Bafang G321 / M625, new BBSXX replacement for 2021

spinningmagnets

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The 500W G321 looks like the replacement/upgrade for BBS02, and the 750W/1000W M625 for the BBSHD. I will be on the lookout for info on the details.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DJcMGx-8AleU8eHwc8FJGYX3lmbLslXo/view

7yns270g0ph61.jpg


w1QXqYT.jpeg
 
If true, that would be a pity. And the form factor of the battery at the link is *huge*... especially considering the square nose as compared to a "shark" pack it wouldn't fit on either of my MTB's which are sized L and XL. Might fit on my gravel bike size L. Maybe.

spinningmagnets said:
THESE DRIVES "MIGHT" ONLY WORK WITH A BAFANG BATTERY.
 
Thanks for the documention spinning' Doesn't look like they finally built in a torque sensor though. And I'm still missing a clean way to bolt the device into a BB without squeeking noises. You'd need 2x custom BB cups and a motor unit with matching slots for that - no idea why nobody is building them.

To me, the whole thing is just a move to push bbsxx user towards the all new all restrictive online registration requiring can bus system they introduced in M600 units which frankly sucks. My advice: grab some good ol' bbs02's as long as they have stock. Only good thing bafang introduced recently where hub motors because you can still run them on whatever hardware you want; their mid drives are basically diy-dead.
 
Bafang makes a lot of factory mid drives with torque-sensing which I believe are more profitable for them, so it looks like they are trying to keep the ISIS cranks and torque-sensing as an upscale feature for one of their factory ebike partners.

Ultra2.png
 
spinningmagnets said:
Bafang makes a lot of factory mid drives with torque-sensing which I believe are more profitable for them, so it looks like they are trying to keep the ISIS cranks and torque-sensing as an upscale feature for one of their factory ebike partners.

Ultra2.png

Probably no point in speculating about bafangs budget spreadsheet, though I highly doubt integrated mid drives like the picture you posted are more profitable than the cheap hubs or even bbsxx units. I see recent development rather as an attempt to increase penetration into the worlds largest ebike market (EU), which has strict anti tinkering rules and though mid drive competition and a push to secure the North American Market.

In my experience, mid drives shine in countries where ultra restrictive legislations forces manufacturers to adopt high power to weight motors up to 500W. At higher power levels like the 750w you see in many US states, hubs are just way more robust, and in many cases also more efficient. So why would someone want to sell high power mid drives ? Seems to me like an open door to many problems. Just check the M600 thread to see the amount of customer service it requires...
 
spinningmagnets said:
THESE DRIVES "MIGHT" ONLY WORK WITH A BAFANG BATTERY.

Bafang practically dominate the midrive market because their BBSXX series can be installed on nearly any generic bicycle frame. It would be EXTREMELY foolish to abandon that market niche.
 
This is an interesting take. I am a "real" bicyclist so the appeal of mid drives for me is that they drive the bike the same way that I do when I pedal... and you don't have to have a special wheel or adapt one to carry a big ugly hub motor. And for technical off road riding that huge unsprung weight would simply be a non-starter.

But I hear you. I need to spend some time looking into hubs... not sure how the direct drives would climb our steep hills?? And geared hubs sound like a noisy and less reliable proposition. I just don't understand their capabilities and how the DD's might handle high load, low speed climbs. Mid drives you just shift gears to get in the pedaling sweet spot which should also be a good operating place for the motor. But hubs look pretty flexible and you can "roll your own" system with a torque sensing BB and a Cycle Analyst. I was getting ready to convert the GF's bike with a TSDZ2 but maybe a hub is a better way to go, if only for the added reliability and to not create extra work for moi. Hmmm....

qwerkus said:
In my experience, mid drives shine in countries where ultra restrictive legislations forces manufacturers to adopt high power to weight motors up to 500W. At higher power levels like the 750w you see in many US states, hubs are just way more robust, and in many cases also more efficient. So why would someone want to sell high power mid drives ? Seems to me like an open door to many problems. Just check the M600 thread to see the amount of customer service it requires...
 
raylo32 said:
This is an interesting take. I am a "real" bicyclist so the appeal of mid drives for me is that they drive the bike the same way that I do when I pedal... and you don't have to have a special wheel or adapt one to carry a big ugly hub motor. And for technical off road riding that huge unsprung weight would simply be a non-starter.

But I hear you. I need to spend some time looking into hubs... not sure how the direct drives would climb our steep hills?? And geared hubs sound like a noisy and less reliable proposition. I just don't understand their capabilities and how the DD's might handle high load, low speed climbs. Mid drives you just shift gears to get in the pedaling sweet spot which should also be a good operating place for the motor. But hubs look pretty flexible and you can "roll your own" system with a torque sensing BB and a Cycle Analyst. I was getting ready to convert the GF's bike with a TSDZ2 but maybe a hub is a better way to go, if only for the added reliability and to not create extra work for moi. Hmmm....

qwerkus said:
In my experience, mid drives shine in countries where ultra restrictive legislations forces manufacturers to adopt high power to weight motors up to 500W. At higher power levels like the 750w you see in many US states, hubs are just way more robust, and in many cases also more efficient. So why would someone want to sell high power mid drives ? Seems to me like an open door to many problems. Just check the M600 thread to see the amount of customer service it requires...

Regarding direct drive hubs and hills. Not a good combo in my mind. Geared hubs and mid drives both work better - until you get into some crazy big batteries.

Noise and geared hubs - Noise NOT an issue. Just like when talking mid drives, if they use composite gears (not metal!) they are nearly silent and wear is negligible - again assuming you avoid extremes. With enough power and enough load, you can get the motor hot enough to melt them.

Bafang mid drives (bbsxx) if you get one with a UART based controller, they are user configurable, and work really well - but lack torque sensing. You'll need to go to the Ultra motor to get that.
 
FME, riding a BBS02 for six years at 52V and, since I like to pedal, never higher than level 3 (of 9), I don't miss the torque sensor. I have a Haibike Yamaha to compare to the BBS and have ridden at many other mid-drives with torque sensors. The BBS seems like it takes a little more finesse than the "torque-sensed", but is as much fun.
 
2old said:
FME, riding a BBS02 for six years at 52V and, since I like to pedal, never higher than level 3 (of 9), I don't miss the torque sensor. I have a Haibike Yamaha to compare to the BBS and have ridden at many other mid-drives with torque sensors. The BBS seems like it takes a little more finesse than the "torque-sensed", but is as much fun.

Same here. 4 years bbs02 heavily used - never had any problem. PAS sometimes produces silly responses, but overall a very good motor; quiet and powerful. Not as silent and efficient as my 20" DD hub though...
 
Mine has a 22 amp controller (I know, doesn't help) and whatever the stock settings are (never delved into this aspect); total weight about 230 (180, me; 50 or so bike).
 
I have 2 mid drive bikes

1. 1995 Cannondale F1000 hardtail MTB with TSDZ2 and 26x1.75 city tires. Running the OSF I believe it is rated for 750W... might be higher peak but I haven't seen that whilst riding. Has a shark mount 52V 12 Ah battery, a rear rack with an auxiliary mount for an EGO 56v (really 52V) power tool range extender battery. All in weight without the extra battery is about 48 pounds. Me 185 so total 233. Most rides I just go out and try to do longer miles so don't push the assist or speed. But today I decided to give it some gas. Did a 22 mile loop with 1000 feet climbing that I knew the battery had plenty of capacity for... mostly in assist 3 and 4 (out of 5). Finished it in exactly 1 hour. The motor temp with my cooling mods never went above 163F on this 90+ degree F day but it never went much below 150 except on some longer downhills. Battery SOC at start was 100%, at finish 47%. This was fast but not not a 100% max performance ride... I could have gone faster in places. I need to get my front flashing light installed to help with visibility in the suburban part at the beginning and end of the rides for these faster runs.

2. 2003 Specialized Stumpjumper XC with CYC X1 Pro Gen 2, with the smaller controller so the 2800W version. 2.3 (F) and 2.1 (R) knobbies. No racks or anything, same 52 V battery as above, all in weight 50 pounds. Me the same 185. I haven't done a fast ride on it like the above... yet. But it will hit over 40 mph on the flat with throttle... which is way past spun out on the pedals.

Both bikes have torque sensors that work very well which for me as a serious pedal bike guy is very important. IOW they both ride like regular bikes. Any e-bike I build will have a TS. After the discussion above I am leaning toward a geared hub for my GF's bike with a TS bottom bracket. The mechanical simplicity and redundant power drive (if your chain were to break) will make it a more bulletproof and lower maintenance thing than these mid drives. Plus she isn't the best at shifting so might break something if she had a mid drive. The Grin guys have a fantastic selection of gear and packages for hub motors.

markz said:
What power levels are you guys rocking those mid drives at and whats the total weight you included?
 
markz said:
What power levels are you guys rocking those mid drives at and whats the total weight you included?

I try to stay within specs. 750-800W. Weight varies with kids, trailer and stuff. I managed to haul 170kg up 1200m altitude with that motor using a large granny gear.
 
I am going to be trying to pull a trailer one of these days. We take our pedal bikes on a local flat trail and bring along the dog in his trailer for 25-30 miles usually with a lunch stop. I have no problem pulling him but it is a lot of work and It will be a lot more fun to do on e-bikes. We won't be going any faster than about 12 mph (busy trail and don't want to rattle the little dog) which is what we normally do so the battery should last a long time.

qwerkus said:
I try to stay within specs. 750-800W. Weight varies with kids, trailer and stuff. I managed to haul 170kg up 1200m altitude with that motor using a large granny gear.
 
Well, I hope Bafang doesn't completely ruin what is an awesome motor in the BBSHD. I just got back from another great ride on my full suspension MTB on one of our fairly technical trails, and it was a hoot as always. With a program cable these units are highly adaptable to technical off road riding, and unless Bafang has truly polished the power output on these apparently new designs, the inability to tune the motor to one's needs and applications will really suck IMO.

This new design does have an interesting method of attaching the motor to the downtube which will probably work with most frame designs. Though I had little issue making my own aluminum plate attached to the downtube for added motor attachment integrity. On what may appear to be a non-DIY tuning capability for the new motors, if Bafang could somehow have made the power delivery a very linear, smooth curve that can be manipulated successfully via the display, that wouldn't be a bad thing. Still, the ability to touch just about every aspect of tuning and power delivery via a program cable like we currently have is kind of hard to beat. I have been able to yield a power curve that is much like our Trek and Spec emtb's at the shop I work at.
 
I've not seen this posted on any other sites that has this specific info as presented here by spinning. I'm surprised no one has commented on the new attachment point on top of the motor. Good, bad, or ugly, that's quite a different element.
 
That new attachment point looks like a cheesy point of failure. The mechanical stress of continuous vibration plus a decent hit on a log or rock will likely break that off. Bafang would have done better with a molded channel and a rubber strip on top of the casing so you could strap the motor to the downtube from the bottom. This little eye-thingy looks like the first thing I'm going to saw off before I install. Lame.
 
Looks like a de-provement from here?
 
I believe that High Voltage commented on this change, and very negatively.

I've not seen this posted on any other sites that has this specific info as presented here by spinning. I'm surprised no one has commented on the new attachment point on top of the motor. Good, bad, or ugly, that's quite a different element.
 
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