Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Sep 29 2019 1:07am

Tom wrote:
Sep 27 2019 3:30pm
You might want to ask Kepler as he got a large frame for his build.
Yes my frame is a large. I looked carefully at the bike's dimensions and compared them to my large Specialized Stump Jumper. They were very similar so knew the bike would be a reasonable fit.

I have 34" to 35" inseam so really an XL is probably a better fit for me but resell on XL bikes can be difficult. To make the large fit me nicely i went with a 170mm dropper post and a 65mm head stem. The bike now feels great size wise.

So a medium with your height / inseam with a 65mm head stem should work well. I wouldn't go any longer then 65mm though. At 65mm, steering was still light and responsive.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 29 2019 1:22am

I went out and test rode a Specialized Turbo Levo Comp today.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo ... 883-170517

Granted it is almost twice the cost of the X1 and less power, but it was surprisingly zippy for a 250W (nominal) motor and near silent (I'd say on par with the noise on my BBS01, if not a little quieter). The torque sensing also seemed more refined than the M600. I don't think I'll be throwing money at a Turbo Levo, but it gave me a glimpse of what the X1 could have been.

I've pretty much decided the X1 is going back. Luna shrugged at how to make the M600 quieter, but was happy to point out it will be more reliable. I really hope Luna can work with Bafang to reduce the noise. Maybe it's just me but I think the last thing e-MTBs need to gain acceptance is loud motors.

If there's anyone in the Seattle area that isn't put off by the noise and wants to take the X1 off my hands before I ship it back to Luna I'd be happy to offer it at my cost less $400 (which reflects the shipping costs I'll be out).

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Sep 29 2019 1:27am

I thought motor noise would come up fairly quickly on this thread.

I two was disappointed with the noise especially compared to a BBS. I think though we are a little spoilt by how quiet the BBS is. Making a mid drive compact so as to create better bike geometry unfortunately creates other compromises.

I took this bike out with a group of ebike riders all with commercial mid drives. A combo of Bosch first gen Bosch CX, Shimano Steps, and Yamaha. I commented about the noise of the M600 but all felt it was no louder then any of the other ebike motors there. I did feel the Yamaha was a little quieter then the M600 but all agreed the M600 smashed them for performance. The Brose motor on the Levo however is well regarded as one of the best motors around.

To be honest, i quickly forget about the sound when riding quite quickly. Its only when i first get on the bike that it annoys me a bit.

I am keen to open the motor up and confirm if it has steal gears. Also keen to re pack the motor with grease to ensure all is properly coated as opposed to perhaps a poorly factory grease packed setup.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by tomjasz » Sep 29 2019 2:08am

Tom wrote:
Sep 29 2019 1:22am

If there's anyone in the Seattle area that isn't put off by the noise and wants to take the X1 off my hands before I ship it back to Luna I'd be happy to offer it at my cost less $400 (which reflects the shipping costs I'll be out).
I’m curious. How many forums got this complaint?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 29 2019 2:25am

Not sure what you mean? I only posted the offer here on ES in this thread. Was not my intent to create this thread to offer the bike, just so happens I'm sending it back. If I can offer it to anyone locally that missed out on the pre-order but still wants the X1 maybe I can save them some money. Or maybe they take a test ride and decide it's not for them either.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by tomjasz » Sep 29 2019 2:50am

electricbikereview
electricbike

And?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 29 2019 3:13am

And here. I also posted my thoughts about the X1 on a non-bike hiking forum that I administer. Not sure what your issue is? Would you rather folks invest close to $4K in a bike without an informed opinion? Did you pre-order an X1? What are your thoughts?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Sep 29 2019 3:20am

I can't see the relevance in the two posts from tomjasz. If there is no elaboration, those posts will be deleted.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 29 2019 3:26am

It's fine kepler. I seem to have hit a nerve posting my opinion about the noise elsewhere and maybe I am expecting too much. Others seem to be OK with the noise. It's certainly subjective.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by raylo32 » Sep 29 2019 5:45am

So what is the vertical difference (drop I assume) between the top of the saddle and the top of the bars? I set up all my bikes with the top of the saddle 32.5" from the center of the BB. Usually the top of the saddle is much higher than the bars and I have to get riser stems and such... and that often isn't enough depending on the bike. Just curious how your works out. So many bike these days have short head tubes and low bars, especially road bikes, but MTBs, too.
Kepler wrote:
Sep 29 2019 1:07am
Tom wrote:
Sep 27 2019 3:30pm
You might want to ask Kepler as he got a large frame for his build.
Yes my frame is a large. I looked carefully at the bike's dimensions and compared them to my large Specialized Stump Jumper. They were very similar so knew the bike would be a reasonable fit.

I have 34" to 35" inseam so really an XL is probably a better fit for me but resell on XL bikes can be difficult. To make the large fit me nicely i went with a 170mm dropper post and a 65mm head stem. The bike now feels great size wise.

So a medium with your height / inseam with a 65mm head stem should work well. I wouldn't go any longer then 65mm though. At 65mm, steering was still light and responsive.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Sep 29 2019 10:12am

Hi Tom, if Kepler or others get to re packing with grease and it helps I wonder if that would be an option to make you want to wait and see. I also wonder if Luna would let you extend your return option a little longer until noise issues are sorted out. Someone will surely get to the bottom of this. My best guess is a repack with the proper grease will help bring the steel drive gear down to a reasonable noise level but who knows for sure until its tried.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 29 2019 1:07pm

Hi Wayne, paxtana (who I believe is Gary, the CS manager at luna) replied on their support page "you could try opening it and adding more grease, probably tricky since we do not have info on opening/rebuilding (or at least not yet)." In the video Luna posted earlier this year I recall Eric saying the motor was difficult to open for their lead engineer, and perhaps even more tricky to re-assemble.



I also emailed FLX to get their perspective on the M600 after the steel gear upgrade since they seem fairly heavily invested at this point with the FLX Trail. I suspect they will have a glass half full perspective similar to Luna, and can appreciate they may not want to say much from a competitive or marketing standpoint. I believe they initially got the M600 before the steel gears as the EBR video review of their FLX Trail does not exhibit much noise.


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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Sep 29 2019 4:07pm

Tom something also to consider, Eric mentioned in that video around the 5 minute mark when he points directly at the plastic gear that special tools will be needed to swap out the gear but the gear has already been swapped. It might be a pain to remove the covers etc (I am not even sure you need to remove the motor but most likely you will) but repacking with grease might not be the headache we think it is. Open it up and jam it full of the right grease and it may sound exceptable to you. EDIT.... I guess if you were to tackle this you would want to ask Luna if this would void the return policy, anyways food for thought I hope this gets resolved as this drive is awesome. I can't help but think as Keplers head to head comparision to the other store bought offerings for noise that maybe somehow yours is just somehow for what ever reason a one off problem. It would sure be nice if something as simple as grease could fix this problem.

Also wondering if a faulty controller could be an issue. I could be way out to lunch on this one but I remember way back with a conversion I did with a Mac Hub motor to mid drive, it turned out super noisy and I could not figure out why it was so noisy compared to the original stock hub motor it was before I converted it. If I remember right another forum member silenced his same conversion with a high end controller, not saying this is a controller issue on your bike but who knows if somehow your controller is adding to the noise.
Feeling your pain........wayne

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Sep 29 2019 10:05pm

I have done a quick video of the bike under power over on my build thread. https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 1#p1500541

Might help people understand what to expect in relation to motor noise levels with the metal gears. I do believe my motor has reduced in noise now that it could be considered "broken in"

Watching Tom's comparison video, I was surprised to see the cranks turn so energetically during that test. To me that suggested a lack of lubrication or some tight internal components on that particular drive.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Sep 29 2019 10:27pm

Kepler I just powered my bike up now and lifted the rear wheel off the ground and to my surprise my crank arms spin pretty fast under power as well. I think it only takes a few ounzes of resistance on the pedals to stop the cranks arms from spinning but left to their own just hanging their in the air the cranks will move on their own at a pretty good clip.

Thanks for taking on the project of peaking inside your motor, many of us will be wondering as well how easy it is to get in there. Also do you have a feel for the proper grease to use for the metal gear should you decide to re pack?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 29 2019 11:49pm

Kepler, thanks so much for that. I agree that after each ride the sound seems less noticeable. Like you I wondered if I am just getting conditioned to the noise or if it's actually dying down. That said, my noise sounds quite different than yours. It's more of a grinding noise. When the assist kicks in and out as I'm accelerating and changing gears it's reminiscent of driving a stick shift. Power assist doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. Here is a short video I took a few days ago while riding up a hill. Near the end you can hear the assist going in and out. I didn't post it earlier as I felt the sound level didn't come thru but gives you an idea of the consistent grinding sound I'm referring to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=689-GGJ2fyU

Would you say this is consistent with the type / level of noise you experienced before your motor was "broken in"?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Sep 30 2019 12:11am

Yep, that is a different noise to mine and it definitely louder then mine ever was.

I can certainly understand your disappointment here. I wonder if a better solution is just to ship the motor back to Luna and have them replace just the motor. It seems a shame to give up on the entire bike and loose all that money in shipping.

Just stating the obvious, but I don't think you will get a buyer with the motor like that so your only choices will be to send back the bike to Luna at significant cost or alternately negotiate a motor replacement which i think would be a better solution for everyone. Taking out the motor and re fitting it is a piece of cake.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 30 2019 12:56am

Thanks, will do. I was scratching my head why I seemed to be the only one having a conniption. Hopefully Luna has replacement motors they can ship. Your video gives me renewed hope of an X1 in my future as your noise seems quite tolerable.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 30 2019 9:06pm

Luna replied back they will not be willing to exchange the motor. They they said they tested 50 of them and they were all like mine, even the demo bike, somewhere between BBSHD and Cyclone in terms of noise. They asked if I have any mechanical ability to open the motor and apply grease. My knee jerk reaction is to ship the bike back to them and ask for a full refund including shipping both ways given they misrepresented this bike as silent no less than 3 times on the pre-order page. Then again, it's been far too much drama already, I may just eat the shipping costs and be done with it. I note they have revised the product page to now indicate the bike is "slightly louder than a BBSHD". I have no experience with that motor so can't say whether that accurately represents the noise or not. I shot another video today to see if the noise was dying down. I also did a comparison to my BBS01 just for grins. I'll upload it in a few...





Obviously there are more important things than noise to folks so I'm sure this bike will appeal to quite a few if you can live with the motor noise.
Last edited by Tom on Sep 30 2019 9:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Sep 30 2019 9:22pm

Did they even listen to the videos of your drive? I have removed my drive from my bike and will see how I go getting the side cover off to expose the gears tonight.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Sep 30 2019 9:26pm

Tom my advise would be to ask Luna if they will give you an extra week for refund to trouble shoot with the grease and or wait to see how Kelper makes out with his take apart and inspection. Lets say its an easy fix then the grease job will be less trouble and cost than the shipping. It will be very interesting to see if Kepler's rig has in fact got the steel gear. If Keplers does have the steel drive then in my opion yours should be fixable to get the same results (unless you have a drive gear from a bum batch). I think you mentioned from the get go you are not really into tinkering with the bike so don't want to recommend something that you are not comfortable with but maybe find out if Luna will give you some thinking time before sending it back. The bike is too good of a deal and too awesome to give up on, but this being said I would not be super happy with the noise levels either. Lets hope for a solution. Keep us posted Tom.........wayne

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 30 2019 9:54pm

No idea Kepler, I'll get clarification from Luna.

Edit: Luna responded back that the shop reviewed my bench test (with the bike upside down). They said it would be quieter under load if I did a test similar to your video. SMH. I sent the video link again but it sounded like they didn't have time.

On a more positive note, after comparing my video from 2 days ago I would say it is getting quieter as it breaks in. Grinding noise seems to be less.
Last edited by Tom on Oct 01 2019 1:44am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Sep 30 2019 11:53pm

Wayne, as far as the value equation, there's no doubt the X1 is an excellent value, but I wouldn't say it's "too good" to give up. Other than throttle and power, I'm not sure you're giving up much (other than money). Compare to the 2020 Specialized Turbo Levo Comp which is ~$6K, but lighter, a motor that is truly silent with an excellent app, and torque sensing that is smoother and more refined than the M600 based on my test ride (I recall you rode a Specialized with an older Brose motor and came to a different conclusion). Of course the Brose motor is limited to 250W nominal (who knows how much they are fibbing to comply with the european regs or how much peak, I've heard closer to 500W). It didn't feel that underpowered to be honest, with adequate torque. My goal is fitness (which I'm finding I get less of when I ride the X1) so rationalizing if I really need throttle and the additional power. YMMV of course.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 01 2019 5:20am

Partial drive tear down completed. You can check it out here https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 7#p1500867
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by tinasdude » Oct 01 2019 10:36am

"On a more positive note, after comparing my video from 2 days ago I would say it is getting quieter as it breaks in. Grinding noise seems to be less." What would concern me if the grinding noise is lessened, were those metal parts creating the grinding noise? Is there now metal dust or shavings in the motor. When opening it up to grease i would stick a mechanics magnet in there to see if there is any metal.

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