Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:29 pm

Ok so I stole the title from the well known books.
I am the idiot that needs help.
Can anybody condense down the RC Motor thread so that those of us that are not able to fully get what is needed for a RC setup. I have read the RC Motor posts and just need a little direction.

Is there a complete setup available to purchase? For those of us that have neither the skill nor the tools to fabricate anything more than a simple bracket.

Is there a step by step thread on how to put one of these drives together DIY? I know that it is buried in the posts on the RC Motor thread. I was hoping someone could cut through all the other stuff and just tell me what parts are needed and how to assemble them.

If neither of these are available, except in the RC Motor thread. Could one of the RC Motor folks please take the time to put the info together so that IDIOTS like me can get a better grasp on how to assemble and enjoy on of these drives.

THanks
KAZUALT
Last edited by KAZUALT on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby TylerDurden » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:07 pm

RC-motor/ebike development is mostly at the experimentation and prototype stage.

If you can calculate, fabricate and innovate, there is plenty of room in the pool... but it won't be easy or cheap.

By the time it gets to the "Idiot's" stage, people will be selling kits.
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:43 pm

OK Now I understand why I couldn't figure out a few things.
Well until it gets to the IDIOT stage guess I will go with the 360watt or 500watt cyclone setup.
THanks
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby gunthn » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:04 pm

Just my thoughts, but I would not use the internal controller cyclones. Order the external model which come in a few varieties, depending on what you want. The internals suffer water damage and cannot be easily fixed when they break. If you would like some pointers I would be happy to relate my experience with them. I think you will receive performance that is near some jof the RC setups without complex fabrication, but you must follow a certain path to get there.

Good Luck,

Gunther
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby hillbilly » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:04 am

Gunther,

Perhaps it should be done in another thread but I'm sure that I'm not the only idiot who would really appreciate your explanation of the proper "path" to follow in regard to Cyclones.

thanks!
Carl
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby spinningmagnets » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:17 am

It sounds like KAZUALT had his question answered, so a little side OT won't hurt.

The 650W is the smallest cyclone kit with a separate controller. (though it SHOULD be possible to gut the 500W integral controller, and adapt an external controller). Motor wattage factory power ratings at 24V. Roughly $350, plus tax/shipping, and also does NOT include battery/charger.

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm

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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby gunthn » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:55 am

Idiot is such a strong word. And, one I can never outlive. It is idiocy and ignorance that has lead me to this current 'path' :wink:

I hope I don't look like I'm pretending not to be one. My idiocy is measured in dollars. They are all sitting in a pile under my bench.

It is really quite simple. Gear it down dramatically and run it at 48v. 58t on the primary and 36t on the secondary to a 34-11 cassette. This will keep the motor much happier and will allow it to really use all of it's power, which though it is much less than the RC setups here, can still propel the cycle up hills that I never would have thought possible at good speed. The 'gears' keep the motor producing torque. Every time you shift the motor kicks in and gives another blast. I am too much of a neophyte to know what this is called in electrical terms but it sure does work.
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:41 pm

I will be using the cyclone motor on a TerraTrike Path tadpole recumbent with a NuVinci hub on the rear. I have plenty of room under the seat for the motor. The rep from cyclone suggested that I use a split chain setup, with 2 freewheels. THat way I can not have to peddle when the motor is in use and also allow me to use the NuVince hub to its fullest. Great Hub by the way. He claims it will be the best setup for me. I will make sure that I get the controller that was suggested.

I live in Pittsburgh and it has some hills, which motor will give me the best bang for my buck? Total weight with Trike & Rider is around 210lbs. My gear range is 21-98 and I am able to change out the front gear fairly qiuckly to achieve either lower or higher gears as needed. I don't need to be a speed demon, but I don't want to be a turle either.

What watt & ahr battery would you suggest for the motor?

I was quoted $415 for the 360watt complete, $445 for the 500watt. Which isn't bad.

I am renaming the thread to "Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS!!!!
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:13 pm

WOW You talk about REALLY FEELIN LIKE AN IDIOT!!!! I happen to look down the topics again and what do I find but RC Motors for dummies. Sorry I am being redundent. How do I go about changing the topics name to Cyclone Mid_drive Guide for IDIOTS. Oh well we all make mistakes.

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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby kentlim26 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:26 pm

the 24volt controller.... please don't order that one. Use a 36volts controller is best choice. I have blown my 24v controller with 36v SLA batteries. that is how come i ended up with a 36v controller. Lesser possible chance to get blown. if you are using the 24v controller, try to stick only 24v... never used 36v sla (sealed lead acid), or lifpo4. if i were you, i will never touch the 24v controller a better choice, i will get a kelly controller to work with cyclone motor is best choice. kelly controller won't blow. Kelly controller can also work with other hub motor if one day you intend to make a switch.
Conhis hub motor run on April 2010, 48v 1000watts hub motor distance run 5800km, and Re~alive cyclone kit bought in year 2009, Bought a greentime controller 18fets- 4110 , 48v~ 90v , 3-speed mode. Latest top speed I got for my greentime controller 76.8km/h ! , yet to reach 80km/h, or I will never reached 80km/h ?
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:44 pm

Ok I understand more about the controller now thanks. THe problem with me getting a kelly is that I am electronics illiterate. I usually learn most things by tinkering with an existing system to see how it works and then go from there. Kinda Bass Ackwords I know but it works for me. So basically unless I have simple instructions or plug and play its out of my league for now. I was leaning towards the 36v controller if I got the 500watt. But if I do the 360watt I will probably just go with the 24v mainly because the battery I choose will be 24v 20ahr LiFePo. It seems like this will give me plenty of power with a 360 watt motor. If I am wrong please let me know.

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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby Burtie » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:53 pm

Go for the bigger motor! You can always drive the big one slow, but you can't drive the small one fast.

I have built both 500w and 1200w cyclone setups and been very pleased with both -but given the choice i would use the 1200w everytime :D

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9424
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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:31 pm

The biggest problem with a 1200watt is the cost of the battery needed to run it. From what the rep told me the 500watt requires a battery that is in the $325-$375 range.That is more than I want to invest right now, but will probably do it just for the climbing power. What battery would you use with the 500watt setup?

The reason the 360watt interested me mainly was the fact that I could run it on 2 cheap sla batteries, total weight 21lbs. Add that to me and the trike and I still come in under 250 lbs soaking wet. Also since I ride my trike now 3-4 times a week, I will definatley be pedaling. So the motor will be used 90% of the time as a power assist. But I am definatley being swayed by the posts. So unless I get someone with a 360watt that can give me an idea of it's preformance, then it will be the 500watt. If for no other reason than theres alot more info on it.

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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby recumpence » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:46 pm

I would agree with this thread. If you are looking for innexpensive mid drive (non-hub), Cyclone is definately the way to go!

RC setups are light, fast, and exotic for sure. But, they are a bit finicky and expensive. It is all a matter of what you are looking to achieve and how deep your pocket is. :D

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Re: RC Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby kentlim26 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:04 pm

for the 360watts the top speed i heard is only 32km/h Maximum (24v on a lifepo4 30hr) . being 32km/h is bit too slow, weak troque , never been so fun for me too !. Burtie is exactly right, bigger watts is the best choice. once you have fixed it with 900watts or 1200watts (3piece of crank kit). for other kits 1000watts 7tooth motor is not a good choice unless if you know how to switch it to a belt to run, ya - silent. if you are using the 7tooth gearing.. (please don't take out once you have fixed it) getting a lifepo4 will give you a good coverage range. The good thing about 24v 20hr lifepo4 is the cost is much cheaper, easily to replace if the battery is down. Also, the battery weight is much lighter and battery holder can be much easier to build.

higher watts kits 900above, best thing is the troque 0km/h to 40km/h can be done in few seconds. Actually cyclone intend to build Double motor 1200watts , seem unsuccessful. I think motor holder must have bend badly when it drag test. 0km - 60km/h in 3seconds. Faster then my 150cc honda bike. he got to come out something made of solid steel , that won't bend.

cheers,
kentlim
Conhis hub motor run on April 2010, 48v 1000watts hub motor distance run 5800km, and Re~alive cyclone kit bought in year 2009, Bought a greentime controller 18fets- 4110 , 48v~ 90v , 3-speed mode. Latest top speed I got for my greentime controller 76.8km/h ! , yet to reach 80km/h, or I will never reached 80km/h ?
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How to change a thread title, even a response title

Postby spinningmagnets » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:30 pm

"...How do I go about changing the topics name to..." (Look for the EDIT button above..........................*here*)

Click on the first post at the top, click on the "edit" button, and then delete the old title, and type the new one in the title box
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Wow I don't know how I missed that one THANKS

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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby gunthn » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:02 pm

I am not sure. But I believe that you can run the 48v at any voltage. So you could use the 24v battery and have room for upgrading. I have blown every controller but the 48v. They seem to be very robust. Using a controller other than the cyclone may cause headaches. I just don't have the knowledge to say though. As for a tadpole I just have no experience with what works for them so maybe somebody knows here. Mine is for a GT Ruckus which I have perfected but is entirely different than what you want.

There is one thing. Cyclones are geared for 24v. So the 48 is spinning twice as fast on the same sprockets and this causes problems like overheating. They have a temp sender in the motor which will kick if the motor gets hot.

As for cheap batteries. I got a catalog from Ecity power and the prices are great. The website seems to be down but people say good things about them.
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby spinningmagnets » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:26 pm

I wouldn't be worried about pushing 36V through a 24V Cyclone, but I would add a temp-sensor that kicks on a fan ducted to the motor when it gets hot on a hill. For higher speed/torque than 36V?...

I would sell the 24V Cyclone motor (while it still runs) to someone who had fried his at 48V, and then use the money to buy a BLDC motor that meets your goals without worrying every day that it could fry at any time,...but that me.

edit: "healthyoung" reports below that the stock Cyclone internal controller for 24V motors should not be run at more than 30V, unless opened up and modified. Motor can handle 36V, controller electronics cannot
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby gunthn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:08 am

spinningmagnets wrote:I wouldn't be worried about pushing 36V through a 24V Cyclone, but I would add a temp-sensor that kicks on a fan ducted to the motor when it gets hot on a hill. For higher speed/torque than 36V?...

I would sell the 24V Cyclone motor (while it still runs) to someone who had fried his at 48V, and then use the money to buy a BLDC motor that meets your goals without worrying every day that it could fry at any time,...but that me.



Spinningmagnets,

I once thought this way and now I have pile of cheapo internal controllers that I ran at 36v. I gave them to the kids for an art project.

Kazault,

If you are going to ride in the rain stay away from internal controllers. They just can't take the moisture over time. You are going to like the results of the cyclone setup but you will be very disheartened when your motor quits and the only fix is to send it back to Taichung. Go with the 36v ext. at least. If the controller messes up you can just order a new one without dismantling your setup and paying high shipping costs back overseas only to have Paco tell you that it was not warrantied against moisture. :wink:
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby gunthn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:56 am

I don't know if this would help but this is the website for Ecity power

http://www.bmsbattery.com/index.php?cPath=1
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby spinningmagnets » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:25 am

gunthn, I must confess I have no hands-on experience with 24V Cyclones at 36V. Was the main problem heat build-up due to internal position?

Or did 36V damage the internal electronics? Its my understanding that SLA batteries will have a 10% higher voltage when fresh off a charger, so 36V SLA pack might be 40V for the first minute of the ride. If that is the problem (I honestly dont know) then perhaps a 33V LiPo pack would be a good compromise (if I am careful to never ride in the rain)?

I can see where Cyclone would want to use a proprietary motor interface, so that you couldn't buy a motor from a competitor if you wanted the Cyclone system. On the stock 24V motor, can they be disassembled, and modified so the controller wires allow an external generic controller?
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby gunthn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:27 pm

I would say I have less experience(valuable) then sort of a I'm just going to walk away from this because I don't really know what the hell I just did to make that happen. :shock:

I just haven't been able to ruin a 48v yet and that is my 'experience' so someone else might say these are the greatest thing(the 24) while I just think I discovered the Vega of the Ebike world. Know whatta mean? Experience is relative. Like just about every other thing that passes through my optical nerves and then is recombodulated by my hands.
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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby KAZUALT » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:42 pm

Yep I will be running atleast a 36v External Controller. I ride in any weather, including the snow. We have rail trails along the rivers that go to all parts of the city. So unless its pouring out I ride my trike to do everything. What knda of case do you put the external controller in? I have a battery box for two sla 12v batteries and it has an extra sealed compartment that I am not going to use. Would the controller cause a problem being so close to the battery?
Here is a link to my trike. http://www.terratrike.com/path.php
Nice thing about is I have lots of room to mount diferent things and its not all that heavy. I can't wait to see how the NuVinci hub works with the Cyclone. Just peddaling the hub make hills so much easier, no loss of momentum from shifting.

Here is what I am down to
360 Watt Cyclone motor, still thinkin about the 500
36v External Controller
2 Freewheels
Split Chain setup
throttle, what is best?
24v 20ah battery power

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Re: Cyclone Motor Mid-Drive Guide for IDIOTS Needed!

Postby kentlim26 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:00 pm

the best throttle i ever feeling for it, it is US currie pro throttle (cool, easy for controlling) compare with the half twist throttle. half twist throttle i think it is hard for my hands, and feel numb. keywin throttle is okay, still need improvment. (i add a silicon), so the trottle button is round. i haven't tried out the full twist throttle, i think that one is good. since all the motorbike is using ful twist throttle.
Conhis hub motor run on April 2010, 48v 1000watts hub motor distance run 5800km, and Re~alive cyclone kit bought in year 2009, Bought a greentime controller 18fets- 4110 , 48v~ 90v , 3-speed mode. Latest top speed I got for my greentime controller 76.8km/h ! , yet to reach 80km/h, or I will never reached 80km/h ?
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