Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

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geosped   100 W

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Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Oct 21 2020 10:01am

Ok I have a very targeted question: I'm so confused now lol. I want to know based on my use case which kit is better for me.

To say the least I'm way out of shape. I want to ensure I get a good kit that's going to be reliable and last a long time. I'm 250lbs so I will be putting a fair bit of stress on all of the components as I ride off road on dedicated mountain bike trails. Included is a trail I ride granted I'm so out of shape I have to do the "easy" single track. Which is a 3 - 4.6mile loop. Here is a quick video of the trail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPZY_vrltc&t=779s

Now based on this which would be better: Below is currently how I perceive each kit to be. I dont have any experience with either of these kits. The only E-bik experience I have is with an old 48v BMC Rear hub which I burned out. Twichy and sketchy with all that weight in the back.

TSDZ2:
I think I like the Torque sensing feel of the TSDZ2 where it should feel like I have to work a bit and get rewarded. This sounds like I will get a much better work out. However the smaller size of the motor has me concerned that it may get to hot or may not be enough to get me up some of the larger hills. I like that this has a throttle so if I needed to I could just throttle my way up. If I go in this direction I would go with the Open Source Firmware as most people seem to think it's much better with out a lot of negative draw backs.

BBSHD:
Seems much beefier with a lot more power. Definitely more durable. Problem here is, it going to be much harder to control around switch backs, and on more technical aspects of the trail. I have no doubt it will get me up any hill but how much control am I going to give up?

These are just my thoughts from what I have read. I have no experience with either mid-drive so asking ONLY from those that have experience trail riding and or even better if you have ridden both kits and have experience on what I'm trying to do.
Last edited by geosped on Oct 23 2020 10:57am, edited 2 times in total.
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 10ah Zippy Lipo Pack

HrKlev   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by HrKlev » Oct 21 2020 11:53am

I dont have experience with the bbshd, but I have tried to make cadence PAS work for technical trail riding with a cycle analyst. This is my opinion: Forget it. I tried to tweak it a lot, but theres just no way when it gets tecnical. It works great on fireroads, etc, but for the tecnical stuff I just ended up just using the throttle. Which works, but I ended up "cheating" myself from getting a proper work out. Maybe you will have a different experience. For reliability I would chose the bbshd.

The tsdz2 with open source software works a lot better for a workout. When it works, which is not always.... I got tired of mine after a while. You would want to use the temperature control on the open source software if you want it to last. That means no throttle because it only has one analog input. Stack up with spare nylon gear, spindle and the large one way bearing if you go that route.
DIY lightweight mid drive with torque sensing build thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107622

leisesturm   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by leisesturm » Oct 21 2020 1:27pm

I think a BBS02 vs TSDZ2 is a more fair comparison. It just shows the enduring nature of torque sensing over PAS that the TSDZ2 continues to hold on to market share despite the introduction of the BBSHD. TongShen would CLEAN UP if they ever put something like a BBSHD with torque sensing on the market!

I followed the link in HrKlev's earlier post. Very impressive! Clearly, something like it is badly needed. Not just for MTB but for general commuting as well. I bought a TSDZ2 but haven't installed it because my battery is literally coming on a slow boat from China. I'm really having some buyer's remorse hearing about all the broken TS's from the clear evidence of their fragility under what sounds like pretty reasonable use.

This might be a good thread to ask how a crank assist motor can have torque sensing. I bought one anyway even though I don't quite understand how or why it works.

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Oct 21 2020 1:38pm

HrKlev wrote:
Oct 21 2020 11:53am
I dont have experience with the bbshd, but I have tried to make cadence PAS work for technical trail riding with a cycle analyst. This is my opinion: Forget it. I tried to tweak it a lot, but theres just no way when it gets tecnical. It works great on fireroads, etc, but for the technical stuff I just ended up just using the throttle. Which works, but I ended up "cheating" myself from getting a proper work out. Maybe you will have a different experience. For reliability I would chose the bbshd.

The tsdz2 with open source software works a lot better for a workout. When it works, which is not always.... I got tired of mine after a while. You would want to use the temperature control on the open source software if you want it to last. That means no throttle because it only has one analog input. Stack up with spare nylon gear, spindle and the large one way bearing if you go that route.
My first ebike was a rear geared hub motor and that's pretty much how I rode the trail system. I would pedal all around until I got to a technical section or huge uphill and then just use throttle to get me out of tough spots. Or when I got tired I would just use throttle. I didnt mind that at all. I dont think I can do that with a mid gear as well as on the rear hub setup. I guess I just got used to it. Ultimately I overheated it one to many times and I killed it. Hence why I'm switching to mid drive. Hopefully a few more folks will chime in with there experience. Thanks for your feedback. It confirms what others have said. I've heard a few folks say that the TSDZ2 performs much better on trails in general than the BBSHD though. I would have figured the TSDZ2 is the closest we have to what bike vendor's like (Giant, Specialized, Trek) are doing with just a bit more power and durability.
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 10ah Zippy Lipo Pack

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Oct 21 2020 1:47pm

leisesturm wrote:
Oct 21 2020 1:27pm
I think a BBS02 vs TSDZ2 is a more fair comparison. It just shows the enduring nature of torque sensing over PAS that the TSDZ2 continues to hold on to market share despite the introduction of the BBSHD. TongShen would CLEAN UP if they ever put something like a BBSHD with torque sensing on the market!

I followed the link in HrKlev's earlier post. Very impressive! Clearly, something like it is badly needed. Not just for MTB but for general commuting as well. I bought a TSDZ2 but haven't installed it because my battery is literally coming on a slow boat from China. I'm really having some buyer's remorse hearing about all the broken TS's from the clear evidence of their fragility under what sounds like pretty reasonable use.

This might be a good thread to ask how a crank assist motor can have torque sensing. I bought one anyway even though I don't quite understand how or why it works.
I went the opposite direction. I purchased the BBSHD kit and now having buyers remorse, as I'm waiting on the slow boat from China EM3EV. I bought strictly on the basis that I was going to only use it off road and I'm pretty portly at 250lbs. Knowing that I have already burned out a Rear Hub drive my primary concern was durability hence why I ultimately chose the BBSHD(HEAVY DUTY). Although it would have been awesome to have the BBSHD come with the torque sensing capability of the TSDZ2.
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 10ah Zippy Lipo Pack

HrKlev   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by HrKlev » Oct 21 2020 3:15pm

geosped wrote:
Oct 21 2020 1:38pm

My first ebike was a rear geared hub motor and that's pretty much how I rode the trail system. I would pedal all around until I got to a technical section or huge uphill and then just use throttle to get me out of tough spots. Or when I got tired I would just use throttle. I didnt mind that at all. I dont think I can do that with a mid gear as well as on the rear hub setup. I guess I just got used to it. Ultimately I overheated it one to many times and I killed it. Hence why I'm switching to mid drive. Hopefully a few more folks will chime in with there experience. Thanks for your feedback. It confirms what others have said. I've heard a few folks say that the TSDZ2 performs much better on trails in general than the BBSHD though. I would have figured the TSDZ2 is the closest we have to what bike vendor's like (Giant, Specialized, Trek) are doing with just a bit more power and durability.
The bbshd is way more powerful and mechanically robust than the tsdz2. If you dont mind using throttle to get through tecnical stuff, it sounds like you should get the bbshd. The only advantage for the tsdz2 is torque sensing. It makes it feel more like a normal bike, just way more fun. You dont need to think about the electric assistance, just pedal away.

Another option for torque sensing is waiting to see how the "lightest.bike" kit turns out. Its not available yet, though. Or if you dont mind a little welding and tinkering you can take a look at the link in my signature.
DIY lightweight mid drive with torque sensing build thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107622

furcifer   10 kW

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by furcifer » Oct 21 2020 6:09pm

It's not a fair comparison. BBSHD is a throttle monster and the TSDZ2 is a PAS poon hound.

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ginekolog   1 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by ginekolog » Oct 23 2020 2:33am

I ride BBSHD offroad and tehnical trails all the time, 4000km/year. Works like a charm. Had BBS02 before and BBSHD is much better+ robust.
95% of time I ride with 1000W and PAS (50% pedal speed). Only on toughest terrains, mud, snow or wet roots I use 1600W and throtle.

I tried stock Giant trance E+ with yamaha motor. Its just too weak power (and more loud too). I could not climb on steepest sections. :?

With 250lb I could only suggest BBSHD.
Giant Trance X2 + BBSHD + 52V + 17,5 Ah = :bolt: :bigthumb: :D

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Oct 23 2020 8:38am

ginekolog wrote:
Oct 23 2020 2:33am
I ride BBSHD offroad and tehnical trails all the time, 4000km/year. Works like a charm. Had BBS02 before and BBSHD is much better+ robust.
95% of time I ride with 1000W and PAS (50% pedal speed). Only on toughest terrains, mud, snow or wet roots I use 1600W and throtle.

I tried stock Giant trance E+ with yamaha motor. Its just too weak power (and more loud too). I could not climb on steepest sections. :?

With 250lb I could only suggest BBSHD.
Thanks for the input. My BBSHD kit with 17.5ah battery is on the way. Just waiting on the slow boat now. I'm pretty excited to put it together.
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by leisesturm » Oct 23 2020 11:05am

Got my battery last night from EM3EV. It was put on the boat on the 10th. I was told it wouldn't hit California till the 31st and then it would be another week to get to Oregon. HTH but YMMV.

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by Manbeer » Oct 23 2020 8:03pm

geosped wrote:
Oct 21 2020 1:38pm


My first ebike was a rear geared hub motor and that's pretty much how I rode the trail system. I would pedal all around until I got to a technical section or huge uphill and then just use throttle to get me out of tough spots.
Lol, it was the same for me except a front wheel drive which sucked but on the occasional climb if I could keep things under control the 2wd combination of front hub and pedaling would actually work surprisingly well

What didn't was trying to brake down a rutted descent with an extra 10 lbs of wheel wanting to throw me over the bars

A nice bonus is that since I live in the capital of ticks and the trails aren't always maintained , I could put my feet up and throttle through the overgrown sections with grass.

I'll never forget my first encounter that really sold me on riding the e-bike off road was when I came out behind a house with dogs that were barking ferociously and started charging. Thanks to the additional power i got out to the road and lost them after a half mile but it would have been a different situation otherwise. Now I use my normal bike for the typical trails often still but e-bike exclusively if I explore a new area

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by furcifer » Oct 24 2020 4:11pm

geosped wrote:
Oct 23 2020 8:38am
Thanks for the input. My BBSHD kit with 17.5ah battery is on the way. Just waiting on the slow boat now. I'm pretty excited to put it together.
That's a good combo. Do the controller mod and enjoy life at 2500W (if you got a 50A BMS)

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by markz » Oct 24 2020 4:19pm

geosped wrote:
Oct 23 2020 8:38am
Thanks for the input. My BBSHD kit with 17.5ah battery is on the way. Just waiting on the slow boat now. I'm pretty excited to put it together.
Looks like a good purchase, you will have to be careful with the packaging and items inside, wear gloves and a mask when unpacking the items. Its coming from ground zero.

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by furcifer » Oct 24 2020 5:02pm

markz wrote:
Oct 24 2020 4:19pm
Looks like a good purchase, you will have to be careful with the packaging and items inside, wear gloves and a mask when unpacking the items. Its coming from ground zero.
lol, mine shipped on the 17th and was scheduled for delivery yesterday. Not a single journal has any info on how long the virus survives on cast aluminum.

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by Vbruun » Oct 26 2020 12:51am

It won't survive anywhere bear as long as the package is in transit so take it easy

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Nov 01 2020 4:21pm

Got mine all installed needed a 2mm bb spacer and needed to file down the spacers for the bracket. Now just waiting on the battery going on two weeks since I placed my order
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 10ah Zippy Lipo Pack

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Nov 11 2020 8:33pm

There she is in all here porking glory. Haven't weighed it yet but it's substantial. You can definitely feel the extra weight when trail riding and not in a good way. Much of it's nimbleness is gone. On the positive side wont have any more younglings passing me on the up hills lol. I can ride for hours now so at least I'm getting a decent workout. With the extra muscle I could only do one loop now I can do extend my workout for more than 20 minutes.
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Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by Hillhater » Nov 12 2020 12:29am

geosped wrote:
Nov 11 2020 8:33pm
There she is in all here porking glory. Haven't weighed it yet but it's substantial. You can definitely feel the extra weight when trail riding and not in a good way. Much of it's nimbleness is gone. .......
Maybe consider trying it with the battery in a backpack ? ( but probably not that triangular one !)
..it keeps the weight off the bike, and lets you move the weight to suit the conditions....useful on steep trails.
I have a near identical Specialised FSR , but with the 750w TSDZ2 and 16ah of lipo in a backpack.
You quickly forget the extra 5-6 kg on your back and most other riders do not even realise it is an Ebike !
It also prevents theft when i am in the cafe ! :wink:
..Oh, and it is not often mentioned, but the Torque sensor drive is incredibly economical on power use... even though i normally ride with it on MAX assist mode !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by hugh21 » Nov 13 2020 1:15pm

I have a KHS 500 fat bike with the BBSHD and a 17.5 A battery mounted on a home made rear rack. And I mostly ride on technical trails. This includes riding those same trails in winter down to around 20 below celcius. The motor has been rock solid reliable for 4 years now. The trails are tight and twisty so most riding is done using power level 1 and going to 2 on the few hills. You learn to stop pedaling a bit before any real tight turns because of the slight delay before the motor stops assisting. Riding with 1 finger on a brake allows me to give a light touch to just cut the motor out faster. I also have a homebuilt delta trike with a 750 Watt Tongsheng for city use. The torque sensing feature makes that a very nice ride, just like a regular bicycle. So, I like the BBSHD fattie on the trails, not so much riding in town and the trike is very nice on the road.

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by hugh21 » Nov 13 2020 1:22pm

Here's a picture of the fattie from 2018 using a smaller frame mounted battery
Image
And a picture of the trike with the Tongsheng
Image

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Nov 20 2020 12:32pm

Happy to report 100 trouble free miles. Very happy with the EggBeater configuration capability. I can tell I'm stretching the chain a little. When I first put the gear sensor shifting was crisp and clean with out any clanking. Now after 100 miles, I'm starting to feel a little chain slop. Also since I'm not very happy with the Avid Juicy 5 Hydraulic brakes I'm going to be swapping them out to Shimano Deore which I've seen on other sites as being recommended for E-bikes and upgrading to 180mm rotors. The Juicy 5's even after a bleed seem a bit mushy and with the extra weight they dont seem to brake as well. It's probably just in my head but will see if they make a difference.
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 10ah Zippy Lipo Pack

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by scianiac » Nov 20 2020 2:45pm

I love hearing more people's experiences using these motors on technical terrain. I have a TSDZ2 and do mostly technical singletrack. I haven't tried a BBSHD and I am half your weight so take those into consideration.

Throttle vs torque sensing:
I have both on my bike and very rarely use the throttle, the torque sensing feels great however it doesn't seem like a lot of people with throttle only have problems and I think it really comes down to the fact you'll get used to either and while the experience will be different I think both can work on technical terrain (assuming you have a good quality throttle).

Power:
I think this mostly depends on your riding style, gears, and local trails, in a low enough gear 750w will happily climb very steep hills if you are at least helping, just not as fast. The key here I would say is what your local trails look like, if your climbing trails that normal mountain bikers climb (IE climbing trails to get to the top of decent trails) than with appropriate gears I think both motors will work. But if you want to climb things that are nearly unclimbable on human power alone unless you are a serious athlete who can put out serious watts then you might want the additional power of the BBSHD. With my lower weight I can get up those nearly unclimbable walls with the TSDZ2 but both me and the motor are giving it everything we've got and still sometimes I fail half way up (normally due to loss of traction not lack of power).

The one other annoying thing about both of these to be honest is avoiding rocks, I don't bottom out very often but it is something you think about when picking lines, this again depends on what your trails look like (mine are composed entirely of rocks, roots, and the occasional log). This is why I think my next bike will be a high mount motor, probably the CYC X1 assuming the motor magnet issues get sorted.

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geosped   100 W

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Re: Mid Drive Off Road Only BBSHD or TSDZ2

Post by geosped » Nov 21 2020 9:15pm

The BBSHD has been great I have put about 100 miles on so far off road. Yeah its very powerful. I rarely go above 3 on the PAS level out of 9 levels unless there is a long straight section. I typically only need to blip the throttle on occasion to get over a root or rock. So I've been quite happy with it so far. Im not a fan of the long crank arms as I keep hitting rocks and roots and also not a big fan of the extra weight. I think the BBSHD is considerably heavier. I seem to have plenty of clearance. I won't go over a large log though or do any jumps. One thing that drew me away from the TS were reports of over heating and broken spindles and being a "Clydesdale" wanted to ensure it was gonna hold up. I need to find someone local with the TS and compare.
Specialized FSR EPIC Comp Disc; BBSHD, EggBeater v2, EM3ev 17ah
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 10ah Zippy Lipo Pack

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