Bafang M500/M600 thread

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by El_Topo » Jun 12 2019 3:34pm

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it?

I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find.
waynebergman wrote:
May 29 2019 7:03pm
Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600 drive falling a little short on being up to the task. One es member had sent me a PM with the following text....
"I was on Bafang booth at e bike days in Munich last weekend. They had only M500, M620/Ultra and Hub motors there for testing. So the Technical Support Executive say that they has stopped M600 selling end of 2018 in case the torque testing by nylon/plastic gearing they used will break and they did some modify all with steel gears on this 500W Motor System starts for selling now. Also the road motor M800 with used nylon gear was a prototype there and is broken on testdrive last friday :-("

Also I have heard that Luna had done some testing and found the motor in its current configuration to be not up to the task for reliability. Some of the M600 motor weak points being no gaskets, no potted controller, and also plastic drive gear failure. So far so good for my bike but hearing this I will go extra carefull not to put the drive to it limits and also because I am light in weight I may be able to keep the drive running longer than many but I will be reluctant now hearing this to let other people test drive my bike. I also want to share any info they may be relevant to someone considering this drive. As always I have hoped there would be many more M600 brothers out there by now but also trying to honest on what to expect from this drive for prospective buyers.

I guess nothing new to realy report on my bike, still working awesome but as stated before - buyer beware, lets hope for some North American support. Other please chime in if you have any first hand info on this drive........
Deafcat wrote:
Jun 12 2019 1:48pm
Yep, the M600 (G521) should actually be capable of 1kW+ and even more than its rated torque, it's based off the Ultra (G510) but on a weight-loss regime. I've yet to pull one apart yet, but if anyone would do us all a favour and open one up for photos that would be great. Gear reduction should be very similar to Ultra just trimmed down, with a smaller rotor/stator from what I can surmise from packaging.
Bigwheel wrote:
Oct 21 2018 8:14am
There is a Can Bus protocol imbedded in the BMS for the M600. It probably has an affect on the throttle function. This is a new move by Bafang to come into line with the manufactured products by the EU manufacturers. However, unlike all Bafang products that have come before that are DIY user friendly it does make things less so. This helps to explain Can Buss communications and although they don't specifically mention eBikes be assured that it is being used in this sector and going forward more so on the manufacturer level: https://www.csselectronics.com/screen/p ... ies-Basics

Luckily they are forthcoming with the protocol which as far as I can tell others aren't as proprietary control of their systems is important for them and are unlikely to be shared.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by El_Topo » Jun 12 2019 3:35pm

Some of the frames that will take those motors:
Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 02 2019 6:07pm
Here are the models that Risen, info@risenmotors.com, has ready to build. I worked with them to refine the geo to as close to modern standards as they were willing to go. I think if they get out there they will prove to be pretty good handling bikes and additional refinements could be made with feedback.

0.png

0-1.png

JA275EB-DONGPENG-01-Model(3).pdf

Aluminum as drawn but they also do Carbon Fiber. Just doesn't make sense to me to go with CF until the geo is right due to high cost of a single mould.

I wasn't interested in the integrated battery as it is 18650, and designed around the actual Bafang one, so I had them design the non integrated ones based on the 21700 HL style I also worked on getting developed over there by a different company although a standard 18650 HL would fit just fine also.

0-1.jpeg

As I indicated and still stand by I will wait for Bafang to show more support for the M600 and as with Animalector I am fine with lower watts but for here in the US might as well be as close to 750w as possible. A good TS and a throttle are must haves though.
Drop Dead Fred wrote:
Oct 29 2018 12:05am
Animalector wrote:
Oct 18 2018 11:08pm
Drop Dead Fred wrote:
Aug 13 2018 11:51pm
Tripped across another one today. Sent an email for more info will post when I get it....
Image
Supposed to be 150mm travel and 27.5 x 3.0\29 x 2.35 and weight is 3350g or 7.39 pounds
Where did you find this one???

Thanks
Animalector,

Found it just doing searches for M600. It is from TSC Bike, http://www.tsc-bike.com/products/show.php?id=41 , I sent them an email and Maggie responded that they will have sample 18" available end of Oct. Pricing is comparable to most others, PM me for exact otherwise just leave it at that.

I also sent an email to the Light Carbon people about the LCFS1075 availability and shipping. https://www.lightcarbon.com/new-enduro- ... ntalTab022
Tom wrote:
Jun 15 2019 1:29am
Here's one that showed up on alibaba:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 1559ePAU8Z

Image
Last edited by El_Topo on Jun 21 2019 3:43pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by El_Topo » Jun 12 2019 3:54pm

Some questions about the motor that came to my mind:

- If is not UART but CANBUS, how is programming the work going to work? The tool used so far to program the Ultra and other motors seems out of the question.
- What displays are going to work with the motor?
- How is the situation regarding getting spare parts? From what I can gather, it seems hard to impossible to get them if something breaks.

There should to be proper documentation available as PDF for everyone. Every gasket, screw, cog should have a part number so one can order from a hopefully sufficient inventory if something breaks in a few years and one doesn't want to throw away the frame with the motor.
Last edited by El_Topo on Jun 13 2019 7:26am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Jun 12 2019 4:01pm

Keep in mind, in order for the M600 to really perform like I would expect it could, it would require the following:
  • Steel gearing throughout
  • Aftermarket controller
  • Sufficient battery output
If the current M600 motors are using plastic gears, this will likely be their downfall for operating well above 500W.


Nomenclature note: M600 is the integrated system from Bafang, whereas G521 is the 500W rated motor in question.

M500 on the other hand, is the G520 motor, nominal rating 250W with 95Nm torque peak. 3.3kg weight


Also I'm going to dump the details from my other thread here:

BAFANG G521 Mid-drive Motor (500W Nominal)

https://www.bafang-e.com/oem-area/compo ... -g521500c/

We're seeing these already in a number of off-shore builders pre-built bikes (Frey for example), and while it's still very new I think this motor has a lot of potential. It seems to be based off the G510 Ultra motor many of us know and love, with a few notable differences:
  • 3.7kg motor weight, 1600 grams lighter than the G510
  • 500W nominal rating with peak torque 120Nm
  • Very compact motor packaging, increased ground clearance
  • 48V max rated based on what their site says (G510 rated for 52V officially)
There are a few concerns to consider:
  • May not use ISIS crank splines, site calls them "Bafang Pinched" splines on this motor, perhaps similar to Shimano? I doubt compatible though.
  • Seems to require a CANBUS integrated battery pack, based on reports so far. This concern is mitigated for power junkies by controller replacement in theory.
  • there are two versions of the motor on their site, I suspect the only difference is the plastic exterior casing design?
  • Reports of the motor not having gaskets, need more info. Motor is rated IP65
Why this motor could be really good: Very reasonable weight reduction over the G510, while theoretically being capable of generous power levels should the stock controller be swapped for an aftermarket solution like the Baserunner (compact Phaserunner FOC from GRIN). 1-1.2 kW out of this motor reliably would not surprise me, and with a lot of perks putting it will above the characteristics and performance of a BBS motor.

If you have information or photos to add (especially internals), please do!

Cheers

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Drum » Jun 12 2019 6:21pm

Also check out the Frey aluminium framed bike developed over the last couple of years with the help of ES members.

Frey started a thread on this bike recently:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8&t=100413
But I see one of the moderators has asked them to move it to the "Sales" area of ES.

Some info on the new M600 bike was also put up on the Frey AM1000 thread a few weeks ago, and there was an even earlier thread (which included suggestions on geometry and components from ES members):
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... y#p1469024

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Bigwheel » Jun 13 2019 10:08am

Last year we put some effort into specing an M600 based mtb hardtail and FS that had up to date trail bike geometry. Lot's of back and forth with the usual language discrepancies and never really got the frame design where we wanted it to be. Then there was the CanBus protocol which we hooked up our battery builder with via Bafang that was going to take another level of $$ commitment to customize a BMS as we wanted to switch to a 2170 cell format over the stock Bafang 18650 as part of the project.

This thread jolted me at least to reach out to my contact at Bafang to see where they are in regards to their commitment to the M5/600 series. Especially after the Luna posting that there were issues with the drive gear, controller etc. which is never good to hear. But It seems that they realized themselves that the drive gear wasn't strong enough and as of February they switched to a steel gear. No word on the controller potting however but he feels that the M series are more than ready for market here in the US.

So I suppose that the few brands that are selling M600 bikes here, with FLX being the only one that I really know about, are hopefully sporting the steel gear as that would arguably be the most important upgrade for reliabilities sake. It would be interesting to know if Wayne's bike has it but I think because it was pre February it probably doesn't but hopefully if his ever rails he can get the steel version as a replacement but as noted many times Bafang is not the best at small part availability.

Here are a few attachments that came with the last mail, the spec PDF is one I hadn't seen before and very comprehensive.
Screen Shot 2019-06-13 at 8.05.18 AM.png
BF-DM-C-M06-EN-PRINT V1.0.pdf
(1.73 MiB) Downloaded 235 times

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Jun 13 2019 4:12pm

good looking concept bike you got there, I'd like it even more with carbon rigid forks with matching paint! Toss a 3"+ tire up front to take the bumps... This is exactly the type of platform I envision the M600 excelling on.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Tom » Jun 15 2019 1:29am

Here's one that showed up on alibaba:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 1559ePAU8Z

Image

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by El_Topo » Jun 15 2019 12:22pm

Thanks for the additional info, Bigwheel! It is appreciated.
I checked the manual and didn't find anything about a gasket, does this mean there really is none?
The spindle looks like regular ISIS to me, let's hope I am not wrong.

Can someone confirm that the G510.1000 and G520.250/G521.500 don't share the same motor mount?
As far as I ca tell the Max drive, now called M400 is sharing the motor mount as the G520.250/G521.500.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by El_Topo » Jun 21 2019 7:22am

It seems like the motor isn't too bad after all and that the system is gaining traction. :-)
Rydon wrote:
Jun 20 2019 3:12am
...
https://lunacycle.com/x-1-enduro-fs-ebike/
...
Does Luna have the steel cogs exclusively or did Bafang change that for every unit sold?
They also speak of a tuned torque sensor, what does this mean precisely?

Let's hope there will be more frames for this system soon, maybe even a nice full suspension fat bike frame with low Q-factor...

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Jun 21 2019 2:12pm

Most likely the steel gearing is a Bafang revision, likely quite a few things were tweaked. "Hopefully" it's the last time they even bother with the plastic gearing in these integrated motors, which have every time caused problems leading to replacement with helical steel. I've no doubt the nylon gears are cheaper and enables them to launch a new motor line for much lower cost... Then once it gains traction they can swap it to steel. Not crazy at all actually, this exact scenario happens all the time in design and manufacturing.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Stanleybb50 » Jun 28 2019 5:47pm

Hi Everybody.

I just ordered a Frey AM1000 4 days ago. I'm going to email them tonight and ask (kindly) if they can change my order to their Frey M600. There's literally no reviews or opinions on it yet, but I plan to post my opinions and findings along the way as the bike looks awesome and seems to have good geometry.

https://m.alibaba.com/product/607737788 ... m.main.0.0

http://freyebikes.com/full-suspension-e ... y-M600.htm

First things I'm going to ask before officially asking if they can swap my order over to the M600 model are:

1.) Does the Frey M600 motor come with all steel gears?
2.) Do they have access to or know how one can get access to the programming software for it.
3.) Can I get a 52w battery with it instead of the 48v.

Anything else I should ask ya'll can think of?

Additionally, am I making a bad choice in any of your opinions? I think the M600 is right around the price of thr high end AM1000.
Last edited by Stanleybb50 on Jun 28 2019 5:58pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Jun 28 2019 5:53pm

Depends on your riding. I think m500 m600 and other (Shimano brose Bosch Yamaha) 250w is perfect for mountain biking.

The ultra really is overkill for single trail and is heavy .

But if you've got long dirt roads and not single trail, the ultra is well suited. As always... It depends on the situation and preference

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Stanleybb50 » Jun 28 2019 6:02pm

Animalector wrote:
Jun 28 2019 5:53pm
Depends on your riding. I think m500 m600 and other (Shimano brose Bosch Yamaha) 250w is perfect for mountain biking.

The ultra really is overkill for single trail and is heavy .

But if you've got long dirt roads and not single trail, the ultra is well suited. As always... It depends on the situation and preference
Great advice. I actually have a Fat bike I built with the BBSHD. I just finished that and I plan for it to be more of the casual rider machine.

I plan to do some path riding on this but want it to also be good at singletrack. Hopefully I don't regret my decision either way... Lol. Stressing myself out on the decision.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Jun 28 2019 6:14pm

Nothing to stress about. You'll ride on single trail just fine. The lighter lower power bike will feel quicker on single trail particularly when going down hill.

But hey we're not really racing. So no matter what you ride it'll be fun....

If it's an ebike... Its a good choice

Andy

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Stanleybb50 » Jun 28 2019 6:25pm

Animalector wrote:
Jun 28 2019 6:14pm
Nothing to stress about. You'll ride on single trail just fine. The lighter lower power bike will feel quicker on single trail particularly when going down hill.

But hey we're not really racing. So no matter what you ride it'll be fun....

If it's an ebike... Its a good choice

Andy
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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by waynebergman » Jun 28 2019 6:39pm

Stanley even Luna seems to be going with a 48 volt pack on their offering. https://lunacycle.com/x-1-enduro-fs-ebike/ As they have a peppy battery pack that can output the amps needed to hot rod this motor. I am not sure about the 52 volt and the stock controller but I can assure you sellers of the bike will not sell it with a 52 volt pack at this time. I am guessing Luna has upped the ampage to 2o amps to get the peak 1000 watt version they offer. Not sure if Bafang is now using the steel gears like Luna is offering. No one is offering any programing options on this unit to date as far as I know. I would strongly recommend buying the M600 drive from Luna if it was me. We may now have parts and support from Luna with this drive and the price they offer on the pre sale promotion is a steal, dopper post, special programing,peppy battery pack.... etc etc
Wayne

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Bigwheel » Jun 28 2019 6:58pm

I'm with Wayne. Get the Luna X-1 even if you have to wait a bit for it and ride your BBSHD for awhile. As I see it after shipping the Frey is about or even more than the X-1, Carbon Fiber instead of Alloy frame, better geometry, better overall components and backed by a US company that plans on stocking parts it seems. Kind of seems like a no brainer to me actually but I might be missing something?

My contact at Bafang, as I think I posted previously, said they switched to steel gears in February btw so shouldn't be an issue with any of the recent offerings.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Stanleybb50 » Jun 28 2019 10:06pm

Great advice. However - I'm a little scared of the carbon quality.. Additionally, the biggest matsa-ball is that Frey has already been paid a little over $4k USD on my original purchase of the am1000 4 days ago. So I'm kinda maybe stuck with them which is ok if the frame holds up at least.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Stanleybb50 » Jun 29 2019 8:51am

I'm losing my mind over this, so I'm just going to sit back and be content with my order as is for the AM1000... I'm a pretty big guy at 6'7" and like 265lbs (need to bring the weight down) so the Ultra and heavier bike are probably better suited for me.

Just not enough confirmation and tuning ability with the m600 at this point...

Maybe my "next" bike after this (next summer?) will be an m600 equipped bike? We shall see. 😎

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Bigwheel » Jun 29 2019 11:19am

Definitely stick with the AM 1000, guess I miss read your original post...

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Stanleybb50 » Jun 29 2019 11:35am

Bigwheel wrote:
Jun 29 2019 11:19am
Definitely stick with the AM 1000, guess I miss read your original post...
👍

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by M@tu » Jul 01 2019 3:57pm


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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Jul 01 2019 5:18pm

Did they increase the current before doing their "test"? did it break under normal factory settings?

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Bigwheel » Jul 01 2019 11:22pm

M@tu wrote:
Jul 01 2019 3:57pm
https://youtu.be/-OvlweawQhg
I thought they had scrubbed that video....Funny that my contact said they started using steel gears in February and that video was made in April. Bottom line is that they must have a steel gear now because Luna is going forward with the X1.

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