever brakes to v brakes but not sure if the levers are suitable for this style of brake.

bergerandfries   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bergerandfries » May 10 2022 10:22am

scrolltonowhere wrote:
May 05 2022 8:38pm
Does anyone use their e-brake levers with v brakes on their Tongsheng? I was thinking of upgrading my cantilever brakes to v brakes but not sure if the levers are suitable for this style of brake.
I use the Minshine Brake Sensor part #MSBK130804 with road brake levers and disc and caliper brakes. It would have no issue with Cantilever or v brakes or any cable actuated brakes.

rcx194   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by rcx194 » May 11 2022 5:02am

Hi all.

My bike developed a fault this morning. I powered up and got the usual "Keep pedals free and wait" message which persisted for quite a while before giving a "Brakes error". I disconnected the battery and tried again a few times but the same happens.

I haven't had the chance to look into this further as I had to get onto the train so that I could get to work. Would you give me the heads up on what I should be checking? Maybe I should start with the brake switch circuit?

I think I'm on version 1.1 and using 860C display.

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » May 13 2022 3:29am

scrolltonowhere wrote:
May 05 2022 8:38pm
Does anyone use their e-brake levers with v brakes on their Tongsheng? I was thinking of upgrading my cantilever brakes to v brakes but not sure if the levers are suitable for this style of brake.
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
Please subscribe to my Youtube home page for Quadcopters, FPV and Bike Rides http://www.youtube.com/jbalatutube
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For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » May 13 2022 3:31am

Hey guys does anyone have a nuvinci hub ? I’m thinking of an n330 ?
Please subscribe to my Youtube home page for Quadcopters, FPV and Bike Rides http://www.youtube.com/jbalatutube
My build log here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55352
For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » May 13 2022 8:58am

scrolltonowhere wrote:
May 05 2022 8:38pm
Does anyone use their e-brake levers with v brakes on their Tongsheng? I was thinking of upgrading my cantilever brakes to v brakes but not sure if the levers are suitable for this style of brake.
Not sure tbh, I've never used the brake levers - always use the add-on magnetic switches glued to my existing brake levers.
jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:29am
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.

rcx194   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by rcx194 » May 13 2022 9:03am

beemac wrote:
May 13 2022 8:58am

jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:29am
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » May 13 2022 9:28am

rcx194 wrote:
May 13 2022 9:03am

I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Good point, i was only really thinking about my use case. If you have a throttle or you're brave (?) enough to rely on a coaster brake only then it's even more important to have that safety cut-out.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 13 2022 10:54am

beemac wrote:
May 13 2022 8:58am
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
I've never stripped a blue gear under braking, always from almost stationary and usually my front wheel wedged against a log or bank which I have failed to get my timing of lifting the front wheel over. In fact I'm not sure how you would under braking.

In some ways I like the small run on in technical conditions, you can give the pedal a small incomplete turn to power you through say a couple of rocks outcrops which you would normally strike your pedals on. Anyway almost every other brand I have ridden has this small delay.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 13 2022 10:58am

jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:31am
Hey guys does anyone have a nuvinci hub ? I’m thinking of an n330 ?
Let us know how you get on with the Nuvinci hub. A question, how are you proposing to get around the 12mm through pin on most modern frames, rather than the bolted 135mm old school hub of the Nuvinci and the problem of punctures ?

ilu   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » May 13 2022 3:31pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
May 13 2022 10:54am
I've never stripped a blue gear under braking, always from almost stationary and usually my front wheel wedged against a log or bank which I have failed to get my timing of lifting the front wheel over. In fact I'm not sure how you would under braking.

In some ways I like the small run on in technical conditions, you can give the pedal a small incomplete turn to power you through say a couple of rocks outcrops which you would normally strike your pedals on. Anyway almost every other brand I have ridden has this small delay.
When I'm riding more technical tracks, I occasionally come into a situation where I need to brake to full stop but at the same moment I'm unable to lift my weight off the pedal I would be pushing down. So I guess in those cases the blue gear could easily strip without the brake sensor.

I also have the sensor only on the rear brake lever and it's fixed to switch slightly before meaningful braking force begins. This enables me to momentarily cut off motor power if I need to suddenly navigate a difficult spot more slowly than usual.

I agree that having a small run on is a hamdy feature in some spots. Although I've needed it much less after changing the cranks from 170mm to 152mm. It makes riding rocky trails so much easier that I wonder why the long cranks are such a default in all commercial emtbs.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Yanis » May 13 2022 3:38pm

rcx194 wrote:
May 13 2022 9:03am
I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
I also do this to power down the motor when changing gears without stopping pedaling. The power off and on of the motor is instantaneous and it feels like using the clutch on a motorbike !
The only downside of this technique is that you have to set up your brakes so that the sensor activates before actual braking happens. The stock brake levers/sensors require a little too much movement of the lever for my taste, but I wasn't able to tweak this.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Chalo » May 14 2022 12:19am

rcx194 wrote:
May 13 2022 9:03am
beemac wrote:
May 13 2022 8:58am
jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:29am
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » May 14 2022 5:40am

Waynemarlow wrote:
May 13 2022 10:58am
jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:31am
Hey guys does anyone have a nuvinci hub ? I’m thinking of an n330 ?
Let us know how you get on with the Nuvinci hub. A question, how are you proposing to get around the 12mm through pin on most modern frames, rather than the bolted 135mm old school hub of the Nuvinci and the problem of punctures ?
It’s going on my 2009 norco so all good. Not sure how it will go on a bike with through axles though??
Please subscribe to my Youtube home page for Quadcopters, FPV and Bike Rides http://www.youtube.com/jbalatutube
My build log here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55352
For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » May 14 2022 5:44am

Chalo wrote:
May 14 2022 12:19am
rcx194 wrote:
May 13 2022 9:03am
beemac wrote:
May 13 2022 8:58am
jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:29am
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must. I agree though it’s a bad habit to brake under power.. all it needs is to be aware and you will eventually stop doing it.
Please subscribe to my Youtube home page for Quadcopters, FPV and Bike Rides http://www.youtube.com/jbalatutube
My build log here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55352
For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 14 2022 6:54am

jbalat wrote:
May 14 2022 5:40am
It’s going on my 2009 norco so all good. Not sure how it will go on a bike with through axles though??
If its the N380 lets us know, interesting concept.
http://www.ebikeportal.com/nuvinci-n380 ... for-ebikes

You may not have read
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/01/0 ... -them-all/

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Chalo » May 14 2022 9:11am

jbalat wrote:
May 14 2022 5:44am
Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must.
Why is it "a must" for a 1 HP vehicle when no vehicle with 100+ HP has this feature?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by afzal » May 14 2022 11:14am

Chalo wrote:
May 14 2022 9:11am

Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?
I too had thought likewise earlier.

But after doing a PoC for virtual torque controller, changed my opinion on this. While testing, at times I have felt a necessity of brake switch.

Reason: ramp time, to be specific negative ramp time. To provide a smooth driving experience, a non-zero negative ramp time is used. Say it is set at 2s & rider is going uphill with max current, at the end of the hill rider will stop throttle/pedaling. It takes 2 seconds for the controller to reduce current from maximum to zero, imagine at the top of the hill there is an intersection & without brake cutoff, it is dangerous. (my testing terrain have this kind of a situation)

By not using negative ramp time or zero negative ramp time, this scenario can be avoided, but the ride will be jerky & will affect ride quality at all times.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bergerandfries » May 17 2022 4:14pm

rcx194 wrote:
May 13 2022 9:03am
beemac wrote:
May 13 2022 8:58am

jbalat wrote:
May 13 2022 3:29am
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
I commute in traffic. No mountain biking use case for me. Quick stop requires a cutout for me.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » May 18 2022 2:40am

Chalo wrote:
May 14 2022 12:19am
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » May 18 2022 2:46am

jbalat wrote:
May 14 2022 5:44am
Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must. I agree though it’s a bad habit to brake under power.. all it needs is to be aware and you will eventually stop doing it.
That is surprising - i assumed they had sensors. Interesting!

Agreed that you should be able to train yourself to not brake under power - I think I only do it when stopping and getting off in one motion. I brake and keep my weight on the rising pedal as I swing my other leg over...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » May 18 2022 8:13am

And motorcycles also have a kill switch. Although I don't feel like brake cutoffs are really necessary on most e-bikes. The brakes should be able to overpower the motors in the rare instance of a runaway.
beemac wrote:
May 18 2022 2:40am
Chalo wrote:
May 14 2022 12:19am
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Chalo » May 18 2022 9:53am

beemac wrote:
May 18 2022 2:40am
Chalo wrote:
May 14 2022 12:19am
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.
Wow, your clutch is joined to the brakes? Mine wasn't, when I rode a stinker bike. Nor when I drove a stinker car.

My point is, in every other motor vehicle, it's up to the operator to avoid applying brakes and power at the same time. Yet with the weakest kind of motor vehicle, some people think it's important to do this automatically, when no other vehicles have this feature.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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