Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

[liveforphysics]

Be a slight delay on the controller while Luke appreciates some wiminez in Costa Ricca hehee...


KiM

I would say, "depreciates" is a better fit.

[AussieJester]

im grabbing another two of the new style with larger skirted bearings

Skirt motors huh ?

hehehe... got you all excited didnt it ... didnt it ..it did dint it..admit it... admit... ADMIIIIIIIIIIT

I haven't had issues with the bearings in tis one but i haven't done alot of miles either, i have no intentions in changing
these out UNLESS when i get the new version Turnigy and its a possibilty to convert the older style with some ''frock' bearings ;-P
then it will be off to my mates work Advanced Vehicle Services to use the lathe

BWAHAHAHA Luke...your a worry mate ....poor Costa Riccian wiminez won't know what hit them...repeatedly...literally hehehe

KiM

[AussieJester]

Better late than never in this case it was 14 days but hey its here and
by the lookz they is out of stock now too...

IMG_4663.jpg (44.98 KiB) Viewed 1966 times

Popped him on the waiting rim, all nice and trued now tiz...

IMG_4664.jpg (53.99 KiB) Viewed 1966 times

Not that it matters now as i can't use it, the bike is once again
imobile... As a few people already know the battery situation
turned to shit. I picked up a Battery Medic from Hong Kong
FORU WEEKS AGO, finially got it this week only to find
every single one of my lipo packs is f*cked yup blown
near 500 bucks of lipos in under a month. Why? No fuckin idea
best guess is one or two cells dropped the rest took up the slack,
one bright side to it all i guess is the ruggedness of the Turnigy cell
some cells read as high as FIVE VOLTS!!! those that know lipo jnow thats
more than dangerous, wasn;t a few cells either at least one in every pack
was this high!!! Lowest was around 4.45v-->

IMG_4666.jpg (61.46 KiB) Viewed 1966 times

IMG_4667.jpg (52 KiB) Viewed 1967 times

Tiz what you get for not using ANY form of cell level
monitoring, i knew the risk but wanted to ride the bike...

I am undecided what I will be doing now, GGoodrums BMS
still isn't available and i dont think i could stand blowing another 500
bucks worth of Lipos just yet, would definitely be the end of e-bikes for me &
that 1972 350chev Jaguar I have wanted for so long would be the new money pit ...
Honestly, I've spent a small fortune on these e-bikes and god knows how many hours
for very little reward for the $$$ i have spent. Anywayz...shall push on...for now...

Only real other option i can consider than Lipo is Cell_Mans A123 prismatic cells,
I have two issues with the A123s for my particular use on this bike only...the battery
enclosure will fit only 15 cells across not 16 like i would like...a new enclosure
is neither here nor there though i can make another have enough glass
and foam to do it again ..My Real concern is the charging of these cells in a manner
that i am happy with for this particular bike only. I don't want to mess with a BMS
on the pack, its just another thing that can leave me stranded on the side of the road
when it fries, and it will fry its just how things go with me and electronics ^^ scroll
up for evidence of that LOL... RC Charger...only do 6s the best case scenario is i make 8s2p
pack...so no go there as far as i can see...Paul/Lukes idea of individual balance chargers
is all im really left with (that i know of) Would require 16 individual chargers again
im just not too keen on this setup just seems so ghetto to me and what if
i want to gotto my Bros for example? need to charge when i get there
now its a case of popping one meanwell psu in a back pack, how would 16 chargers
go ? I dunno fellas... think i will give it all a miss for the time being strip
the bike down and get started on the prep/paint/chroming and decide when its
near done what i will do for batteries...Right now unless i can come up with a charging
setup that is suitable for this particular bike it will be Lipos again im
afraid to say, but this time at least i have the Battery Medic so i can keep an eye
on the cells and balance/discharge them when required, hopefully :: fingers crossed:: by
then Gary might also have the BMS finished ... I'll wait
for Luke to finish 'depreciating' the Costa Riccian wiminez then have a chat to him
and get his take on the situation...

Ciao for now...more updates of bling soon to come

KiM

p.s 8x22v 5000mah LIPO FIRE video too follow also...just need to wait till Matt.P is free for an hour or two
in case it gets out of hand..he's a fireman so his expertise will come in handy hehehe Be the BEST lipo
fire ever seen though wouldnt it EIGHT packs in parallel pumping 50volts into them BOOM...

[cell_man]

Hi Kim,

you could always just go with a small BMS and bypass it for the discharge, just using it for charging. That way you would still have the balance function (granted they don't have much balance current) but it would also have the over voltage protection that will disconnect the charger if any cell hits the HVC (typically 3.9V) and not reconnect until it has dropped to 3.8V. If the cells are fairly well balanced it shouldn't hit the HVC anyway. You could then charge with your meanwell, but the meanwell doesn't limit the current as it approaches the set voltage like a typical charger would, giving the cells more of a chance to balance.

It seems strange that so many cells could have been overcharged. I wouldn't go burning them just yet. You might be able to salvage some/most of them and get them built into a new pack/packs. If they're still holding a charge and they are discharging ok they can't be that bad.

[AussieJester]

It seems strange that so many cells could have been overcharged. I wouldn't go burning them just yet.

I have cut all packs open EVERY CELL is puffed mate everyone not a single cell is still flat, if they dont read 0.0v which they are ALL OVER 4.45 there would be a dozen that are on 5v...They are not usueable or salvageable..

As we spoke about im not really keen on a BMS at all BUT if i use one its hooked up full time or not at all...

KiM

EDIT: any word on what site you can access for videos mate?

[gwhy!]

That is a real bummer about your lipo's AJ . But on a positive side If you are going to have controlled lipo fires with them what might be good to do ( all for the sake of progress and safety ) see what happens if one is put into a tight fitting sealed metal/ali box with just say a 10mm vent hole. Im sure lots of people on this forum would love to see what happens when these thing go up when in a sealed box, its the one thing that concerns me and im sure Matt would be intrested also.

[cell_man]

Hi Kim,

all I'm suggesting is that the BMS be hooked in but the feed to the controller is direct from the pack so it doesn't go through the BMS as it normally would. The BMS would therefore balance the pack during charging but it could not effect the pack during discharging. Used this way you could just use a simple charger like the meanwell but it would be worthwhile to have some form of cell monitoring for the discharge to ensure none of the cells are hitting the LVC. Used this way the BMS is not interfering with the discharge and there are no high currents passing through it. I can't see how it could crap out on the road and leave you stranded and as it's only having to deal with charging it isn't being put under any strain.

With this arrangement I think it would also be possible to have 2 charging options. The simple meanwell through the BMS or directly charging each individual cell with a 3.65V PSU as I was suggesting. The second suggestion is just something I've started to look at as it seems to be quite a cost effective option and suits my requirements. I also think it is worthwhile for big battery packs but maybe more trouble than it's worth for a smaller pack. I mean a 16 channel balance charger with 25A for roughly 160USD is pretty good value IMO. That's about 1500W of charging and you no longer need a BMS for the charging or have to worry about balancing the cells every few cycles. Every time you plug it in the cells are balanced perfectly and in the quickest time. No need to reduce the current as it approaches the CV stage as you do with a typical bulk charger, it just maintains the full current till it hits whatever voltage you've set it too and will then sit there till the current drops off. I wouldn't worry about this balance charger for now, it really needs a few people to look at it and make sure it's not gonna have any unforseen issues. You could just go with a simple low cost BMS for now for the charging and when the Ggoodrum BMS becomes available you could change to that and sell this BMS. The smaller BMS boards I have here are pretty cheap.

Regarding the videos, maybe just a link to the youtube page below the embedded video should be ok (I'm assuming you've embedded the youtube video). I'm sure TOR can sort the youtube site but I can't see any embedded videos.

[AussieJester]

GWhy...yup real pisser, i guess I could blow a few up in different containers..off hand can't think of anything like what you suggested that i would want to destroy though, maybe ill find something curbside i can use! i have one steel enclosure but its thin definitely no ali boxes though...Anything with a vent holewould be fine, Matt.S CNC boxes wouldnt be a problem at all if the lipos crapped out IMO.

Regarding the videos, maybe just a link to the youtube page below the embedded video should be ok (I'm assuming you've embedded the youtube video). I'm sure TOR can sort the youtube site but I can't see any embedded videos.

... Here are the urls for you buddy lemme know if these work i'm happy to organise them elsewhere so you can checkz them out no bother at all

Ride filmed by mate on side of road

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWpII8IzRFo

Ride filmed by mate from side of road with wheelchair in tow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ycXp3zXsiY

Onboard ride video on extend pole out back of bike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxpiCK9yhhQ

KiM

[Kepler]

It seems strange that so many cells could have been overcharged. I wouldn't go burning them just yet.

I have cut all packs open EVERY CELL is puffed mate everyone not a single cell is still flat, if they dont read 0.0v which they are ALL OVER 4.45 there would be a dozen that are on 5v...They are not usueable or salvageable..

Even if the cell is puffed a bit, doesnt mean its all over for the cell. If it was me, I would be building all cells still holding charge back into 6S packs. I would then do a gentle discharge to around 50% discharge on all cells followed by a monitored slow recharge. I think you might be supprized how many cells you recover.

[cell_man]

It seems strange that so many cells could have been overcharged. I wouldn't go burning them just yet.

I have cut all packs open EVERY CELL is puffed mate everyone not a single cell is still flat, if they dont read 0.0v which they are ALL OVER 4.45 there would be a dozen that are on 5v...They are not usueable or salvageable..

Even if the cell is puffed a bit, doesnt mean its all over for the cell. If it was me, I would be building all cells still holding charge back into 6S packs. I would then do a gentle discharge to around 50% discharge on all cells followed by a monitored slow recharge. I think you might be supprized how many cells you recover.

It definitely can't hurt to try I reckon. No point righting them off just yet.

[AussieJester]

Even if the cell is puffed a bit, doesnt mean its all over for the cell. If it was me, I would be building all cells still holding charge back into 6S packs. I would then do a gentle discharge to around 50% discharge on all cells followed by a monitored slow recharge. I think you might be supprized how many cells you recover.

OK..one more time ...ALL of the cells are puffed not a little ALOT they are to the point i dont know why they havent burst into flames whilst charging, probaly the kevlar tape was holding them together either way for the last time, i am not about to build cells from puffed cells put them in a fiberglass container i sit above and use them. /end of discussion

KiM

[recumpence]

The only way cells become overcharged is to, well, overcharge them. So, your charger is to blame. Thar truely SUCKS! Man, I feel for you, big time!

I agree with you AJ, even if you could salvage some cells, when they are puffed, they are puffed. If you got a few to come back to life again, their life is SEVERELY degraded. That stinks so bad. I have been through this too. Just not with so many cells at the same time.

The best 12S charger I have found is the Hyperion EOS 1210i. It is a discontinued charger, but they are still available new in the box on e-Bay for $90 or so (it is a $250 charger retail). I would go that route. A BMS is good, but, honestly, a decent ballancer is all that is really needed. You can ballance them every dozen charges or so. If you stay above 30% state of charge, the cells will stay in ballance pretty good. If you stay up near 50% state of charge, minimum, they pretty much never go out of ballance. But, who wants that much capacity unused?

Anyway, I feel for you, Buddy!

Matt

[AussieJester]

Thanks Matt appreciate the support...Lipos aren't something to mess with, if especially when one is sitting ontop of them, in a cheap model i would say go for it no worries not on an ebike when theres this many involved... I actually had a Hyperion when i was flying rc helis Matt awesome chargers cost me a packet at the time to. Im unsure how you have your lipos configured, i'm guessing paralleling them for charge and reconfiguring them for series/parallel to discharge? If not and you have a complete plug and play setup with no reconfiguring of packs for charging/discharge would be VERY interested in replicating it so a RC Charger can be used?

Reason i like the setup i have with Garys boards and the meanwel PSU is the the ability to bulk charge my pack in one hit without disconnecting a single wire, obviously hasn't worked this time round but thats user error, i had no means to keep an eye on the cells due to Hobby City being out of stock and back ordering the Battery Medic on me when i purchased it there was stock but due to my damn paypal delays the last were snapped up before my payment cleared, I'm 99% confident if i had the means to monitor the packs this wouldn't have happened. I will be even more confident when i get my hands on one of Mr GGoodrums BMS when they are ready, i'll still be recommending lipos along with Cell_Mans A123s hasn't affected my opinion of lipos, they are still the best battery on the market if treated correctly, i haven't and paid the consequence for it...live and learn i guess...


KiM

[recumpence]

What I do is parrallel all packs together when I receive them. I leave tham that way for a few hours to ballance all complete 6S packs together. Then I use a ballancer on each pack to make sure the cells are ballanced individually. Then I disconnect them and series all packs together. Once that is done, I just plug and play. To recharge, I just plug in my 12S charger and hit start. I do not need to reconfigure packs between runs.

I have 16 packs here that I need to ballance before setting them all up. Hopefully they all test fine. I have not had any DOA packs from Hobby City yet. But, I have had some dented ones.

Matt

[deecanio]

HI Kim,

major downer, bike was running so sweetly too
have you asked Andy to make you a bms at all??? i may be talking ass (probable) but he made mine and so far so good, mine just sits in the box with the charger psu and all works fine, i have a small LVC board with monitors each cell during use but im not sure if lipo works the same.
Either way bud im really sorry to hear about your packs, ill be totally honest lipo that gets puffed gives me the shits this is why i wont upgrade from A123's.




D

[rkosiorek]

really sucks about the batteries. i know what it feels like to have a sizeable investment in batteries go up in smoke.

how about 48V 10Ah worth of prismatic Thunder Sky lipos? they cost me a wack of money. they were loosely mounted inside of a plastic tool box. for my tests i had them bungeed to the rear rack of an old comfort/hybrid with 700c wheels.

after a couple of dozen charge/discharge cycles they went poof. no reason or explanation i could see. one minute i'm riding home, the next i smell some funny burning plastic. i stopped in an empty lot next to the house i was renting. smoke was coming out of the toolbox. i kicked it off of the bike and backed away a couple of yards. it then really started to burn. the flames were not very large. but it did produce a column of dense black, foul smelling smoke. the quantity of smoke was very impressive. it rose in a nice column straight up into the air. the cells burned vigorously for 30 seconds or less but vented the smoke in a nice jet. then they burned more slowly. the fire department showed up. they discovered that they didn't have anything on the truck adequate to extinguish a lithium fire. they called it large chemical fire. they had to call the firehouse for someone to bring out some specialised equipment. fortunatetly the lot was mostly dirt and gravel so there was no possibility of the fire spreading.

once the fire was out an argument started as to whether it was a LARGE or SMALL chemical fire. i was willing to settle for MEDIUM. the fire guys wanted LARGE to cover their asses to why they were unprepared to deal with it. in the meantime drawn by the smoke column the local gendarmes and a reporter from the local newspaper made an appearance. another discussion started with the cops. i was feeling that the local fire department was partially to blame for the spectacle by not having the proper equipment on board the first truck and put it out quickly. she (the cop) was feeling i was treating her fireman/boyfriend unfaily. a local reporter was watching. words were exchanged, genealogy discussed, i was publiclly handcuffed, detained and whisked off to the local gaol for questioning as a person of interest. something about suspicion of building and detonating an "Incediary device" i think the final straw was when i pointed out how little she knew. that more accuratetly it was "deflagration" and not "detonation". did not help that her boyfriend/fireman agreed with me. likely both of us were equaly in the shit by then.

i was interviewed and released after a couple of hours cool off. no charges were ever filed. over the next few days i had a couple of home visits from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP or Mounties - our version of the FBI) and Canadian Security Inteligence Service (CSIS - our version of homeland security and CIA rolled into one). the first visit was to verify that i really was not a terrorist. the others were kinda weird. it was as if they were trying fo figure out if someone could really build an incendiary using lipos. they never shared their conclusions with me.

this was in the summer of 2002. everyone was paranoid so soon after 911. i can sort of excuse them. but it was the third time that year i had some trouble. there was a "Land Mine" incident - i had imported round metalic objects with a "Pin" and wires sticking out. but i called them "Hub Motors" and the "Gun Running" incident - i was overheard by a nosy, vindictive neighbor at a Denny's restaurant discussing the purchase of rocket launchers and as many rockets as you can carry. deliberatetly or otherwise they missed the part about my discussing the latest "Mech Warrior Game". but i guess to be safe they had to check out all of these suspicious incidents.

enough of the saturday morning funnies. it's snowing again, coffee just finished brewing and i got a whole bunch of machining to do on my own project.

rick

[recumpence]

Funny about the fire department. They are uneducated on lithium, apparently. Plain water puts out lithium better than anything else I know of. If course that may not apply to every lithium chemistry, though.

Matt

[j3tch1u]

really sucks about the batteries. i know what it feels like to have a sizeable investment in batteries go up in smoke.
rick

thanks for sharing that shocking tale--i am almost wishing there was a sequel

i also think that fireman had some fires of his own to put out that night

[rkosiorek]

Funny about the fire department. They are uneducated on lithium, apparently. Plain water puts out lithium better than anything else I know of. If course that may not apply to every lithium chemistry, though.

Matt

lithium reacts with water. remember high school chemistry. it was the metal stored in a heavy oil and when a small piece is exposed to water it bursts into flame. once the cels rupture they may no longer use water to put out the fire. if they do use water it would only be to cool down the suroundings to prevent the fire from spreading and wait for it to burn out. the fumes produced are very toxic and caustic. with a large enough fire they would need full sealed protective gear including an oxygen tank

to put it out they use a Lith-X extinguisher or powdered copper.

simple booby trap - take a small piece of lithium and i do mean small. like about the size of a peppercorn. coat with a heavy grease while it is still in the oil bath. make a small hole in one of those hanging toilet bowl cleaners coat the hole with some more grease. insert lithium pellet carefully. install in toilet. 4 or 5 flushes down the road you either get an exploading toilet bowl cleaner or a worst a smoking one.

didn't you ever go to college and make enemies with a nerd?

rick

[Kepler]

Even if the cell is puffed a bit, doesnt mean its all over for the cell. If it was me, I would be building all cells still holding charge back into 6S packs. I would then do a gentle discharge to around 50% discharge on all cells followed by a monitored slow recharge. I think you might be supprized how many cells you recover.

OK..one more time ...ALL of the cells are puffed not a little ALOT they are to the point i dont know why they havent burst into flames whilst charging, probaly the kevlar tape was holding them together either way for the last time, i am not about to build cells from puffed cells put them in a fiberglass container i sit above and use them. /end of discussion

KiM

Why such a hostile responce Jester? I was just trying to help out. My bad for commenting. What would I know anyway

[enoob]

Even if the cell is puffed a bit, doesnt mean its all over for the cell. If it was me, I would be building all cells still holding charge back into 6S packs. I would then do a gentle discharge to around 50% discharge on all cells followed by a monitored slow recharge. I think you might be supprized how many cells you recover.

OK..one more time ...ALL of the cells are puffed not a little ALOT they are to the point i dont know why they havent burst into flames whilst charging, probaly the kevlar tape was holding them together either way for the last time, i am not about to build cells from puffed cells put them in a fiberglass container i sit above and use them. /end of discussion

KiM

Why such a hostile responce Jester? I was just trying to help out. My bad for commenting. What would I know anyway

lol . for an aussie thats not hostile thats just being clear. now if hed thrown a "wiminez" comment in there specifically concerning your mother now that would have been hostile.

i think he just pissed cause lots of $ is gone to shite on the bench . nothing worse than that, i still say flog em to some dude on ebay AJ

[AussieJester]

HI Kim,

major downer, bike was running so sweetly too

D

Yeah tiz a bit i guess, but gives me a good excuse to rip it apart and paint it now, just a minor set back Deec least i know the bike goes like a shower of shit so i have something to look forward to when she finished

really sucks about the batteries. i know what it feels like to have a sizeable investment in batteries go up in smoke.

Yeah but hey, it could of been worse much worse, they could of gone off when i was charging and i been charging them in my garage where i have all my pc gear big tvs and lounges not in my workshop so it would of been a case of a fire i couldn't put out so i would of rolled the bike out into the workshop and watched it destroy the box, the esc, turnigy meter, wiring, actuator the interface and likely the motor...they were relativity cheap too ~450 bucks for batteries aint big dollars really if it was a 1500 dollar pack i wouldnt be so happy...only money nobody was hurt

Funny about the fire department. They are uneducated on lithium, apparently. Plain water puts out lithium better than anything else I know of. If course that may not apply to every lithium chemistry, though.

Matt

I'll ask your Australian "look-a-like" Matt.P if the Aussie fire brigade get educated on lithium fires here or not Matt.S..... Shall report back if we dont hear from the man here

didn't you ever go to college and make enemies with a nerd?

rick

hehe yes... yes i did, but they never retaliated
Reminds me of a story, one of the nerds in the grade above me tried to steal some gear from the chem lab, i forget now the exact compound it was suffice to say it burst into flames when immediately water touches it, this douche put a lump of it in his trouser pocket on a summers day, well, took about 5 minutes for the sweat on his leg to set this stuff off burnt a HUGE hole in his leg, this was a A+ student think he would of known better :-S

i still say flog em to some dude on ebay AJ

Doing up the ad now DON'T by the 8 22v 5000mah premo quality used once as new Turnigy packs for sale by AussieJester_Enterprises on ebay enoob forward the ad to...you know who hehehe

Cheers fellas...i plan to start work on the bike tomorrow so i'll have some pics of work as the 'prettification' process unfolds

KiM

[Grinhill]

Sorry to hear about your Lipo setback, mate, I remember what a struggle it was for you to get the buggers in the first place.

I was looking at your pile of stuff from the kerbside pickup and thought of something to keep you busy while the cruiser is being painted.

One of those weight benches looks like a ready-made tadpole trike frame. Whack the bmx wheels on the front (no steering, just for 1/4 miles!!!) a few minutes of welding, grab a can of yellow spray paint and you'd have something running before that other bloke, what's his name again, reclumsy or something...

[AussieJester]

HAHA yes i saw that right away myself, if i do a tadpole
though i would opt for thicker wall thickness than the bench has
i been using it for leg extensions to strengthen the legs a lil
actually, I have some more exercise equipment i was
to use as a frame jig along with some other scrap metal
with this bench i could make one flash one frame jig
though!! Thanks to the lipo fiasco though the TIG wleder purchase is going to be delayed so no new frames just yet i would like TIG the next one...

KiM

[1000w]

Hey Kim tried to call you on Friday, bummer about the Lipos.
Will be in touch soon.

Funny about the fire department. They are uneducated on lithium, apparently. Plain water puts out lithium better than anything else I know of. If course that may not apply to every lithium chemistry, though.

Matt

lithium reacts with water. remember high school chemistry. it was the metal stored in a heavy oil and when a small piece is exposed to water it bursts into flame. once the cels rupture they may no longer use water to put out the fire. if they do use water it would only be to cool down the suroundings to prevent the fire from spreading and wait for it to burn out. the fumes produced are very toxic and caustic. with a large enough fire they would need full sealed protective gear including an oxygen tank

to put it out they use a Lith-X extinguisher or powdered copper.

simple booby trap - take a small piece of lithium and i do mean small. like about the size of a peppercorn. coat with a heavy grease while it is still in the oil bath. make a small hole in one of those hanging toilet bowl cleaners coat the hole with some more grease. insert lithium pellet carefully. install in toilet. 4 or 5 flushes down the road you either get an exploading toilet bowl cleaner or a worst a smoking one.

didn't you ever go to college and make enemies with a nerd?

rick

Lithium is fine with water, the element you are thinking of is sodium.

Cheers,
Matt.P.