Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Gregory   100 kW

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by Gregory » Apr 01 2010 7:30pm

If you're concerned about heat inside the can, you may need to use flexible fibreglass braid slipped over the wire and heatshrink.

Both jaycarand Altronics carry it.


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 01 2010 7:58pm

Gregory wrote:If you're concerned about heat inside the can, you may need to use flexible fibreglass braid slipped over the wire and heatshrink.

AussieJester wrote: Quite possibly as i also want to sleeve all the wiring starting at the halls, will protect the wires from any heat
over extended periods.
I already have the sleeving Gregory :-)

Cheers for the links though never spotted it at JayCar, never looked for it there either though haha...
I dont think it will be an issue TBH, just a precautionary thing really, as mentioned the motor has only ever got hot
once when Matt.P rode it for the very first time when it was stuck in 3rd gear and unable to use max throttle while riding on the hills
due to a couple of bolts on the reduction drive not being tightened, putting up hills in high
gears 1/4 throttle isn't the best for Outrunners or any lecky motor for that matter, they like to rev.

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 03 2010 6:42pm

liveforphysics wrote:
RC motor builds are f*ckin awesome, and definately have there place.
I gotta admit though, the silence of Johns bikes was something that now kinda bugs me about my own bike, which didn't seem so loud before, but now it seems kinda like a jingly buzzy thing when I'm trying to snake through a bike-path.
Luke...the rear end of your ride reminds me of one of those saws at the saw mill, with
the chain wrapped around the cog and two motors it must be boody loud, seriously
mate, give a belt a shot then all you get is the L337 sound of the outrunners
and near zero 'chain/cog' noise, when i get mine powered up ill kick it up on the stand
and rev it fully with camera mic next to the drive system hopefully it will relay
well the level of noise it makes, compared to a chain setup i used on the trike
it is silent. Matt.P's ride with the cyclone belt IS silent, honetly the lowdest thing on his
bike is the tic tiic tic of the Eno clicking when he rolls. They are harder to setup
than chains but IMHO superior for on road use on lower to mid
powered setups simply because of the absence of chain and gear noise. As
you know im all for loud but it must be a 'nice' loud v8 or v-twin at full
noise, NOT clattering chains haha..

KiM

p.s i have edited my posts on previous page...apologies to John also.
I have PMed YPedal MaN ans asked if he would delete all the posts on this page (formerly page 62)and the previous page relevant to the 'discussion' between John in Cr and myself.

p.s.s John, this doesn't mean i am going to take it easy on your buddy...still gunna kick your ass when the bikes up and running ..or try damn hard to anywayz :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

EDIT: YPedal MaN waved his magic moderator 'wand' (thanks again mate :-) ) the previous misunderstanding is now water under the bridge ancient history...moving on :-)
Last edited by AussieJester on Apr 03 2010 8:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 03 2010 8:59pm

hehee cheers mate :-)

I have been 'playing' with a few, 3 actually, of the 8 lipo
packs i took to 5v and puffed. After seeing Lukes extremely informative battery destruction thread, and concluding lipos aren't what they
used to be ~4-5 years ago. Lithium Polymer have definitely
improved 100% in the area of tolerances to over charging.
This doesn't mean we should start getting complacent
about the care and handling of these puppies, they still have the ability to bite you, but we know now
with Turnigy cells anywayz) that the boundary levels of past are now
not so 'restrictive,' the Lipo cell is much more tolerant to over and under dis/charging.
At this point in time we seem to know over charging past 5v
is required to produce fireworks.

So...With this new 'wisdom' on board i have managed to get 3 packs from the 8
in a state where i can start to test their ability to hold a charge and stay in balance.
These were the only packs that didn't have multiple 0v cells in them, these packs howver
didn't have a cell voltage under ~4.5-7v most were topping 5v or close to it
and EXTREMELY puffed.
When new, these Turnigys/Zippy packs are extremely good at remaining balanced if you dont
discharge them too far, Hyena mentioned he has never needed to balance
one of his packs past the initial building stage as they have remained in balance since.

The 3 packs i salvaged i took to with a knife, compressing the pack in a bench vice between too
pieces of MDF i made a small slit on the edge of the individual cells seam to
release the gassess that caused the puffing, once all were 'de'-puffed
i increased the pressure on the packs slightly, I then noticed a slight increase in cell
voltage on the Battery Medic likley due to decreasing the ir of the cell?
and then I dolloped hot glue over the slit, the 'over-hang' of the cells seam was
then folded over the slit/hotglue to complete what should IMHO be a tight long lasting seal.
I then made 4 wraps around the cell using kevlar packing tape, this stuff is oober strong
and will keep nice pressure on the pack.
IMG_4915.jpg
IMG_4915.jpg (68.06 KiB) Viewed 1604 times
Unfortunately camera batteries were flat so i didn't photo document the de-puffing
process. The packs in picture are all now in the 3.7v area the battery medic is the only method i have
other than the bike to discharge the packs, no incandescent light bulbs or old motors
to use etc :-( So it has taken since Friday to get the 3 packs discharged
i am now in the process of balancing these cells to 3.70v. Why 3.70v i hear
some of your are wondering, simple, 3.70 was the lowest cell on the newly purchases lipo packs
so i have balanced all those to that state of charge. As i only have the meanwell PSU as a charger, i will be
bulk charging all the packs in one hit. I am actually heading to computronics on Tuesday (Easter long weekend)
and i shall pick up another 24v charger to series with the 48v i have so i can pump out
66v, in fact ~74v (for memory) and run a 66v setup. I have another 2 packs from HK sitting at
Australia Post Since Thursday so hopefully come Tuesday ill see those also. So i shall have 9 packs
which will be run in 18s 3p setup or 66v 15ah. How well the de-puffed packs will
remain in balance, accept charge and hold it and for how long and much life span has been
reduced due to the over charging etc is something only time will tell. I will
use the 3 packs in parallel with individual balance taps 'free' so i can monitor each individual cell
for the first dozen or so cycles, when i am happy (if they) remain in balance etc
at this point i can parallel the taps up and monitor the entire pack with the battery medic, this
will give me a read out of the 6 cells, in actual fact though obviously the reading we will get is
of 3 parallel cells being reported as one individual cell by the battery medic.

Shall report back on how things go, due to the time consuming discharging and balancing i haven't
been able to make up the packs i think this will happen Monday, again depending on the speed of the balancing.

ciao for now...

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 03 2010 9:17pm

I think you've done a great job with the LiPo repair!

As far as applying pressure to them, I found that I couldn't apply enough pressure to the cells to cause a problem, even smashing them in a massive vise, and tightening the vise with a sledge hammer. This tells me I think we can safely supply all the mechanical pressure we want to the cells to keep the distance between the layers as close as possible for maximum performance, or in this case, restoreing proper performance after a puff incident.
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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 03 2010 9:40pm

liveforphysics wrote:I think you've done a great job with the LiPo repair!
Cheers Luke, the real test obviously will be the high discharging of them and seeing if
they 'behave' as they should and for how long. The life span
of the 'de' puffed cells has obviously been dramatically reduced by how much, again, time
will tell. At the very least i hope i will get use out of them long enough
for me to buy replacements. Anything on top of that will be a bonus IMO.
I will be keeping a VERY close eye on them, dropping a cell to 0v is what
caused the initial loss of the 8 packs ;-S I may even "do a Hyena" (no not by a frock and start wearing dresses) :mrgreen:
Charge with the 24v Meanwells which would involve taking them out of series config with the other 6 series/parallel packs and charge them
up using the 24v Meanwell...If a cell was to drop and i miss it it would only mean
the loss of the 3 packs not the complete 9...

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 03 2010 10:15pm

This will sound crazy, but after cutting apart a lot of cells and looking at all the layers closely, I think perhaps the only thing you lose when a cell puffs is a bit of the solvent soaked into the seperator layers. This would of course decrease the ability for ions to transfer between plates in the cells, because the solvent is like the road they travel on in there, but I think it would be pretty simple to inject a bit more solvent into a pack and put a dab of glue over the injection point, and perhaps re-gain full performance.

When they are all bundled up in there, they seem like kinda a magic pouch filled with mystery, but after dicking around with so many of them now, they don't really seem that complex anymore. I think we can do a lot more with them than we first thought, and you're actually leading the way on this KiM with your de-puffing and compression experiments. :)

I will try and find out if I can get ahold of a little bottle of whatever solvent they use. ;)
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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 03 2010 10:29pm

Anode: carbon–Lix → C + xLi+ + xe−
Separator: Li+ conduction
Cathode: Li1−xCoO2 + xLi+ + xe− → LiCoO2


It would be a bitch to make, and the seperator layer is somehow got some voodoo magic that only lets Li-ions pass through it, but understanding the function of the parts is pretty simple.



I think this is the solvent they use, and I think perhaps if you got a little bottle of it, you would be able to put the needed liquid back into the cells that was lost in the conversion to vapor when it puffed.

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/produ ... 23576&pfx=
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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by Jeremy Harris » Apr 04 2010 4:10am

If you could get hold of the right solvent, then I think the simplest way to make a repair might be with a hypodermic syringe and small needle. The syringe could be used to suck out the excess vapour, and knowing the temperature and volume of the vapour extracted, the right amount of liquid solvent could be injected back in. The tiny hole from a small needle should be easier to seal up again after the repair.

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 2:46am

I still wait for the last two Lipos to be delivered, have had
a few changes of plan too..

The enclosure will not fit the batteries in with the Infineon
damn things are just huge. Only two alternatives, well in the
end one, either mount the Infineon externally (outside of the
enclosure
) or two...make a new enclosure. So it will be the second.
I will paint this enclosure i have now with some blue paint i picked up
today so i can use 6 22v packs 44v 15ah mount it all on the bike
and get to riding it. I have HEAPS of fiberglass left need to pick up some more
catalyst and some foam, i will get onto this next week or so? whenever the bike is up
an running and usable. The Infineon and 6 packs fit no probs, i could
probably squeeze in 8 packs but i also have to fit the dc-dc converter
all veeeeeery close to fitting but in the end no cigar. New enclosure will be of the same
shape but taller, prolly 3-4inches only not a heap this will
allow room for 9 packs two 12fet Infineons and the 48/72v to 12v converter,
i did think of cutting and extending this one but decided against that in favour of using it now
so the bike will be up and running ...and then building a complete new unit
so i can go with planned 66v setup..

I have just painted the battery enclosure in etch primer after a rub down with 800grit
wet and dry. No pics yet, shall report back with a few snaps later this evening
after i have put on a couple of cots of primer filler.

I also re-upholstered the old seat, the seat from the trike (ones with the 4 buttons)
is nice, i think it will be veeeery comfy, but i have always liked the
look of the old seat i have been using till now-->

Image

^^^think this is the one i will go with, the button less finish is
neater looking
IMO.

The 3 old batteries i been cycling, 1 is gone down to 2 packs now. The one that i have
ditched has 2 cells that wont play the game. The other two are balancing better
can get them all within .01-.02v of each other.


Back soon.

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by 1000w » Apr 07 2010 4:35am

Hey Kim,
What about just making a slightly taller lid section for the exsisting batt case?
I will drop over soon to catch up.
Cheers,
Matt.P.

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 7:52am

Thought about raising the lid, Flav and i even mocked it up with a higher roof looked
shithouse...so new enclosure it is.. Be exactly the same as this one Frank
just slightly taller, same scoop etc, really no need for ventilation for the cells
they don't get even slightly warm mate, the controller prolly will benefit from
some airflow though?

Here's a pic of the enclosure after the first coat of primer filler
IMG_4936.jpg
IMG_4936.jpg (74.09 KiB) Viewed 1685 times
Shall give it a light rub tomorrow anther coat of primer then a splash of bluuue...
Went and paid 35 bucks to get paint mixed and left the bloody
powder coated sample piece at home grrrr... since it wont be a permanent
fixture and used only till i make a new one won't matter greatly
if the paint is a shade lighter or darker, sprayed a lil on some paper
looks close to me, shall see when its sprayed on a larger area tomorrow.

I'll be home all week Matt (up the Bakery if not home) just in case you
don't get me on the phone as i'll be in the workshop...

Ciao for now...

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by Kepler » Apr 07 2010 4:49pm

Thats a great looking enclosure and must have been a heap of work. Shame you cant use it on the final setup.

Great build by the away. Up there with the best I have seen.
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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 5:26pm

Cheers Kepler, it is a bit of a disappointment, i just underestimated the size of the Infineon
i did measure it up when i got the measurements and thought it would all fit, seeing it wasn't
an original plan to use it though the housing wasn't made to accommodate it :-S Another
few days work to make another no huge hassle really...just messy hahaa...

I received the first of 2 infineons from Lyen, pulled it apart swapped out the lil battery and motor wires and beefed up the shunt slightly :wink: -->
Infineon_10AWG_wire.jpg
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Soldered_Shunt_1.jpg
Soldered_Shunt_1.jpg (78.2 KiB) Viewed 1596 times
Soldered_Shunt_2.jpg
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Soldered_Shunt_3.jpg
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Image

Dunno if this is correct never done it before, i soldered in some
copper wire to the shunt and saturated it with more solder
wasn't sure how hot its safe to get the board/fets so did it bit by bit
so it didn't heat up too much.

I have also made up the hall sensor leads,
IMG_4931.jpg
IMG_4931.jpg (187.47 KiB) Viewed 579 times
The green wires will be colour coded with heat shrink after they
exit the motor


i will try the internal setup as its
neater, i don't know yet whether i'll even use the infineon now or set the bike
up with the original rc setup and play with the halls/infineon on the bench for
now and get it all working 100% (i envisage problems) and i just want to
ride the bike and have it usable. I'm thinking set the Infineon aside
build the new enclosure so i can fit 66v in and then switch it out to the
Infineon/halls setup...I would also like to not waste the hall sensors i have (5 of)
on this old model HXT Turnigy Outrunner and save them for the new model
180kv i am wanting... see how i feel later today after sanding and painting, might
have a play with the halls/turnigy then if i am in a good mood.

Back with some more painted pics of the enclosure later today anywayz

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by Hyena » Apr 07 2010 6:53pm

That sucks about your enclosure - there's no way to mount the controllers externally somewhere ? Near the motor, under the seat ? By the time you're done your whole frame is going to be encased! I guess having gone to this amount of work though you want it all hidden.

That's some serious soldering! That's not the shunt though, that's the traces. The shunt is on the other side of the board - probably 2 little arched bars near the caps. They'll need beefing up too but not nearly as much as you've done on the back. If there's 2 try soldering in the equivalent of a 3rd and see how it affects the current. It won't be accurate in the software any more though when you're programming the current.
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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 7:31pm

Cheers Hyena...i see the shunt, thought was all the same pft..electronics makes me sleepy and disinterested. Shall pile some solder
on the lil bars.

And yes could easily mount the Infineon externally, but they are ugly than you in the mornings mate not about to mount
one where it can be seen. Just wish that somebody could come up with something the size of the RC ESCs that did high voltage
and were the same size, these brushless controllers are ridiculous in size.

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 7:54pm

Hyena...with beefing up the shunt, would it be a good idea to also
add some copper underneath the board also, doubling up the size of the shunt basically?

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by rodgah » Apr 07 2010 8:16pm

hey kim,

i must of missed the reasoning but why are you ditching the rc controller for sensored bricks? is the start up that bad or do you want to run more voltage? not bagging your choices just interested. oh just out of interest, on the CC HV esc can you adjust your LVC limit on it or do you need to hook it up to the software to do so. And since you have one, do you think the twin disc hub from chopperus would cope with twin 3220 power and some nasty offroad...obviously on the rear of a bike with no pedals :wink: :wink: . The fact its only 10mm axle kinda turns me off straight away, I was thinking i might get a disc ready screw on freewheel 14mm axle bmx hub and use a screw on to 6bolt disc adaptor....flip the hub in the dropouts so disc adaptor is on disc side, and one of matts 6bolt to chainring adaptors on the other side. Then off to find forks, rims and spokes that will handle around 120-130 kgs of bike and rider and some decent sized jumps. Maybe i should jsut buy a zero mx lol.

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 8:55pm

The CC HV110 was fine once moving, the immediate startup was an issue for me as i can't pedal. I was telling Matt.S
in PM just this morning though, alot of the issue with it i had was due to the Sturmey Archer, i couldn't power on hard at the start because it would crunch the 3 speed gears sounded horrible, in doing so it would also pull the pulley
sideways this would pull the belt off. So i was left trying to baby it off the line, something sensorless wont do, now i have the freewheel hub and ENO i'm 99% sure i will just be able to give it some herbs once the motor syncs rather than fiddling it too ease off the mark at a snail pace which is how i had to do it with the 3 speed unfortunately. Aside from that there is the whole stuck with 48v... TBH though it pissed on 48v, I will be getting the Turnigy 180kv motor ASAP (out of stock) when i do i would like to try this on 48v also, i think my top speed would increase dramatically...although top speed isn't my main concern, acceleration is, top speed is neither here nor there TBH, i want to be able to accelerate to ~60km/hr as fast as possible. It does it now well once i am up to running pace and the Sturmey can handle it, be 100% improvement now though with the ENO i will be able to power it full from idle.... The ChoppersUS hubs i wouldnt put on your bike, get a high end unit with a 8in disk.

I have soldered up the shunt...again no idea how much or little is needed, i wrapped some copper wire around the
two bars and saturated it with solder-->
IMG_4966.jpg
IMG_4966.jpg (83.33 KiB) Viewed 1741 times
IMG_4970.jpg
IMG_4970.jpg (71.11 KiB) Viewed 1741 times
If i am honest Rodgah, I have lost all motivation to even put the Infineon back together atm let alone piss about fitting hall sensors. The RC ESC wasn't really that bad mate, if you have the throttle interface of Mr Fecther's?
you will need a few mods to it, once thats done its smooooth as excellent low range throttle response etc
just that initial 2 feet at start up thats the issue for me.

Off to do some sanding and painting...back soon.

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by Hyena » Apr 07 2010 8:58pm

AussieJester wrote:Hyena...with beefing up the shunt, would it be a good idea to also
add some copper underneath the board also, doubling up the size of the shunt basically?

KiM
I wouldn't go too crazy on the shunt itself but maybe Luke or Methy would be better to advise you on that because I don't have alot of experience with high current up around 100 A and beyond. I know from past experience even slightly beefing up the shunt gives alot more current . eg on my old 12 fet soldering in an extra piece of 22ga wire across the existing 2 shunts upped the current from 25 A to 70 A so doing similar to this one that's already ~70 A should give you around 100 A. You have to keep the limitations of the fets in mind.

I'd solder a few thin-ish pieces of wire in parallel with the existing shunt and then test it. That way if it's way too high you can just snip one out, or add a bit of solder to it. You can usually put the case back together and just get at it from one end by leaving the end plate off. It's slightly fiddly with the iron but good for testing on the bike.

edit: jesus, I'm too late :lol:
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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 07 2010 9:14pm

Hyena wrote:
edit: jesus, I'm too late :lol:
No biggy mate, as i said in my above post all but lost interest in it now anywayz...

Cheers mate

KiM

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by rodgah » Apr 07 2010 9:29pm

hahaha like a 5 yearold with a yoyo, keen as till he realises the strings too long for him......Kims 30amp to 2000amp mod hahahaha, not using fetchers box, using matts approach with http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 16&t=12261

I myself am not really concerned with start up, but I can see where your coming from.
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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA

Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 08 2010 12:39am

OMG KiM! LOL!

The base shunt bars are made of a high-resistance material with like 100x the resistance of copper. That MoFo will have zero current limiting. However... it should take off like a monster, and it sure won't have to worry about PWM switching losses (unless you're partial throttle).

It will be really interesting to see how it performs with no current limiting. It just might work perfect for this application, and it will be a holy terror of torque!
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gwhy!   100 kW

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by gwhy! » Apr 08 2010 3:26am

AussieJester wrote: Just wish that somebody could come up with something the size of the RC ESCs that did high voltage
and were the same size,

KiM
Hi KiM,
Its been said before.... the 6Fet. :wink:

I would advise trying to remove your shunt mod, at least till you have your motor up and running and have a feel for the software settings.

Edit:
Don't get to dis-heartened. When you have this up and running you will soon feel the difference between a RC ESC and the sensored controller . Just slap those halls into the motor and spin it up on the bench to get a feel for it. :mrgreen:

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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

Post by AussieJester » Apr 08 2010 4:03am

gwhy! wrote:Don't get to dis-heartened.
Wont be an issue as i wont be running it mate, going to stick with the HV110 not frocking anything else up
wasted enough money already...cheers for your help though GWhy much appreciated.

KiM

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