The Little Motor that Could…

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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The Little Motor that Could…

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 17 2023 8:48am

Having built 3 edirtbikes with 3 different motors — the Cyclone 6k, the QS2000, and the QS3000 — I was left wondering about what the QS1000 motor could do? The wattage this series of QS motors can handle is about 10x the model number or 10,000 watts for the QS1000. The very lightweight QS1000 motored edirtbike is up and running with comparison tests and getting improvements.
0F575BD6-BDB8-44A8-9FED-6883549487C7.jpeg
The drivetrain side of the QS 1000 motor mounted on a Broadie Thumper DHB.
0F575BD6-BDB8-44A8-9FED-6883549487C7.jpeg (5.1 MiB) Viewed 553 times
The pedals are foot pegs only and the crank arms may get shortened.
60980B94-299A-42C8-9903-01860F9C9F96.jpeg
The left side with the slant tube mounted Votol EM100 controller.
60980B94-299A-42C8-9903-01860F9C9F96.jpeg (5 MiB) Viewed 553 times
The Votol EM 100 controller’s model name may be a misnomer as the word “100” suggests 100 amp but it’s maxi amperage is only 80 amps so, so far, the motor has gotten a mere max wattage of 6800 watts. The Votol was a hand-me down controller yet still a safe wattage to be begin testing. The QS1000 motor may get the Fardriver ND 72530 controller as this controller can readily put out 10,000 watts with the graphene battery pack on the bike.

Votol controllers are only programmable with a RS232 to a pc computer. The short worded evaluation of Votol is Bill Gates has cost me more down time than anybody.

More to follow

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 21 2023 2:28pm

A CycleAnalyst was installed on the Broadie QS1000. This morning I converted an old CA-DP model to a CA-DPS so the bike now has a wheel speed sensor [it was a hub motor speed setup] The instrument does read out instantaneous watts. A new shunt from ebike.ca was also installed.

After the CA installation it was time for a monitored performance run. The bike was running a Votol EM 100 controller which says on it’s top: 80 amp max and this output is consistent with table below.
AAE7DF39-BA89-4D62-8AB8-EDD32CDA870C.jpeg
The Votol EM100 controller in use is 72V nominal and stated max amps is 80amps.
AAE7DF39-BA89-4D62-8AB8-EDD32CDA870C.jpeg (424.67 KiB) Viewed 398 times
If I could find a section of snow free pavement I could do a test run. I did manage to find a short section of almost snow free gravel. For the WOT run I glanced to see some 8400+ watts and a top speed 30.4 mph was recorded— which is not close to full speed. However, the perplexing part of the save data max’s was the max amperage.
855C7AF2-C34D-45A4-A949-D90911A897C0.jpeg
Max Amps = 107.8 amps
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The max wattage RO is consistent with the max amperage for the 80+ volts batts charge but this high of an amperage output is above the specified max amp output for the controller even if it is a Votol EM100S.

Are CA’s amp readings sometimes off? I will rig another shunt to compare. Amperage errors aside, I would then suspect the motor can through-put 10,000 amps satisfactorily for burst runs of say a 1/4 mile and that this much power is usually more than enough for hill-topping when using these very light edirtbikes [80 lbs]on such trails.

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by amberwolf » Jan 21 2023 4:18pm

Is the CA calibrated to the exact resistance of the shunt? Normally for the Grin "45A" shunt, that's 1.000milliOhm. If it's a different shunt, the CA has to be set for whatever it's mOhm value is.

If it's not, the current reading will be off proportionally to the difference from what the shunt actually is to what the CA setting is.

Also, the CA Amax records even very short peak currents, which can happen even with controllers that have much lower continuous maximum ratings.

To know what the max continuous current is, you'd need to be watching the display, or logging the serial output of the CA and look at the log after the ride.

There's been at least one Android app written as a dashboard for the CA, that takes the serial output and displays it realtime on a phone or tablet, I don't recall the project name but there's at least one of them here on ES. I don't recall if Grin makes one yet.
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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 21 2023 9:12pm

Amberwolf,

Thanks for the suggestions. They were helpful and motivating.
71867BC5-D992-40BB-B81C-F662959DCD95.jpeg
The new CA shunt has 1mohm resistance
71867BC5-D992-40BB-B81C-F662959DCD95.jpeg (3.45 MiB) Viewed 346 times

From the CA set-up calibration. We see
B51F0EA8-23A1-4DF8-8B78-1DF0D5C62199.jpeg
The R-shunt value stored was .76 m ohms. Probably for measuring amps of a big Cromotor with a different external shunt BITD.
B51F0EA8-23A1-4DF8-8B78-1DF0D5C62199.jpeg (3.56 MiB) Viewed 346 times
Amps corrected 107.8 amps x .76 mohms/1.0 mohms = 81.92 amps which is reasonable as another bike’s CA has recorded some max of 81.+ amps for the Votol EM100. We are back to a motor wattage max of 6480 watts.

R-shunt was reset to 1.000 mohm.

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by larsb » Jan 22 2023 1:10am

My votol em—150 has so far put out anything i set it at up to 300A battery current, my battery cannot do more. I think j bjork has gone even higher so if it’s an unlocked Votol then more than 100A is likely to be possible (with increasing risk for the controller)

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 23 2023 8:20am

Hi larsb,

Thanks for informing me about how one may override the declared maximum current of this series of Votol EM controllers. I still have the 4 wire USB cable and have found a friend with a PC & USB port, so I may try changing the max current on the EM100.

For now I will install on this bike a hand-me-down Votol EM150 controller rated 120 amps and limit it progressively upward as I monitor the change in performance. The bike likely has too high of a sane gear ratio for applications beyond 100 amps of torque and will get a higher top speed when the ratio is lowered for 120 amps?

Snow here this evening so no testing until I can find dry pavement.

Yesterday after the R-shunt correction, the max amps was 82.71 amps — in the ball park.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Jan 23 2023 8:29am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by larsb » Jan 23 2023 8:28am

Would be interesting to see what the program is set at, it’s not the best program so i wonder how good correlation there is between setting and output.

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 23 2023 8:32am

larsb,

I will be monitoring with a CA. I did try a 200 amp shunt but the analog RO needle bounced around too much for pinpointing an accurate amp reading.

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10,000 watts seen on the nearby horizon

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 24 2023 8:29pm

The Votol EM 150 controller that first powered the QS3000 edirtbike, then next moved to the QS2000 edirtbike, is now on the QS1000 edirtbike. The controller has never been programmed by the rs232/pc method by me as it worked quite well on both the QS 3000 & 2000 motors.

Since the QS1000 motor/EM150 controller could be eventually be running at 120 amp, I changed the QS1000 rear sprocket from 48T to 40T. Today the streets has sections of dry pavement and so several 3-4 block run-ups were done.

The CA is not hooked to monitor /change the throttle mapping but it monitors the R-shunt. The CA was set at 99amp max and 8400 watts max.

The first ride was wild — after a fast acceleration the motor reached that warbling RPM cadence where maybe the controller or CV is limiting max motor current, speed or something—fluctuations of sorts? This motor when it was running the EM100 did this same warbling[no limits set], and then would break in to short time period of gaining higher rpm and soon top-out. Not so with the EM 150 powering at full throttle while warbling. It broke out of the straight jacket after the warbling RPM and with acceleration as robust as ever to become a run-away. Dialing the throttle back down did not change the earlier WOT response/action. I turned the key off to stop it.

The throttle response would go to zero when released if you did not go through the warbling RPM phase — maybe up to 33mph. The data gained from 4 rides beyond warbling rpm zone was the workings of the 120 amp controller.
120DFD47-F455-4E60-B269-F4055D867CD5.jpeg
At about 46 mph I saw the wattage reading of 8600 watts. This max amperage 136.6 was the max stored from 4 speed runs.
120DFD47-F455-4E60-B269-F4055D867CD5.jpeg (3.29 MiB) Viewed 186 times
After 4 x 1/4 mile runs the motor was not even as warm as my hand zooming to speeds of 47 mph — with still more left.

The going wild throttle response is not desired. Are the limits I set on the CA causing this WOT response?

Paging Amberwolf — any ideas? Perhaps too much gain set in Wgain?

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by skeetab5780 » Jan 25 2023 10:06am

Sub'd bike looks fast! I also just purchased this QS 90 1000 should be in my hands soon, says 7k burst!

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 25 2023 2:21pm

Skeetab5780,

7 kw bursts? That’s low.

Be sure to get a big enough controller for 7kw++.

Mine may have did 136.6 amp x 80 v = 10,936 watts.

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Re: 10,000 watts seen on the nearby horizon

Post by amberwolf » Jan 25 2023 8:36pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jan 24 2023 8:29pm

The CA is not hooked to monitor /change the throttle mapping but it monitors the R-shunt. The CA was set at 99amp max and 8400 watts max.
If the CA is not wired between your throttle and the controller, *and* set to limit the throttle, then it doesn't matter what the CA limit settings are, it cannot affect the controller in any way.

If the CA *is* wired between your throttle and the controller, *and* set to limit the throttle, then if it is actually limiting, one or more of the letters on the lower left of the Diagnostics screen
https://ebikes.ca/pub/media/wysiwyg/V3CA_Screen11.jpg
V3CA_Screen11[1].jpg
V3CA_Screen11[1].jpg (19.23 KiB) Viewed 71 times
will be capitalized at the moment the problem occurs. Which one(s) are?

Then to fix it, we'd need to know what the CA settings are in order to figure out which (if any) are the cause of the problems.
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skeetab5780   100 MW

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Re: The Little Motor that Could…

Post by skeetab5780 » Jan 26 2023 12:31pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jan 25 2023 2:21pm
Skeetab5780,

7 kw bursts? That’s low.

Be sure to get a big enough controller for 7kw++.

Mine may have did 136.6 amp x 80 v = 10,936 watts.
Ya that is just what the websites say, I am pleased to see your results! I only have a EM100 right now so I will need a new controller too!

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