EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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acwhitney   1 mW

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EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by acwhitney » Jan 07 2021 4:28am

POST 1
Jan 6 2021

Goals of the build:
Over-engineered, I will commute on this bike
Ability to maintain 35mph for extended periods
^^^^Edit - be faster than my bbshd 26er build. Id hit 32mph on flat. Bike weight 50lbs + my skinny ass at 130lbs


Inventory:
1 Enduro EBike frame with suspension (ready to go)
1 Cyclone 3kw motor (ready to go)
1 45a controller (arriving this week)
1 52v 30ah triangle battery (Em3ev smart bms 40a constant)
1 52v 20ah triangle battery (unit pack power chinese li-ion, I assume a 40a constant rating based on size)
1 alfine 8 hub 18t cog (at LBS being laced into 26" wtb asym rim with an 8mm dish pushing the hub toward the drive side)
1 dual freewheel chainring 44t/46t
2 magura mt5e brake sets
1 203mm rotor
2 scwhalbe big apples (love these tires)
a bafang black and white display
1 supernova m99 pro
1 26" sunringle mtx39 rim

I am getting a bit overwhelmed by this build at the moment, my end vision is parallel drive trains: human power and alfine on the right and cyclone belt drive on the left. Ive decided to build in phases instead.

Phase one will be straight forward using the common double freewheel and driving the alfine igh as its designed. In order to save components I am aiming for a 2k max output 52v x 40a. And dont tell me the alfine cant handle it, this little guy is unflappable: purchased as part of a specialized globe in 2003ish. In 2016 in converted that bike to a bbshd commuter that served about 4k miles till it was t-boned by a car in a crosswalk. I was moving at less than 10mph and was pretty much unscathed but the frame was ruined. I am not an aggressive rider and will most likely use about 1kw

Considering connecting my two batteries in a parallel config but will probably start with a toggle switch. Hoping a parallel connection would yield a 20a draw from each pack for a total of 40a at controller. But even if it shaves the amp demand off the 30ah pack i would be happy. Would a watt-meter attached to each pack provide accurate enough readings of v's and a's?

FUTURE PLANS:
Left side belt drive (sending the e-power directly to the wheel)
Cyclone tw has a bcd spider that attaches to the 6bolt rotor mount. I think i can pair this with an offset gates front chainring and perhaps some spacers to clear the rear caliper. but the part is $20 and they have $100flat shipping. considering returning my controller for the one on their site and picking up all the components through their site to make the purchase less painful. Also plan to see if someone makes the part state side.

Image

WTB Ranger tires 2.8 x 26. Are there any 26inch tires between the 3-3.5 range?

Discreet turn signals and lighting

Torque sensing bottom bracket (id like the ability to switch between torque and speed sensing, maybe a relay?)

CA3
Last edited by acwhitney on Jan 13 2021 12:53am, edited 1 time in total.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by Tommm » Jan 07 2021 5:28am

The motor and china battery will struggle to handle 35mph continous comfortably. Motor would handle it except in hot weather.
Drop it to 30mph and you're good.

acwhitney   1 mW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by acwhitney » Jan 08 2021 3:47am

good tips. I live in texas, heat will be a issue, though I typically work at night.

should also mention my main job right now is delivering pizzas on ebikes for Dominos. So much fun!! They provide radpower bikes (highly recommend for a first ebike) but I used my own my bike before it was re-designed by a nissan altima. :!:

My former ride was a bbshd @ 1500w. I typically used a PAS setting that was about 75% power (down from the 1150ish watts available in PAS mode with stock controller. As far as programming, I plan to start at 30a (bbshd limit) and work up. A cautious approach, honestly the bbshd was perfect paired with my alfine 8. Topped out around 32mph on flat. I would love to get that number up a bit though. 35mph is the speed limit on most of the roads I use. I do expect to find that 35a maybe more comparable with the increased weight of the frame.

Until I am able to separate my human and electric drive trains, I will be focused on managing my power so I don't rip the paws out of my alfine igh. Once I complete that phase, I will look into a new battery and controller. The extra headroom on the battery, controller and motor should only serve to increase their service life.

Side project: 8 gears is too many but I love the range, so I am thinking of connecting a 3 speed shifter up to a gear of some sort to multiply the index so I only have access to gears 2, 5, 8.

NEXT UPDATE: Wiring, bench testing and programming the power plant.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by Chalo » Jan 08 2021 4:15am

Vee Speedster comes in 26 x 3.5".

1000W will not get you to 35 mph. 30 maybe, if you're not very big and your bike isn't too draggy. With a pizza box on there, not so much.

If you use a single ratio for the motor on the left side, you'll have the same tradeoffs as a hub motor, without the benefits of a hub motor.

If you like the Alfine, consider a front hub motor for 2WD. I switched from a BBS02 to a front hub on my front loading cargo bike, and I'm much happier with it overall. I don't think I have to repair and maintain it even a tenth as much as I did with the mid drive. It's even lower maintenance than my pedal only bikes, because I'm not stomping it as hard.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by Skaiwerd » Jan 08 2021 12:18pm

Consider 72/75 volts. You’re almost there, why not. A slight price increase but should have more to have you reach your goals. You might have enough power for single speed and forget about that shifting stuff. If the swing arm has horizontal dropouts you’re all set for the chain tensioner part of it.

acwhitney   1 mW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by acwhitney » Jan 09 2021 5:00am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 08 2021 4:15am
Vee Speedster comes in 26 x 3.5".

1000W will not get you to 35 mph. 30 maybe, if you're not very big and your bike isn't too draggy. With a pizza box on there, not so much.

If you use a single ratio for the motor on the left side, you'll have the same tradeoffs as a hub motor, without the benefits of a hub motor.

If you like the Alfine, consider a front hub motor for 2WD. I switched from a BBS02 to a front hub on my front loading cargo bike, and I'm much happier with it overall. I don't think I have to repair and maintain it even a tenth as much as I did with the mid drive. It's even lower maintenance than my pedal only bikes, because I'm not stomping it as hard.
I wasnt clear, for testing I will start 35a but when the dual drive train is in effect I will have it at 52v x 40a for 2kw.

Yes single ratio. Realized the trade off, but I have really come to appreciate keeping the bulk of the weight low and centered from front to back. The gears would really be there to create resistance for the torque sensing bb. I want a natural feel when off road. But youve given me food for thought and maybe I wont be so quick adopt a double drive train,

acwhitney   1 mW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by acwhitney » Jan 09 2021 5:02am

Skaiwerd wrote:
Jan 08 2021 12:18pm
Consider 72/75 volts. You’re almost there, why not. A slight price increase but should have more to have you reach your goals. You might have enough power for single speed and forget about that shifting stuff. If the swing arm has horizontal dropouts you’re all set for the chain tensioner part of it.
also thought provoking, Ill do some window shopping and think of things I could sell to make up the cost. Horizontal drops unfortunately, it was the only frame with a swingarm that fits the alfine, but now I need a tensioner

Grantmac   10 kW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by Grantmac » Jan 09 2021 12:01pm

My experience with the 3Kw cyclone is that even at 66v if you gear it for +30mph it'll overheat badly offroad unless dead flat.
You need quite a bit more motor to run one gear offroad.

acwhitney   1 mW

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Re: EBB FRAME + CYCONE build thread

Post by acwhitney » Jan 13 2021 12:58am

I edited my post. I think i overated my need for sustained high speed. I only went full throttle with my bsshd in two spots on my commute, on spot is slightly up hill maybe 1 or 2 degrees and i would hit 31mph and maintaintain it on the slight incline. The other spot is the super steep hill i live on. I would go all out down the hill. Bbshd clocked at 42mph on a hot night with tail wind

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