Custom frame for the Cyclone Coaxial motor

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Tommm   100 kW

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Tommm » Jun 23 2020 7:51pm

Chambers wrote:
Jun 23 2020 7:29pm
The goal of this project is to design and build an integrated 'bicycle like' frame for the cyclone coaxial that is 'better' than the elite frame.

People have also asked for plans... same applies, I am not willing to supply plans until I have built and tested the unit, I cannot in good concience supply for plans for something that is untested.
My god, buying an untested frame or building from half baked plans, that's exactly how the elite frame came to life in the first place :lol:

If you use bearings everywhere with a 74mm stroke shock, you'll already be way ahead.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jun 23 2020 7:53pm

Tommm wrote:
Jun 23 2020 7:51pm
Chambers wrote:
Jun 23 2020 7:29pm
The goal of this project is to design and build an integrated 'bicycle like' frame for the cyclone coaxial that is 'better' than the elite frame.

People have also asked for plans... same applies, I am not willing to supply plans until I have built and tested the unit, I cannot in good concience supply for plans for something that is untested.
My god, buying an untested frame or building from half baked plans, that's exactly how the elite frame came to life in the first place :lol:

If you use bearings everywhere with a 74mm stroke shock, you'll already be way ahead.
:lol:

Elaguila   1 mW

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Elaguila » Jun 24 2020 2:45am

I would have two ideas.
You could either take existing designs and CNC machine the linkage
https://grabcad.com/library/custom-susp ... hill-mtb-1

or "borrow" motorcycle linkages
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3287056 ... hweb201603_

https://www.pjme.co.uk/acatalog/Aprilia ... Parts.html

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jun 24 2020 3:38am

Elaguila wrote:
Jun 24 2020 2:45am
I would have two ideas.
You could either take existing designs and CNC machine the linkage
https://grabcad.com/library/custom-susp ... hill-mtb-1

or "borrow" motorcycle linkages
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3287056 ... hweb201603_

https://www.pjme.co.uk/acatalog/Aprilia ... Parts.html
I already have a linkage designed - Loosely based on a Turner DHR set up - Same basic linkage on both frames. This will have bearings I just haven't modeled them yet.
Linkage.JPG
Linkage.JPG (40.68 KiB) Viewed 2171 times
coaxial -21.JPG
coaxial -21.JPG (86.82 KiB) Viewed 2171 times
Or am I misunderstanding?

The linkages themselves will be made on my home CNC if the parts ever arrive! Otherwise it's not too daunting of a task to make them by hand - Just time consuming to get right.

The reason I chose this set up is that it isn't too difficult to modify/swap the linkages for fine tuning. It also allows for a solid swing-arm which should handle the torque of an electric motor better than a multi-piece swing-arm.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Tommm » Jun 25 2020 6:45am

Some inspiration
https://shop.sondors.com/pages/rockstar
Image

The rear main bering being kind of integrated to the seatpost makes the rear chainstay a lot shorter. It looks a lot more complex to do though.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jun 25 2020 6:59am

Tommm wrote:
Jun 25 2020 6:45am
Some inspiration
https://shop.sondors.com/pages/rockstar
Image

The rear main bering being kind of integrated to the seatpost makes the rear chainstay a lot shorter. It looks a lot more complex to do though.
Yeah saw that this morning - Looks quite good actually.
Curious how big the internal battery space is?

Elaguila   1 mW

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Elaguila » Jun 26 2020 4:15am

Right the downtube size would be interesting, but no dimensions are shown.
The homepage says: New, 48 Volt, 21 Amp Hour, Lithium-ion battery with genuine LG 3500 cells.
They might have packed 13s6p into the body.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jun 30 2020 3:16am

Elaguila wrote:
Jun 26 2020 4:15am
Right the downtube size would be interesting, but no dimensions are shown.
The homepage says: New, 48 Volt, 21 Amp Hour, Lithium-ion battery with genuine LG 3500 cells.
They might have packed 13s6p into the body.
Yep shame I can't justify the cost on a custom forged design

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Tommm » Jun 30 2020 6:06am

Chambers wrote:
Jun 30 2020 3:16am
Elaguila wrote:
Jun 26 2020 4:15am
Right the downtube size would be interesting, but no dimensions are shown.
The homepage says: New, 48 Volt, 21 Amp Hour, Lithium-ion battery with genuine LG 3500 cells.
They might have packed 13s6p into the body.
Yep shame I can't justify the cost on a custom forged design
You interested in doing a left hand drive design? With crank on the right? Cyclone already done it for eeb frames.

Elaguila   1 mW

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Elaguila » Jul 01 2020 12:42pm

Tommm wrote:
Jun 30 2020 6:06am
Chambers wrote:
Jun 30 2020 3:16am
Elaguila wrote:
Jun 26 2020 4:15am
Right the downtube size would be interesting, but no dimensions are shown.
The homepage says: New, 48 Volt, 21 Amp Hour, Lithium-ion battery with genuine LG 3500 cells.
They might have packed 13s6p into the body.
Yep shame I can't justify the cost on a custom forged design
You interested in doing a left hand drive design? With crank on the right? Cyclone already done it for eeb frames.
Yes definetively this would be the best drivetrain setup imho: left hand drive by e-motor and fixed gear chain drive and right hand side by crank and rear derailleur. I have already experienced the cyclone coaxial motor with all-in-one right hand side drive train but it was not a perfect layout since this motor is too strong for the bike gear cassette and all the remaining bike parts. Especially if you do controller tuning and may go up to 6-10kW.
On the left hand side I think chain drive would be preferred over belt drive due to parts availability, easyness to shorten the chain, etc. LMX 64 has perfectly demonstrated the left hand drive setup with motorbike parts.
Is it possible to design the rear swing arm with enough clearance for the chain considering a 30t front/50t rear sprocket setup?

You are right, Cyclone already has shown this drivetrain layout at an enduro bike:
https://youtu.be/0C5hlyI6F1E

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Skaiwerd » Jul 01 2020 2:49pm

I can see the dual set up working well with the chains on both sides. The pulley on left side looks like it uses the “five holes” as it’s called referring to freewheel mounting. So a five holes to 104bcd adaptor would work? Cyclone and sick bike parts sells this part. Anyone to try to convert or convince cyclone “paco” to do dual chain?

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Tommm » Jul 01 2020 3:03pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
Jul 01 2020 2:49pm
I can see the dual set up working well with the chains on both sides. The pulley on left side looks like it uses the “five holes” as it’s called referring to freewheel mounting. So a five holes to 104bcd adaptor would work? Cyclone and sick bike parts sells this part. Anyone to try to convert or convince cyclone “paco” to do dual chain?
The reason he went belt here is because the drive and motor is on one unsuspended piece. Hence there is no chain growth. On any other frame you would need a tensioner.

As far as I can see paco is using a brake disc to bcd104 adaptor, so any 104bcd cog will fit yes. For the coaxial motor, the freewheel is inside the motor, no need for a 5 hole one outside.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 02 2020 1:57am

I plan on making this frame capable of either motor - Probably 219 chain conversion on the LHS with tensioner, I am conscious of the noise factor though so if I can figure out a suitable belt tensioner I may go that route - Definitely more difficult to do a belt tensioner effectively though .
Tommm wrote:
Jul 01 2020 3:03pm
Skaiwerd wrote:
Jul 01 2020 2:49pm
I can see the dual set up working well with the chains on both sides. The pulley on left side looks like it uses the “five holes” as it’s called referring to freewheel mounting. So a five holes to 104bcd adaptor would work? Cyclone and sick bike parts sells this part. Anyone to try to convert or convince cyclone “paco” to do dual chain?
The reason he went belt here is because the drive and motor is on one unsuspended piece. Hence there is no chain growth. On any other frame you would need a tensioner.

As far as I can see paco is using a brake disc to bcd104 adaptor, so any 104bcd cog will fit yes. For the coaxial motor, the freewheel is inside the motor, no need for a 5 hole one outside.
Elaguila wrote:
Jul 01 2020 12:42pm
[Especially if you do controller tuning and may go up to 6-10kW.
This is my thinking too - With dual drive more power is possible .... How much more? We'll have to find out :bolt: the limiting factor will likely be the planetary gear box. The 4.8kw version uses steel gears so it will be interesting to see how much power they can take.
Last edited by Chambers on Jul 02 2020 2:45am, edited 1 time in total.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 02 2020 2:01am

Skaiwerd wrote:
Jul 01 2020 2:49pm
I can see the dual set up working well with the chains on both sides. The pulley on left side looks like it uses the “five holes” as it’s called referring to freewheel mounting. So a five holes to 104bcd adaptor would work? Cyclone and sick bike parts sells this part. Anyone to try to convert or convince cyclone “paco” to do dual chain?
When I emailed Paco earlier in the week he said "dual side motor with crank Can use both side chain"

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 03 2020 3:18am

For those asking about dual side chain - this just popped up today


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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Tommm » Jul 03 2020 6:34am

Drooling mate. Shame my hub is lightened at the brake bolts in one direction.

Definitely the way to go.

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Elaguila » Jul 04 2020 12:32pm

Chambers wrote:
Jun 24 2020 3:38am

I already have a linkage designed - Loosely based on a Turner DHR set up - Same basic linkage on both frames. This will have bearings I just haven't modeled them yet.Linkage.JPGcoaxial -21.JPG
Or am I misunderstanding?

The linkages themselves will be made on my home CNC if the parts ever arrive! Otherwise it's not too daunting of a task to make them by hand - Just time consuming to get right.

The reason I chose this set up is that it isn't too difficult to modify/swap the linkages for fine tuning. It also allows for a solid swing-arm which should handle the torque of an electric motor better than a multi-piece swing-arm.
Chambers, could you please advise which damper you have considered as of today - do you think a coil damper with 240x76 would fit?


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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 04 2020 10:20pm

Elaguila wrote:
Jul 04 2020 12:32pm

Chambers, could you please advise which damper you have considered as of today - do you think a coil damper with 240x76 would fit?
The shock pictured is a FOX DHX 5.0 230mm eye to eye - I already had the model from a previous project (lazy drafting :lol: ) but I don't have the shock so open to suggestions.
To answer your question -theoretically yes, it's possible to fit a shock that size depending on the overall dimensions - Have you found a good deal on something?

I plan to make the shock mount adjustable for fine tuning the ride, but won't know 100% until I have everything in my hands and the frame tacked up on the bench.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 04 2020 10:22pm

Yeah it's good stuff -

The cyclone motor already freewheels so no need for the dual freewheel hub.

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 04 2020 10:23pm

Tommm wrote:
Jul 03 2020 6:34am
Drooling mate. Shame my hub is lightened at the brake bolts in one direction.

Definitely the way to go.
Dual Chain motor ordered! - Now the waiting game.... I'm sure the motor will turn up before the nuc' 12f though :roll:

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Elaguila » Jul 05 2020 4:27pm

Chambers wrote:
Jul 04 2020 10:20pm
Elaguila wrote:
Jul 04 2020 12:32pm

Chambers, could you please advise which damper you have considered as of today - do you think a coil damper with 240x76 would fit?
The shock pictured is a FOX DHX 5.0 230mm eye to eye - I already had the model from a previous project (lazy drafting :lol: ) but I don't have the shock so open to suggestions.
To answer your question -theoretically yes, it's possible to fit a shock that size depending on the overall dimensions - Have you found a good deal on something?

I plan to make the shock mount adjustable for fine tuning the ride, but won't know 100% until I have everything in my hands and the frame tacked up on the bench.
OK I assume that for your first prototype you are going to use the 230mm damper version...You are right there has been a good offer with a 240mm eye to eye. But what I´ve learned in the past is to make no compromise on chassis parts so basically the original designed geometry will be the best setup :D What is the rear wheel travel you could realize with that kind of damper?
Thanks for sharing the YouTube video with the cyclone 4.8kW dual chain drive!

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 06 2020 2:05am

Elaguila wrote:
Jul 05 2020 4:27pm
Chambers wrote:
Jul 04 2020 10:20pm
Elaguila wrote:
Jul 04 2020 12:32pm

Chambers, could you please advise which damper you have considered as of today - do you think a coil damper with 240x76 would fit?
The shock pictured is a FOX DHX 5.0 230mm eye to eye - I already had the model from a previous project (lazy drafting :lol: ) but I don't have the shock so open to suggestions.
To answer your question -theoretically yes, it's possible to fit a shock that size depending on the overall dimensions - Have you found a good deal on something?

I plan to make the shock mount adjustable for fine tuning the ride, but won't know 100% until I have everything in my hands and the frame tacked up on the bench.
OK I assume that for your first prototype you are going to use the 230mm damper version...You are right there has been a good offer with a 240mm eye to eye. But what I´ve learned in the past is to make no compromise on chassis parts so basically the original designed geometry will be the best setup :D What is the rear wheel travel you could realize with that kind of damper?
Thanks for sharing the YouTube video with the cyclone 4.8kW dual chain drive!
Theoretically 208mm rear travel based on the components modeled - TBH I'm not set on any shock yet, I will likely do a few mods to accommodate something more readily available and affordable.

Cheers

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Chambers   100 W

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Chambers » Jul 07 2020 3:40am

coaxial -27.JPG
coaxial -27.JPG (45.89 KiB) Viewed 1850 times
Thinking about inserting the battery from underneath - through the motor mount. This would keep the frame much stronger than having a large cut out.

Could still have an 'inspection window' but it wouldn't need to be as large.

This would also mean I could make the down-tube even smaller because I wouldn't need flanges for bolting the door/panel.
Could save +/- 20mm in the vertical direction on the taller frame - The other one already inserts from the bottom but is offset from the motor mount.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: Custom frame for Cyclone Coaxial

Post by Tommm » Jul 07 2020 3:45am

Chambers wrote:
Jul 07 2020 3:40am
coaxial -27.JPG
Thinking about inserting the battery from underneath - through the motor mount. This would keep the frame much stronger than having a large cut out.

Could still have an 'inspection window' but it wouldn't need to be as large.

This would also mean I could make the down-tube even smaller because I wouldn't need flanges for bolting the door/panel.
Could save +/- 20mm in the vertical direction on the taller frame - The other one already inserts from the bottom but is offset from the motor mount.
How does it go *through* the motor mount?

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