Forum name

Perhaps we should call this one "parallel mid-drives" (LMX, Boxx) and the other forum "serial mid-drives" (almost everything else) to differentiate between how the power arrives at the back wheel.
Then move anything light motorcycle related (Sur-ron, Cake, etc) into the motorcycle forum with the decision point being whether they have functional pedals.

Just a thought.

Yeah I don't like that the name discriminates against about rear belt drives.

True, i don't think people are generally familiar with the term parallel or serial drives though.
And belt drive should be added too.

I could call it rear belt/chain drive.

Perhaps we could clarify the mid drive + rear drive section to:
Ebike Mid/Crank Drives
Ebike Rear Wheel Belt/Chain Drives

..are we getting closer?

Dont start adding a ton of topics, the main page of the forum will become to congested.
Remember that old proverb
'Less is More'

neptronix said:

.

Click to expand...

markz said:

Dont start adding a ton of topics, the main page of the forum will become to congested.
Remember that old proverb
'Less is More'

Click to expand...

There will actually be less or equal amount in the end of the changes.
The ebike section will be longer but others will be shorter.
This has been considered.

Put a little drivetrain FAQ at the top and move enough threads to where they belong then people will understand.
Whether the power shares a driveline with the pedals or not is a very significant technical difference. Belt vs chain is not.

Grantmac

.Sur-Ron , Cake, etc) into the motorcycle forum with the decision point being whether they have functional pedals.

Just a thought.

Click to expand...

You suggest, ...have functional pedals" without any further clarification of what that stipulation actually and fully means. My QS 3000 ebike was made from a bicycle frame. The pedals although now disconnected from any rear wheel drive capabilities are still functional as foot pegs and as that are almost necessary for some aspects of edirtbike riding. I have had pedals with rear wheel drive capabilities on this bike but they severely interfere with some recovereys when on steep terrain to the point that they can be harmful to the shins.

This edirtbike is not a premade like the Sur-Ron, nor is it much like a motorcycle conversion. It is a motorized bike with rear chain/belt drive. What if I had an engagement clutch for when I really wanted to pedal or a parallel drive? If you get QS3000 motor power then pedaling does not have much of place in driving this edirtbike up the hillside.

Furthermore, my edirtbike is not a motorcycle conversion -- too heavy.

Most of the break down problems I encounter and sometimes post are about some bike parts not strong enough for such a task as this. But, I want to keep this machine more bike-like than motorcycle like.

Whether I can pedal this bike or not, I still have some of the same design problems suitable to discussion here that most from scratch ebike builders will encounter as a group because I use bike components and not many motor cycle components.

So Grantmac, where do we draw the line on an issue like this?

It's easy for me. Built on a bike frame? it's legally a bicycle, so it's a bike to us. Built on a motorcycle frame? it's legally a motorcycle, so it's a motorcycle to us.

Anything that blurs the line too much will be dealt with on an individual basis.

So anyway, how about the name of the forum?

Grantmac,

Just another thought: What you have stipulated above, namely "functional pedals" would fall into the category "Ebike Mid Drives ". Stipulated as "any sort of drive that drives the crank". A human drive drives the crank.

Don't get cranky but you are in the other category with parallel drives!

neptronix,

One category I imagine would be something like, Middrives without pedal assistance.

Cyclone, Bafang and others would fall into the category of crank use: Ebike Mid Drives

One of my 6K Cyclone conversions has pedaling assistance and the other does not simply because of the chain ring size.

No easy/clear title choice comes to mind yet. But with bigger motors pedaling happen less.

Title name:

Bigger Motored Ebike Midrive Setups. ?

neptronix said:

It's easy for me. Built on a bike frame? it's legally a bicycle, so it's a bike to us. Built on a motorcycle frame? it's legally a motorcycle, so it's a motorcycle to us.

Anything that blurs the line too much will be dealt with on an individual basis.

So anyway, how about the name of the forum?

Click to expand...

Around here pedals which do not provide propulsion make it legally not a bicycle.

But I would say any drive where the motor and human act through a combined drivetrain is a serial mid-drive, where they each have an individual drivetrain that is a parallel mid-drive.

Grantmac,

Around here [LOCALITY] pedals which do not provide propulsion make it legally not a bicycle.

Click to expand...

Would you please list some other illegal aspects of homemeade ebikes that would be in effect locality Vancouver,BC? Could you begin with what is the wattage limitation in locality Vancouver? Is that 1000 watt build of yours legal in your locality?

All posts in this forum should have a 750 watt limitation USA locality, you think?

For locality Wyoming BLM Lands we have less user restraints than your area.

Enough for issues of legality, this site is about ebike builds, not legality. So for those bleeding hearts over the loss of ed pedal assistance or the likes of power limitations forget legality issues on this site. Besides, I have a motorless MTB I ride when I want to pedal.

neptronix,

We have ebike motor kits that include the drivetrain kit and otherwise just motors where you make the drivetrain.


midrives builds without motor/drivetrain kit[parallel or serial]

We are an international forum and it is not feasible to categorize bikes based on one country's artificial limitation of power and speed. Separating subforums by power class is a problem too.

A lot of people have requested something like this. They think fast bikes and slow bikes should be separated. The truth is that most activity on this forum is centered around fast bikes. Other forums specialize better in slow bikes, like pedelec.de.

I think all bikes should be welcome and your concern with whether you adhere to your local laws is not up to us, it's up to you.

As for the parallel/serial drive issue, these are terms i've never heard on this forum in my 11 years here. It would confuse a lot of people. We are not in a position to set new standards in terminology. Subforum names need to be clearer, as this forum has a long history of not having clear categories. And the depth of mess we're cleaning up is just insane.

Parallel vs serial has been discussed many times in threads about parallel drives. Mainly because the default is serial drives and there are unique technical challenges but also benefits with a parallel setup.

My 2.4kw serial mid-drive build is legally a light electric motorcycle. I will not however bring it anywhere that is just for MTBs and ride it in areas available to motorcycles.
I am currently in the process of an ultralight serial mid-drive build specifically to use in areas where MTBs are in action.

I would hate to see people riding light electric motorcycles cause trail access issues for either traditional MTBs or especially DIY EMTBs which follow the spirit of the rules.

I understand your concerns. But legal risks vary by region so this is impossible to properly cater to on an international level. The worst thing is that we have a forum where 90% of the members have not filled out their locality. So many discussions on this topic become confusing and unproductive quickly.

Ultimately we are an engineering forum. Far from the best place to discuss navigating the outside legal/social environment. But the best place to build something technically impressive.

I think a smart thing for the future forum design to do is at least provide a quick layout of the laws and some advisement... and leave the decision on how to navigate that up to the individual.

From an engineering standpoint there are significant differences between a drivetrain which must operate at human cadence through a multi speed bicycle drivetrain (serial) vs one that allows the motor to fully use its wider RPM capability while giving the rider their choice of cadence (parallel).

Once pedaling no longer adds any significant portion of the total power these differences become academic.

Grantmac said:

neptronix said:

It's easy for me. Built on a bike frame? it's legally a bicycle, so it's a bike to us. Built on a motorcycle frame? it's legally a motorcycle, so it's a motorcycle to us.

Click to expand...

Around here pedals which do not provide propulsion make it legally not a bicycle.

Click to expand...

DingusMcGee said:

Enough for issues of legality, this site is about ebike builds, not legality. So for those bleeding hearts over the loss of ed pedal assistance or the likes of power limitations forget legality issues on this site. Besides, I have a motorless MTB I ride when I want to pedal.

Click to expand...

While I agree with you (and neptronix) that we should not define subforums by legality, Grantmac's point was that neptronix likely mis-wrote "it's legally a bicycle", as this is generally not the case.

Likewise, neptronix's point was that any topics for builds using bike frames should reside in the Electric Bicycles forum.

Grantmac said:

From an engineering standpoint there are significant differences between a drivetrain which must operate at human cadence through a multi speed bicycle drivetrain (serial) vs one that allows the motor to fully use its wider RPM capability while giving the rider their choice of cadence (parallel).

Once pedaling no longer adds any significant portion of the total power these differences become academic.

Click to expand...

Yes, and I suspect you anticipate the following, but:
1) not all serial drivetrains are multi-speed
2) not all serial drivetrains must operate at human cadence

My current build does not abide by either.

neptronix said:

As for the parallel/serial drive issue, these are terms i've never heard on this forum in my 11 years here. It would confuse a lot of people. We are not in a position to set new standards in terminology. Subforum names need to be clearer, as this forum has a long history of not having clear categories. And the depth of mess we're cleaning up is just insane.

Click to expand...

While parallel/serial is elegant, I agree that it is not yet widely-adopted. However, as a self-professed "engineering forum", I'm not sure we should let that deter us from the opportunity to educate other technically-minded users. But natural language names may be helpful during any transition.

In any case, Mid Drives is now ambiguous as it has (and would continue to) overlap with this forum.
I would suggest Mid Drives be (temporarily?) renamed to Bottom Bracket Drives, since driving (or even having) a crank is not universal. This would correctly capture all drives/builds that utilize the bottom bracket as a jackshaft, which share common technical challenges.

I would suggest Rear Chain Drives be renamed to Direct Motor-to-Wheel Drives.

fatty,

I enjoyed your interpretation.


Fits both: I have a Cyclone 4K coaxial motor ebike. It meets booth the bottom bracket drive and the direct Motor-to-Wheels Drives.


Yes, like your idea of employing the BB shaft as a jack shaft as criteria for a category.

The categories would be based on the route of the motor power transference not how pedal and motor power are handled, whether serial or parallel?

Motor power transference not employing the BB shaft could sometimes be parallel yet also more simply called and understood as other motor transference other than BB shaft employed for motor power transference.

Natural language? For ?Grantmac, the chains need not be parallel for two drives, but the planes of their motion likely are parallel. Two drive chains can be at right angles on the same bike axle, which is not parallel chains, but their planes of motion need to be somewhat parallel.

The term "parallel" isnt being used in the geometry sense but rather the electrical usage along with series.
A series drive combines the power of the motor and the human through the same driveline.
A parallel drive uses separate drivelines.

The BB is commonly used as a jack shaft for left hand parallel drives on existing bicycle frames. The Cyclone concentric runs both human and motor power through one driveline so it's a serial drive (although without allowing much human power to be used).

Decided to keep it simple and turn this into 'other drives' since there are apparently conflicting terminologies.

The main two mechanisms are crank drive and hub drive.. i expect rear chain drives and all the others to be a minority.. so there isn't much of a need to split them.

Interesting the shuffling, but yeah makes sense all the electric stuff first on the main page.