20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

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20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 11 2009 4:52pm

Well, after many months now, of farting around with this, I finally have at least one setup tested. Bottomline is that it works quite well, but I still have some issues. More about that later. First some pics:
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The basic setup uses Matt's drive, mounted to the rear rack, but because of the geometry required to use a separate chain to the rear, I had to do a separate jackshaft. The 1st stage reduction, which uses #25 chain, has a 14T motor sprocket driving a 55T that's mounted on a ENO freewheel.
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For the jackshaft, I used half of a headset stem, bolted to a plate, which is in turn bolted to the seatpost with a couple of U-clamps. Since the stem is for 1-1/8" headsets, I just put in a couple of the same bearings that Matt uses in his tubes, and tightened the clamps. This actually works pretty well.
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The output of the jack shaft is a 12T track cog, mounted on one of Matt's FW adapters, along with a bottom bracket lockring to hold it in place. This 12T cog drives a 34T sprocket mounted on the rear Nexus-3 hub. I'm using the same Cyclone crank, with a freewheel, and a 44T sprocket. It drives a second rear sprocket, which has 22T. In order to get two sprockets on the Nexus hub, I sandwiched a 16T Nexus cog in between the 22T 64mm BCD "granny gear", and a Dimension "Big Cheese" 110mm BCD adapter, which in turn holds the 34T chainring that the jackshaft drives.
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For power, I'm using a 15s4p a123 pack, which I had to do because all my 16s packs are too much, voltage-wise, for the HV110 controller. It seems to work just fine, though, even right off the charger. I built it with an embedded LVC-only board, like all my own packs, as I've found if I do a full BMS, the heat generated melts the shrink wrap. Instead, I'm now using a separate "CMS", or balancer, which connects to the pack via a multipin connector. Each channel has its own bicolor LED that comes on red, once the charger is in the full-current CC mode, and then transitions to fully green once the cell is completely full.
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The opto output from the LVC board is connected to Richard's Throttle Convertor unit, which I have mounted just ahead of the seat tube. and there's a Watt'sUp mounted on top of the TC box. Finally, I'm using a resistive (0-5k) Magura throttle.
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Initially, I had the usual chain alignment and tension problems, but I finally got all those sorted out yesterday, and I took it out for the first real test. I started with the HV110 set to the factory settings, except that I disabled the brake function. I started getting LVC cutouts, which turns out were the controller itself, not the LVC board. I had to set the LVC voltage to about 30V, which basically disables it. Now, it desn't cutout, but something else is limiting the current to 57A, as you can see in the WattsUp reading above. The peak watts I'm seeing is about 2200W.

Even with a 2500W/57A limit, the performance is quite zippy. :D I love using the Nexus hub for this, as it can be shifted anytime, even at a dead stop and you don't have to let off the throttle to up shift. You do have to let up slightly, if downshifting, though, which is fine. Power seems very close to what I was seeing with the Cyclone setup that was on here before, which makes sense as the input power is similar, but with this setup, you really do need to use all three gears. In first gear, the torque is enough to throw my 180-pound son off the back, but not quite enough to flip my more generous butt. :roll: :mrgreen: In third, it seems like there's a bit more top-end, but I don't know for sure as the el chepo speedometer is not working. Before, with the Cyclone, it topped out at about 32-33 mph, but this seems a bit more as it is a bit more squirrely. I'm guessing about 35.

After about ten minutes of tooling around, I checked the motor and it was pretty hot. You wouldn't be able to keep your hand on it. I then went back to the settings, and dialed in low timing and the 8kHz PWM rate. After another 10 minutes, or so, the motor was not anywhere near as hot. I could leave my hand on it, and not leave smoldering skin. ;) I still need to sort out the 57A limit problem, but so far I'm pretty pleased with how it is working. It is a VERY light setup, compared to the Cyclone, which was a lot lighter than the original 5303 setup I had on this bike. Power is more than enough for this bike, which is mainly used for beach cruises, down on Mission Bay, but it also has plenty of power to get my aforementioned generous rear, up and down any of the hills we have around here.

I'm already looking ahead to the next version, though. Now that I have verified, to my own satisfaction, that properly geared, a single 3210 will work quite well, I'm now pretty confident that with a 3220, I can get even better performance and can eliminate the jackshaft all together. :) I'm going to use a 7-turn 3220, which has a kV of 97 (the 3210-12T has a kV of 113...), and drive the rear directly. To make this work, I will use #35 heavy-duty go kart chain and sprockets. You can get sprockets up to 72T and McMaster has .375" motor sprockets in sizes from 9-13T. Because the 3220 has more torque to start with, I can gear it up a bit more. With a 9T/72T setup, the ratio is 8:1 (in 2nd...), vs the roughly 11:1 in the current 3210 setup. This same direct-drive 3220 setup could also be used on larger 26" bikes, like my Townies, but on those I would use an 8-speed hub, like the Nexus-8 or the newer Alfine.

Anyway, more to come. Next up I'm going to try and hook up my EagleTree MicroLogger, and mount my video camera. :)

-- Gary

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by deecanio » Jul 11 2009 5:09pm

Hi Gary,

nice report, particularly of interest to me as we have such similair setups.
Using the same pack exactly i havent seen any issues with current being limited? in the brief testing we've done thus far it draws the full 100a which richards throttle coverter seems to limit very well.
Speeds have been around 20 in first and 29 or so in second, we haven't use third as the brace needed to be strengthened due to the torque, which i took as a good sign.
Looking forward to a vid and some more reports, i'll also be very interested to see what a 3220 can do in direct drive, which is something i may consider too if the current setup doesn't satisfy, but so far so good.
I also took one of your 16 cell boards from AndyH so hopefully we will be using that in conjunction with my new charger to keep things in check, but great to know the 15s is cool fresh off the charger with the 110 - again many thanks for posting your findings, invaluable to me!!!

Cheers,

D
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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by Miles » Jul 11 2009 5:34pm

Well done, Gary! :D

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 11 2009 5:42pm

Your setup was actually why I kept going with this, even though I ended up spending a couple weeks getting the whole jackshaft idea to work. I wanted to test something similar to your setup, so that we could compare apples-to-apples.

For the direct drive setup, I thought about using the same #219 chain and sprockets you are using, but the motor sprockets are all tapered and don't use setscrews. How did you get your's mounted? Anyway, the #35 stuff seems just as beefy, and is more readily available over here.

I have another smaller folding bike, a 16" Dahon Curve D3, which has a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub, that I will move this setup to, except it too will be direct drive, I think. This will be an extremely compact and lightweight setup, but still quite powerful.

Weird about the current limit issue I'm having. Glad to hear you aren't having the same problem. With essentialy 40% more power, yours must rip! :) Anyway, I'm sure it is just a setting, or something. For one thing, I never calibrated the throttle end-points, so it might be as simple as that. We'll see.

-- Gary

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 11 2009 5:42pm

Miles wrote:Well done, Gary! :D
Thanks! :)

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by deecanio » Jul 12 2009 4:33am

Hi Gary,

i will check with Steve which settings he used for the 110 but as you say it could be the throttle setting issue, interesting about the pwm? setting that made the motor run cooler i'll have to ask him about him about that too - because the guys are testing sporadically i don't have as much info as i'd like to give you but that will soon change :) i do know that after some brief testing on a 30 degre day the hv was only reading 36 degrees, but this could be due to the brief test and i may see higher once we run it hard for a longer period of time but Steve was impressed, we are still going to give the esc it's own box for two reasons, firstly the risk of the esc flaming (we hope to control it if it ever happens so its away from my legs) and secondly to give it its own 50mm fan to keep things in check.

A few people have asked me about the 219" sprocket, indeed it was a pita to fit, why they dont do a straight hole i'll never understand and also your correct that there are no set screws for it either - try machining it too!!! tough as nails and we had to abandon that plan!!
We got round it by replacing the shaft that came with the drive and then having the shaft machined to fit the taper, theres also a keyway which we made a key for and then secured by tapping the end of the shaft and having a screw in the end to keep the sprocket on the key and in check, in hindsight i may have been better off using #35 myself :roll:
It's all these niggles that have taken up the time of the build thus far not to mention the sprocket adapter and now the essential "bash ring" to protect from the spinning kart chainring.

I do have a brief 1st gear test vid somewhere, nothing too impressive but i'll post it on my thread to save clogging yours, here is a shot of the sprocket, you can just make out the keyway and see the screw that retains as opposed to a grub set screw - i'll post up for you what steve set on the 110 incase that helps with your current issue when i get it. I should have some better test vids for you soon as the brace is now complete so we should be looking at some good test runs this week, man this build moves slow ;)

Cheers,

D
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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by Miles » Jul 12 2009 4:51am

Hi D,

I discovered that you can get them with straight 3/4" bore, keyway and set-screw, here: http://www.gokartgalaxy.com/engine_sprockets1.htm Next time.... :)

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by deecanio » Jul 12 2009 5:10am

nice find Miles, thanks for the heads up.
I'll stick with what i have for the time being but any issues and i'll know where to look.
So i guess i'd get a 3/4 shaft and have it machined to 1/2" except where the sprocket goes, nice.
Bob did take the liberty of having two custom shafts made so i do have a spare for the tapered sprckets if i need it but great find, might be useful to gary too if wanted 219 in particular, it's good to share :D

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by gwhy! » Jul 12 2009 5:21am

as D said they are as hard as nails, I got round it by turning down shoulder onto a bar ( about 14mm ) that fitted into the sprocket end of the taper. I cut (ground the sprocket length so the hole through the sprocket was the 14mm one) then inserted the turned down bar into the sprocket then welded the bar the to the sprocket then drilled a 12mm hole though the lot and put a grub screw through the bar. This has worked very well and was a lot easier than it sounds :D . Or my plan b was going to be use one of the sprockets that bolts onto the clutch with 3 screws ( i cant find a picture at the mo ). If I can find a picture of this type of sprocket i will post it up.

found it Image

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 12 2009 5:34am

Great job Gary! Beautiful compact lightweight little monster! I can't wait to hear how it does when you get the controller pumping out full power.

It kinda looks like all Matt's drive is getting used for is a motor bracket?

Is the noise/vibration an issue with using the chain on the primary reduction?

Looks like you did a great job creatively solving the problem of working in such a compact little frame area. I love it! great job!

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by recumpence » Jul 12 2009 7:33am

Very interesting job, Gary! I am glad you figured that out. Kind of complicated, huh? :D

One nice thing about your setup is the motor mount gives you chain adjustment by rotating the mount plate and snugging the clamp screws.

Tight mounting areas are a PITA!

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by PaulM » Jul 12 2009 8:19am

GGoodrum wrote:To make this work, I will use #35 heavy-duty go kart chain and sprockets. You can get sprockets up to 72T and McMaster has .375" motor sprockets in sizes from 9-13T.
Nice work on the bike! If needed, #35 sprockets are available up to 102 teeth from Horstman. They are quite large though, especially for a 20" wheel. Mine measures just over 12 inches OD.

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by Sacman » Jul 12 2009 10:06am

Nice work Gary. Hurry up with the videos. I'm anxious to see how this thing moves out and shifts!

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 12 2009 11:18am

I got the #35 motor sprockets (9-12T...) and the chain from McMaster yesterday. They are very robust, to say the least. It looks to be every bit as strong as the #219 stuff, it would appear. I'll get the big sprockets on Tuesday. Nice to hear you can get even larger sprockets. That will make doing a direct drive even easier. Even with the 72T the "extra" reduction in first is equivalent to about a 99T, so having an even bigger reduction possible will allow pretty much any setup to be dialed in. I could do a 26" with just a Nexus-3, for instance. Where do you find these larger sprockets? I've seen Horstman sprockets up to 85T, but these were the "split"/two-piece variety

Yes, I'm using Matt's drive as motor mount, but as Matt points out, it is adjustable. This solved one of my chain tension issues. :) I was pleasantly surprised at how little noise there was. My Cyclone setup was noisy as hell, mainly due to the insanely small 6T motor sprocket. The chain had such a difficult time getting around that little thing that it made an aweful racket. Miles has a word-of-art for this phenomena, but I just can't seem to get it to stick to a brain cell in my '70s-raddled head. :roll: :mrgreen:

I'm going to try and do a video today. Yesterday was a bust. Too many "honey-dos". :roll:

-- Gary

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by Miles » Jul 12 2009 11:29am

GGoodrum wrote: The chain had such a difficult time getting around that little thing that it made an aweful racket. Miles has a word-of-art for this phenomena, but I just can't seem to get it to stick to a brain cell in my '70s-raddled head. :roll: :mrgreen:
:) Chordal action

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 12 2009 12:45pm

Thanks, Miles... again! :roll:

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by deecanio » Jul 12 2009 12:53pm

"honey -dos" :lol:
looking forward to some vids Gary, i agree the use of a stem was very cool.
i'll be very interested to see what you come up with for the 3220 direct drive idea, also i'd like to see the #35 fopr comparison to the 219 im using, kudos gary, must have been painstaking working in such a tight area.

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by recumpence » Jul 12 2009 1:45pm

Gary,

What are your thoughts on freewheeling capability with single stage drive?

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by Miles » Jul 12 2009 1:48pm

deecanio wrote: also i'd like to see the #35 fopr comparison to the 219 im using,
#35 sprockets are 22% less stealth, D :wink:

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 12 2009 3:05pm

deecanio wrote:"honey -dos" :lol:
looking forward to some vids Gary, i agree the use of a stem was very cool.
i'll be very interested to see what you come up with for the 3220 direct drive idea, also i'd like to see the #35 fopr comparison to the 219 im using, kudos gary, must have been painstaking working in such a tight area.

D
I have both 80T (like yours...) and 90T #219 sprockets, and a few of the tapered motor sprockets. I don't yet have the 72T #35 sprockets I ordered, but I should get them on Tuesday. Later, I'll take some pics of the motor sprockets and chains, side-by-side, to illustrate the slight differences. The sprockets, for both, look to be about twice as thick as normal bike chainrings. Frankly, both look like they'd be at home on most motorcycles (Luke's excluded of course... :roll: :mrgreen: ).

For the direct drive setup I'm thinking to start I'll try a 7-turn 3220 (kV: 97...) with a 9T motor sprocket, and a 72T on the Nexus hub. I'm still playing with how to actually mount the 72T sprocket, but I have a couple ideas. I have two versions coming, one with a 2" hole and a four-holet 2-7/8" (about 73mm...) bolt circle. It'll be close, but I might be able to get this to work with one of the Nexus cogs I have, but we'll see. What I'm using on the current setup is a 16T cog sandwiched between a 22T 64mm BCD sprocket and the 110mm BCD adapter plate. My backup plan is to use the second 72T sprocket I also ordered, which has a six-hole 5.25" (133mm...) BCD pattern. I have another adapter plate, similar to the Big Cheese version, but it is for 130mm chainrings. I might be able to make this work.

I'll have to think about how and where to mount the motor. It probably needs to go where the headset stem/jackshaft is now, which means a frametube mount. This could be as simple as a plate with a couple of U-clamps. but then there's two issues, torque-twisting, and chain tensioning. On this bike I can solve the torque problem by doing the plate in such a way so that the two clamps are oriented 90-degrees to one another, one on each tube. For tensioning, I think I can figure out how to mount one of the same single-speed chain tensioners, like I'm using on the crank chain, to the motor plate. This could solve another potential clearance problem of not having the chain hit the stays.

-- Gary

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 12 2009 3:13pm

recumpence wrote:Gary,

What are your thoughts on freewheeling capability with single stage drive?

Matt
It definitely works quite well, although it could be optimised a bit by having the FW on the output sprocket. That would keep the jackshaft from spinning. This wasn't an option on this setup because if I used a 16T FW, the chain would hit the stays. As it is, with a 34T sprocket and a 12T track cog, the chain just clears. Frankly, though, I don't think I'd notice the difference.

In a direct drive setup, I'd lose the FW altogether, but I don't think this is going to be a huge issue, as the motor cogging is not all that bad. Besides, I might want to play around with regen. :shock: :) In either case, about the only time I see myself pedaling all that much is if something happened, like the chain falling off, which would mean instant freewheeling. :)

-- Gary

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by drewjet » Jul 12 2009 3:58pm

GGoodrum wrote: I could do a 26" with just a Nexus-3, for instance. Where do you find these larger sprockets? I've seen Horstman sprockets up to 85T, but these were the "split"/two-piece variety



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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by deecanio » Jul 12 2009 4:35pm

Miles wrote:
deecanio wrote: also i'd like to see the #35 fopr comparison to the 219 im using,
#35 sprockets are 22% less stealth, D :wink:

aha, not for this bike then :)
however the dc2 may just go for broke with direct drive and a beasty motor :twisted:
i'll keep an eye on what Garys up to then choose a new bike :shock: and i said i was quittin once the kona was done :roll:

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by GGoodrum » Jul 12 2009 5:43pm

drewjet wrote:They have up to 94 teeth #35 here http://www.gokartgalaxy.com/uni-hubs_%26_vari-hubs.htm
This is perfect, thanks for the link, Drew. Miles sent me to this site before for something, so I know I'd seen it before, but it didn't come up in my Google search.

I just ordered a couple of 94T sprockets to try, which will let me match pretty much exactly the same gearing I have now. The best part is that they have versions that will work perfectly with my 16T Nexus cog "sandwich", with the 22T 64mm BCD granny gear, and the 2-1/8th" bore will fit perfectly over the end of the Nexus hub. This makes it a true, off-the-shelf, bolt-together, two sprocket solution for 3-speed hubs. :)

-- Gary

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Re: 20" Mariner w/3210-12T, a Nexus-3 hub and a 15s4p a123 pack

Post by PaulM » Jul 12 2009 5:51pm

GGoodrum wrote: Where do you find these larger sprockets? I've seen Horstman sprockets up to 85T, but these were the "split"/two-piece variety
I bought my 102T one-piece used off ebay, so it's possible they don't make them anymore, or maybe it was special order.

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