Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

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Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:05 am

Advantages of parallel drive set-ups over series (crank) drive:

- No "wasted" gear stages

- Allows the possibility of separated pedal and motor multi gearing

Types:

RH pedal LH motor:

Advantages
- Existing pedal freewheel isolates pedal drive from motor
- Can use Disk brake fixing for motor sprocket

Disadvantages
- New bi-drive hub needed for complete isolation of drives
- Difficult to use in conjunction with disk brakes

RH pedal and motor:

Advantages
- Allows the possibility of using hub gears for the pedals and motor.

Disadvantages
-
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:39 am

From: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12267&start=80

Miles wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:Does this mean the ultimate ultimate setup would be a tripple freewheeling rear hub adapter? True isolation of both drive sources from each other. Miles? got your awesome CAD skills handy? :) Maybe before having 50 of the double freewheel adapters made, you should at least considder a tripple :) There is space for it to fit onto the splines of a normal 7-9spd rear hub IMO.


Yes, this is possible, but not easy, with a standard 9 spd cassette driver. I have been giving it some thought... :wink:
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Re: Direct-drive 3220 setup with a 3-Speed Hub...

Postby gwhy! » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:42 am

The problem I can see with fitting freewheels on a rear 9speed cassette is the diameter of the cassette carrier is slightly to large for a standard freewheel to fit. somebody on this forum did ( I think ) try and tap a thread on a standard carrier but found the carrier to be do hard. I have thought about this and the only possible solution that I can think of is to machining a complete new threaded cassette carrier that fits into the hub, as some hubs do have the ability to upgrade/replace the cassette carrier. It would be cool if another solution can be found though. But to be honest I think a fixed large sprocket and a small freewheel on the same side is the ultimate setup, the cogging effect on the RC motors that I have is very, very small but it is also very easy to fit a oneway bearing to the output shaft on the motor should you want to isolate the motor when peddling. #219 pitch chain and sprockets are gert lush but I did have a problem with the small sprockets ( tapered, keyed ) but I did find a easy solution that works I also had a plan B for the small sprocket (even easier )that also works.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:55 am

Yes, threading an existing cassette driver would be tricky.

You can mill down the freewheel threads to fit the external dia. of the splines and use alternative methods to lock the freewheel.. Only some freewheels are adaptable though - some have a reduced diameter for the removal tool recesses.

Also old style hubs with threads for freewheels allow 2 single sprocket freewheels to be ganged together.

One-way bearing on the motor shaft is a good solution if you're mostly using the motor but you have drag from the overdriven chain, if you're not. It depends whether your a cyclist, I guess..........
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:43 am

Miles wrote:Also old style hubs with threads for freewheels allow 2 single sprocket freewheels to be ganged together.



This is along the lines of what I was visualizing.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:51 am

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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:04 am

So, all that's missing is a strong internally geared hub that uses a threaded freewheel attachement and we can all have right side double freewheels?

Did this just fail to get mentioned for the last zillion threads I read on this forum since becomming a member? I'm shocked something like this didn't blow-up in popularity and get stickys everywhere.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:20 am

liveforphysics wrote:So, all that's missing is a strong internally geared hub that uses a threaded freewheel attachement and we can all have right side double freewheels?
This is the only currently (soon to be) available one that comes to mind:
http://sunrace-sturmeyarcher.blogspot.c ... drive.html

Or, you could use Gary's technique/adapter to fix the first freewheel. With most hubs designed for 135 OLD you'll run out of space, though...
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Re: Direct-drive 3220 setup with a 3-Speed Hub...

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:40 am

gwhy! wrote: #219 pitch chain and sprockets are gert lush but I did have a problem with the small sprockets ( tapered, keyed ) but I did find a easy solution that works I also had a plan B for the small sprocket (even easier )that also works.

You can get #219 drive sprockets with straight (presumed) 3/4" bore here:
http://www.gokartgalaxy.com/engine_sprockets1.htm
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:27 am

RH pedal and motor:

Advantages
- Allows the possibility of using hub gears for the pedals and motor.
- Allows use of a rear disc brake

Disadvantages
- Limits number of external gears on rear wheel (I believe Miles has 5 gears?)

Also for those interested in right-side parallel-drive, consider trike hubs. Some of them come with two right-side sprockets. But one freewheels, and the other is fixed to the hub body. They are used as an intermediate jackshaft between the pedals and the rear axle. (might require adding a freewheel at the BB, or at the motor drive-sprocket)
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Direct-drive 3220 setup with a 3-Speed Hub...

Postby dontsendbubbamail » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:17 am

gwhy! wrote:The problem I can see with fitting freewheels on a rear 9speed cassette is the diameter of the cassette carrier is slightly to large for a standard freewheel to fit. somebody on this forum did ( I think ) try and tap a thread on a standard carrier but found the carrier to be do hard. works.


John Tetz removed the hardness of the cassette by heating it and letting it cool slowly. This would probably allow the threads to be created. He didn't mention if he put the hardness back.

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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby recumpence » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:18 am

The problem for many bikes with double right side drive is chain clearance. I ran into this with my PK Ripper build.

I really want multi ratio option with parallel drive. This would allow the use of lower powered motors and still get the hill climbing and pulling power with decent top speed.

Or you can just overpower the thing and not worry about ratios! :wink:

All kidding aside, though, I think 2 or 3 ratios is all that is needed.

I have run double right side, and left/right parallel drives. I like the left right setup best for ease of clearance. We just need a decent option for multi-ratios, though.......... :?

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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:23 am

I guess the options are:

- L.R. with additional multi ratio for the motor only (preferably automatic) .

- R.R. with hub gear & asymmetric wheel build.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby recumpence » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:25 am

Hey Guys,

I am looking into custom #35 sprockets (40 tooth with 1/2 inch bore and 4 set screws. Two sets of pared set screws set 90 from one another) for my KMX builds. I can also look into having #219 motor sprockets made for #219 chain if you would like. I could have them made in steel with 3/8 inch bore for Astro motors.

Miles, you could send me a CAD file for it and I can relay that to my sprocket machinist to be made if you would like.

The #35 stuff is really easy to buy, though. you can even get aluminum sprockets from Andymark.com along with sprocket hubs.

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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:28 am

Here's a freewheel on a 9 speed cassette driver:
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Freewheel-on-cassette.jpg
Freewheel-on-cassette.jpg (81.17 KiB) Viewed 5488 times
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:57 am

If they got one to slide on the shaft, they just gotta repeat the process to get two to slide on :) That would be the triple freewheel! You have an amazing gift with finding difficult to find pictures and data Miles. Very handy guy to have on this board.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:00 pm

LOL...... Find it.... I had to take it :)
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby GGoodrum » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:20 pm

There is also LR with delta-wye switching for the motor. That would give you two speeds for the motor, with a ratio change of 1.73:1. There are lots of hubs with disc mounts on the LH side, but ideally you'd want to add the sprocket in a way that lets you keep the disc. I don't have any bikes here with disc brakes, so it is a bit hard to visualize how this could work, or if it is even possible.

I also want to do a single-speed cruiser-type bike RRsetup, with a FW for the pedals, like I have on my folding bike setup, and direct drive for a delta-wye configured motor. Most of these bikes have coaster brakes and I'm having a hard time getting my head around what would happen to the brake operation, with the extra freewheel. Would it still work? There are also lots of Nexus-3 - equipped beach cruisers around here that also have coaster brakes.

Regarding Matt's comment about chain clearances, I now find this to be less of a problem than it was when the motor was also spinning the pedal chain. I had a heck of a time, because the spring-loaded tensioner I was using would unload when the motor was driving the chain, causing it to slap into the #35 motor chain. Several times this caused the bike chain to come off, the last time locking up the back wheel. With my new setup, with the freewheel in back, the chain does move when the motor is on, so problem solved. :) Also, the chains just ended up farther apart with the new setup.

Regarding use of #219 chain/sprockets, I have another idea. If we use one of the 3/4" motor sprockets, from GoKartGalaxy, there are oneway bearings available from McMaster that have 3/4" OD and can handle up to 6.5 ft-lbs, or 8.9 Nm (is that enough?). They have inside diameters of 1/2", though, so I'd have to get Bob to do 1/2" shafts for the 32 series. It is not clear to me, however, how the shaft would attach to the oneway. Press-fit, I guess? That's a pain. I think instead I'd have my guy do a custom adapter that he can press into the oneway that then has a hub with a couple of setscrews and an ID of 3/8" so it can fit the existing motors.

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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:21 pm

Ahh, ok. So it's not a mounted freewheel, it's just showing that a freewheel does indeed fit over the outside of a 9spd cassette driver. That is still fantastic, as it shows a very thin female spline to threaded adapter could me made to enable a pair of freewheels to mount. I would assume that wouldn't be too difficult of a part to draw in CAD, but it could be a lot more difficult part to machine.

Perhaps a more simple part would be one that doesn't adapt between spline made for the cassette, and a pair of freewheels, but rather replace the whole cassette driver with a part of correct diameter and correct mounting threads to hold a pair of freewheels. It would likely limit the fitment to only a single brand, or even a single model of a single brand of hub, but if good choices were made as to what hub they are to fit, I think it could be a heck of a handy part to have :)
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby GGoodrum » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:23 pm

Miles wrote:LOL...... Find it.... I had to take it :)


Is this for real, or do you also possess mad Photoshop skills as well?? :roll: :mrgreen:
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby GGoodrum » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:26 pm

Okay, so assuming you could get two freewheels on a standard 9-speed cassette, it seems to me you'd be down to a singlespeed for the pedals and the motor, right? The problem is you can't fit a 9-speed cassette on the end of a multi-speed hub.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:26 pm

GGoodrum wrote:Regarding use of #219 chain/sprockets, I have another idea. If we use one of the 3/4" motor sprockets, from GoKartGalaxy, there are oneway bearings available from McMaster that have 3/4" OD and can handle up to 6.5 ft-lbs, or 8.9 Nm (is that enough?). They have inside diameters of 1/2", though, so I'd have to get Bob to do 1/2" shafts for the 32 series. It is not clear to me, however, how the shaft would attach to the oneway. Press-fit, I guess? That's a pain. I think instead I'd have my guy do a custom adapter that he can press into the oneway that then has a hub with a couple of setscrews and an ID of 3/8" so it can fit the existing motors.
-- Gary


What kind of one-ways? The roller type don't usually have an inner ring - in this case, the motor shaft would serve this purpose, so no fixing is necessary. You'd need to get the type with integral support bearings, though.
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby Miles » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:28 pm

GGoodrum wrote:
Miles wrote:LOL...... Find it.... I had to take it :)


Is this for real, or do you also possess mad Photoshop skills as well?? :roll: :mrgreen:


Do it in PhotoShop :idea: I should have thought of that, would have been a lot easier :mrgreen:
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby GGoodrum » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:30 pm

Miles wrote:What kind of one-ways? The roller type don't usually have an inner ring - in this case, the motor shaft would serve this purpose, so no fixing is necessary. You'd need to get the type with integral support bearings, though.


Ah, right. :oops:

Here's the one I was looking at: http://www.mcmaster.com/#2489k31/=3aukf9
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Re: Considerations on parallel drive set-ups

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:36 pm

GGoodrum wrote:There is also LR with delta-wye switching for the motor. That would give you two speeds for the motor, with a ratio change of 1.73:1. There are lots of hubs with disc mounts on the LH side, but ideally you'd want to add the sprocket in a way that lets you keep the disc. I don't have any bikes here with disc brakes, so it is a bit hard to visualize how this could work, or if it is even possible.

I also want to do a single-speed cruiser-type bike RRsetup, with a FW for the pedals, like I have on my folding bike setup, and direct drive for a delta-wye configured motor. Most of these bikes have coaster brakes and I'm having a hard time getting my head around what would happen to the brake operation, with the extra freewheel. Would it still work? Nope. I personally don't see that as a loss.There are also lots of Nexus-3 - equipped beach cruisers around here that also have coaster brakes.

Regarding Matt's comment about chain clearances, I now find this to be less of a problem than it was when the motor was also spinning the pedal chain. I had a heck of a time, because the spring-loaded tensioner I was using would unload when the motor was driving the chain, causing it to slap into the #35 motor chain. Several times this caused the bike chain to come off, the last time locking up the back wheel. With my new setup, with the freewheel in back, the chain does move when the motor is on, so problem solved. :) Also, the chains just ended up farther apart with the new setup. Anything that eliminates the need for spinning another chain is a good thing from a safety and reliability perspective. The freewheeling front cranks seems like a very band-aid type solution IMO.

Regarding use of #219 chain/sprockets, I have another idea. If we use one of the 3/4" motor sprockets, from GoKartGalaxy, there are oneway bearings available from McMaster that have 3/4" OD and can handle up to 6.5 ft-lbs, or 8.9 Nm (is that enough?). They have inside diameters of 1/2", though, so I'd have to get Bob to do 1/2" shafts for the 32 series. It is not clear to me, however, how the shaft would attach to the oneway. Press-fit, I guess? One-way's normally just freely slide over a shaft like a set of needle bearings. Each needle is has an oval shaped cross section and a tiny spring steel band with slots to act as a spring for each needle sits sandwiched between the cage for the needles. When a tiny amount of friction tries to go backwards, they decrease the size as the oval needles rotate backwards, as the size decreases, it eventually seizes to the shaft, gripping, until forward motion releases everything. Because the oval needles can't spin, they do not work as a bearing at all, so you need dual bearings to support the 1-way if you wish it to not quickly wear out.That's a pain. I think instead I'd have my guy do a custom adapter that he can press into the oneway that then has a hub with a couple of setscrews and an ID of 3/8" so it can fit the existing motors. The needle 1-ways all work off friction from shrinking the ID. Even if it has 10 times the torque rating of the motor, I still find them to be a short lived band-aid type fix. I see them as designing in an Achilles heal in a system that could otherwise be very reliable. In my limited personal experience with them in everything from auto-trannys to RC cars, they've always been another wear part to fail in a system. Just my $0.02

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