Bafang M500/M600 thread

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Troyp   1 mW

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Troyp » Apr 10 2020 9:45am

robocam wrote:
Apr 10 2020 1:33am
My Frey AM1000 (Ultra) weighs 12 lbs more than my Luna Cycle X1 (M600). The X1 definitely feels lighter when lifting it and riding it. When I put a 52V battery in my otherwise stock X1, it went 28 MPH, 3 MPH faster. When I put a 42T chainring on it (definitely not too big for mountain-biking, in fact I much prefer it over the stock 32, and I only ride single-track) it went 30 MPH at 48V, so I think 33 MPH is not out-of-the-question at 52V. If you use the smallest gear in the cassette (on the X1, that gear is locked out stock), you might even hit 35 MPH.
Hey does the 42 not rub? I saw some videos showing and it was awfully close. I actually want the bike for a workout the motor will just make the ride faster/more fun. It would be awesome though because I could use the same bike for commute and trails. Having one bike that can do both is better than having two bikes that can only do one thing.

-edit I have no doubt that you can use the m600 to hit even 40mph the motor in itself has the capacity it's the gearing and soft limits.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Apr 10 2020 1:23pm

Troyp wrote:
Apr 09 2020 6:16pm
Ahh if they made the m600 in magnesium that would be the ticket! :bigthumb:
Why the hell would they use something heavier?? Of course it's already cast in magnesium alloy.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Troyp » Apr 10 2020 4:36pm

Deafcat wrote:
Apr 10 2020 1:23pm
Troyp wrote:
Apr 09 2020 6:16pm
Ahh if they made the m600 in magnesium that would be the ticket! :bigthumb:
Why the hell would they use something heavier?? Of course it's already cast in magnesium alloy.
I had no idea the m600 is casted in magnesium.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by robocam » Apr 11 2020 4:54am

Here's the 42T on my X1. It is a little too close for comfort, so I'll probably run a 40T.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amzIyAd5pn8

You're right that the gearing is probably holding it back, but it might be good that it's geared this way because the point of any bike with a torque sensor is to be able to pedal along, so it wouldn't make sense to make the motor spin any faster than you can pedal. If it did, there are probably downsides. I'm sure they chose this gear ratio for a reason.

Realistically, people should expect at most 30 MPH out of this bike, and because the battery is so small, you're not going to hold that speed for long.

For me, I'd rather have two purpose-built bikes. One reason is that tires are expensive, so I wouldn't want my commute to wear down my off-road tires.
Troyp wrote:
Apr 10 2020 9:45am

Hey does the 42 not rub? I saw some videos showing and it was awfully close. I actually want the bike for a workout the motor will just make the ride faster/more fun. It would be awesome though because I could use the same bike for commute and trails. Having one bike that can do both is better than having two bikes that can only do one thing.

-edit I have no doubt that you can use the m600 to hit even 40mph the motor in itself has the capacity it's the gearing and soft limits.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Apr 11 2020 9:08pm

Thanks for the great video robocam, also the wooden elevator is dope.

no doubt that chainring is too close for comfort, good test to confirm. What you can do to make a bit more space, is get some longer chainring bolts/barrels, and some spacers that fit good, and space the chainring over a bit, keeping it mind it will affect chain-line and may provide some challenges shifting into the lowest gear (as you pointed out) This may not be a big concern if you're favoring higher speed/gearing.

Also no reason I wouldn't use the 11T sprocket, I don't know why they would have limited that out... I shift into my 11T often on my Ultra bike and while it definitely wears quicker, speed is more valuable to me than babying a $60-80 cassette (Sunrace CSMX8, for 11-spd bikes). For 12-speed you're pretty much stuck with $100 and up right now (NX and Sunrace options), so take that into account.

When you inevitably spring for next chain replacement, the SRAM 12-speed chains are super nice (so nice that 11-spd users should even consider buying them). long lifespan so it may be a while, but for now the best testing shows that SRAMs 12-speed chains are even better than Connex and KMC options.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Apr 12 2020 5:43am

I finally got around to testing the M600. After only a brief run up the street on Level 1 my first impressions are:
  • It is significantly more powerfull than the M500 *surprise*
  • It is significantly louder than the M500
  • I really like the higher speed limit >25km/h
I didn't even get out of level 1 and it was still pulling at 35km/h.

I will be testing it in the bush tomorrow. I can tell it will chew through the battery. We shall see.

Andy

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by HerskerHans » Apr 12 2020 6:13am

Does the M600 run fine on 52v or is 48v recommended? Has anyone compared the M600 to market leading motors on top end Electric mountainbikes like the Brose motors in Specialized turbo kenevo comp for instance? I have an M600, just waiting for the Dengfu M09 frame to put it in. I would prefer to use 52v (I can fit 4 more cells), mostly for more watthours, not for more power.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Apr 12 2020 6:36am

In my opinion the M500 is more like the European motors, I've ridden Bosch, brose, Shimano and Yamaha. All very similar to the M500.

The M600 feels much more powerful to me. But I'll reserve my judgement until after the ride tomorrow

The OEM Bafang runs on 42V nominal. Not 48V

Andy

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 12 2020 1:12pm

Interesting to see the note about the nominal voltage of 42.

Does that mean they are using 13 LiFePO4 cells in series in the battery pack that you reference?
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by robocam » Apr 12 2020 1:53pm

Thanks :)

Yeah, I thought about even spacing it out further or mounting it on the other side of the spider just to see what speeds a 52T might get me but I don't know if I want to space it out for regular use because of how it might affect the chainline.

The reason the 11T is locked out is because it skips but people have reported that they can adjust it so that it doesn't, and I still haven't gotten around to trying that yet, but I'm sure I'll have no problem using the 11T once I get around to adjusting it.

Thanks for the SRAM chain suggestion. So it must be good that it comes with a SRAM chain then, and I bought a SRAM NX Eagle 12-speed chain to lengthen the stock chain in case the larger front chainring required it.
Deafcat wrote:
Apr 11 2020 9:08pm
Thanks for the great video robocam, also the wooden elevator is dope.

no doubt that chainring is too close for comfort, good test to confirm. What you can do to make a bit more space, is get some longer chainring bolts/barrels, and some spacers that fit good, and space the chainring over a bit, keeping it mind it will affect chain-line and may provide some challenges shifting into the lowest gear (as you pointed out) This may not be a big concern if you're favoring higher speed/gearing.

Also no reason I wouldn't use the 11T sprocket, I don't know why they would have limited that out... I shift into my 11T often on my Ultra bike and while it definitely wears quicker, speed is more valuable to me than babying a $60-80 cassette (Sunrace CSMX8, for 11-spd bikes). For 12-speed you're pretty much stuck with $100 and up right now (NX and Sunrace options), so take that into account.

When you inevitably spring for next chain replacement, the SRAM 12-speed chains are super nice (so nice that 11-spd users should even consider buying them). long lifespan so it may be a while, but for now the best testing shows that SRAMs 12-speed chains are even better than Connex and KMC options.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by robocam » Apr 12 2020 1:53pm

These are usually run with 13S packs that most people consider 48V (3.7 x 13 = 48.1V). People have been running 14S or 52V packs on Bafang drives for many, many years, so I see no reason against it. Here's my M600 at 52V.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2IPtda_LFo

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 12 2020 2:10pm

It was that video that allowed me to go ahead and build a 52V pack. However, my Frey M600 would not power up at the full charge of 58.8. Further investigation revealed in would power up below 58V. So I reset the charger to cut-off at 57.4V, and it works well.

I also have been having issues at times with Anderson Connectors. Are those XT60 connectors you have on the battery's AWG10 leads? I'm thinking about changing over to those.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by robocam » Apr 12 2020 2:20pm

I wonder if it's because of a difference in programming or if Bafang introduced new limits.

The battery came with an XT-90 connector, so I made an adapter for the XT-60 connector on the M600. The charging lead on the battery has a XT-60 connector on it. I really like these types of connectors. You might want to try them :) The ones I recently purchased look like this. I like them because of the cover you can snap onto the back to cover the exposed areas.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-Amass-X ... SwW45dJHg9
tsellers wrote:
Apr 12 2020 2:10pm
It was that video that allowed me to go ahead and build a 52V pack. However, my Frey M600 would not power up at the full charge of 58.8. Further investigation revealed in would power up below 58V. So I reset the charger to cut-off at 57.4V, and it works well.

I also have been having issues at times with Anderson Connectors. Are those XT60 connectors you have on the battery's AWG10 leads? I'm thinking about changing over to those.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Apr 12 2020 3:14pm

robocam wrote:
Apr 12 2020 1:53pm
The reason the 11T is locked out is because it skips but people have reported that they can adjust it so that it doesn't, and I still haven't gotten around to trying that yet, but I'm sure I'll have no problem using the 11T once I get around to adjusting it.
That's unusual they found it skipped... I only get 11T skipping with my Ultra bike when that end of the cassette is ready to be replaced.

Best way to mitigate that risk: ensure chain length is correct (nice and tight in lowest gear), and B-tension is set properly. Also well lubed clean chain and the usual wear checks.

This brings to mind a chain tension factor: 12spd is 11-50T, while most 11spd like mine are 11-42T... So the chain can be a bit tighter on 11spd by comparison. Not sure if it has any effect but I figured I'd share the thought, I'm closely studying 11 vs 12 speed on Ultra mid drives for new Biktrix models presently.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Apr 12 2020 3:19pm

tsellers wrote:
Apr 12 2020 1:12pm
Interesting to see the note about the nominal voltage of 42.

Does that mean they are using 13 LiFePO4 cells in series in the battery pack that you reference?
No actually it's 12s 18650's

But that is the OEM Bafang brand. luna don't use them, nor do Dengfu, I believe.

Andy

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 12 2020 3:46pm

Thanks for the reply.

When I first built that 52V battery I tried 3 or 4 times to power it up at full charge. I had to run it down a bit by attaching it to my Spouse' bike and let the lights run for awhile, then the M600 would power up.

I have a bag of the XT60 connectors so I think I may start to replace the Anderson's that I use on 3 external battery packs this afternoon. Sometimes during a ride I will lose power, and I have to reconnect them. This has happened even after re-doing them a few times. I have been using the solder type sourced from Ali Express because the proper crimp tool for them is so expensive (especially when just used for a few batteries), and the XT60 appear to be more disposed to soldering, I can just fit AWG12 onto them.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 12 2020 3:51pm

Animalector wrote:
Apr 12 2020 3:19pm
tsellers wrote:
Apr 12 2020 1:12pm
Interesting to see the note about the nominal voltage of 42.

Does that mean they are using 13 LiFePO4 cells in series in the battery pack that you reference?
No actually it's 12s 18650's

Andy
Wow, that is good to know. FWIW, when I ordered the Frey M600 I bought it with no battery, just 3 empty battery cases. That allowed me to use one as a docking station for external packs, and I populated another with 21700 cells.

Thanks for the update.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 13 2020 11:30pm

Deafcat wrote:
Apr 10 2020 1:23pm
Troyp wrote:
Apr 09 2020 6:16pm
Ahh if they made the m600 in magnesium that would be the ticket! :bigthumb:
Why the hell would they use something heavier?? Of course it's already cast in magnesium alloy.
I was curious about this, so I asked our rep at Frey to look into it with Bafang. The reply was that the case is Aluminum Alloy with no magnesium content in the alloy.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Apr 14 2020 11:34am

Ah that's interesting. Very likely there's minimal weight difference on the M600 going to mag alloy, so they stuck with aluminum alloy (it is simply cheaper all around). The Ultra benefited from lighter casting alloy because it's an overbuilt casting design, still a good design though. Thanks for digging that up John!

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 14 2020 12:11pm

No problem. When I first asked them they said it was just Alu Alloy, but I asked them to go back to Bafang and check because an 'alloy' can have various components, including magnesium. So they got back to me a day later and said they had been able to confirm there was no magnesium.

Frey seems pretty responsive. I mentioned to our rep (Grace) in passing a few weeks ago that my spouse was going to run out of PPE for her team of front line workers at the end of the week. She asked if they could help but I told her it was all good, they were pressing all the buttons they had for supply chain logistics (which did not work in the end). In spite of that, three days later, Fed Ex showed up at my door and handed me a parcel full of N95 and surgical masks for Sharon's team that Frey sent at their own expense.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Tom » Apr 14 2020 3:20pm

Deafcat wrote:
Apr 09 2020 4:02pm
All Ultra motors in current production are magnesium, this is not unique to Lunacycle.

I'll check the weight on an ultra motor when I get a chance with a scale, last I checked they were under 12 pounds not 15... But that doesn't include the additional weight of the frame motor bracket (neither does the M600 by the way)
I heard from a source (with both versions) that Luna's ludicrous version of the Ultra does have a custom magnesium casing and it is lighter by 850 grams compared to stock Bafang Ultra.

There are ways to shave weight on the stock Ultra. For example, Watt Wagons uses Custom Spider + Custom cranks (Miranda) that are lighter by 425 grams compared to stock Bafang. Still a far cry from the M600 weight.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by waynebergman » Apr 14 2020 7:15pm

Thought I would chime in here with a 1500 km update on my M600. I am an early to the party user so I still have the original spec plastic gear but I am light in weight and just running the stock controller with around 850 watts so all is well and I am very happy with with this drive. Very quiet and plenty of pep for climbing single track and cruising the streets for me. I get the odd issue with the charger not kicking in until I unplug it from the wall and then repower the charger up for it to work, not sure why this is. Also from time time I get an error 30 and it seems to be either when things are damp or cold or both, work around is keep the bike inside so it warm at start up and things seem to be fine. Once running even if its cold or damp it seems to be ok just on start up I get from time to time the error 30.

I am happy the drive train is still working as new with the 1500 km on it, no skipping or funny noises from sprockets or chain. I feel this is because of the 850 watts and somewhat babying the bike. I am tired of breaking things and the cost of running higher powered bikes in the past so glad to be riding this bike in this configuration. This power level and ride quality is the sweet spot for me, still a bike but super fun and low maintanence. I am on my second set of tires and very happy to date.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 14 2020 8:46pm

Wayne, my experience is similar to yours, with a number of problems I initially encountered documented in previous posts. In fact I just got a new cage plate from Ali Express to replace the one I bent when I did not notice the rear derailleur was not torqued properly and traveled into the spokes and bent the first time I shifted to the large gear.

Although I do not have an OEM charger, I do use their battery packs and live with the 2.5mm DC charging ports they use. It seems they like to short when you insert the charger lead. That may trip your charger. Because I have both 48V and 52V batteries, this is what I did:
1: cut the DC cord off the chargers.
2: Soldered XT60 connectors to the charger and DC cord.
3: (Optional) Soldered XT60 to a watt meter (so I can place it inline on the charging circuit).
4: Plug power cord into charger. Plug Charger into watt meter. Plug 2.5v DC charging cord into watt meter.
5: Power charger up with all cords attached
6: plug battery into DC charger cord.

This seems to stop my problem with the sparks when plugging the battery to the charger, and may help you as well.
Image

Of course as documented in other threads in this forum, the best connector to use to connect a battery is the XT90S, so I have some on order.

We currently have 4 more bikes on order from Frey, this time they are coming by sea.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by HerskerHans » Apr 20 2020 12:10pm

Hi,

Is it possible to use the throttle with a home made 48v battery? I bought an empty battery case, a frame and an m600 motor kit from Dengfu (Luna x1 frame)

Since im making the battery myself i dont have å 5v input to the throttle or a canbus. Where can i get one or how can i get the throttle to work?

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Apr 20 2020 12:32pm

On my M600 the battery pack supplies 48V to the system. There is no other connections except for the charger port. In this respect an OEM battery would not differ from an aftermarket DIY. Doesn't the wiring harness on the motor kit have a junction for the throttle?
Regards, John

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