Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

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panurge
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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by panurge » Jan 25, 2017 7:19 am

Are you looking for a model of the female spline shape (cog & adapters) or for the male driver? they're obviously different...
For the female interface here's a very good model. http://www.peterverdone.com/hyperglide/
Remember that although Hyperglide is a standard, the 9 spline interface is in fact a "pseudostandard" especially for the inserts with many slightly different interpretations over the decades, a very lax interface with big tolerances, mostly depending by the locking interface.
Note that If you don't intend to make synchro-clusters, there is no need for the small spline: a regular 9 spline shape is easier and equally good.
However, If you intend to make a male driver, the exact Hyperglide shape is needed, to insert HG cogs.
JulesL.


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John Bozi
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34t guard carrier

Post by John Bozi » Jan 26, 2017 2:12 am

Cheers Jules,

He seems a bit unsure in his comments about the absolute accuracy too though.

Image

What does he mean by the .25+? I usually think that would mean tolerance for error. in which case it would end up roughly near my 35 33mm dia

The odd splined one probably does matter in forward movement, but having an extra line to lean on is always good when it comes over 10 times human power.

I am working on this female part, probably a sandwich guard guide sprocket carrier..... bit aggressively lightened but still not sure how thick stainless Im going.... and there are two of em.

Image

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by nutnspecial » Jan 26, 2017 4:21 am

Cool John, that looks nice. I think your reasoning is solid too. It's a tolerance only to the positive.

I'm not sure exactly, but if you're doing what I'm guessing, would it be worthwile to instead simply modify an existing cassette stack to add for carrier function? That way the torque naturally spreads over the whole cassete, and is likely way cheaper, easier etc as the fine machine work is already taken care of.

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by John Bozi » Jan 26, 2017 3:12 pm

I wish I could find second hand 14t sprockets with regular hole pattern, they don't really exist or to buy a bunch of them works out very expensive too. They are needed to spread the force as you know.

The concept above is closely related to

Image
and http://www.projection-components.co.uk/ ... 1112-p.asp

I own a few of similar products and have run this system. I am at the stage I want to fine tune the design exactly. Even buying all those bits mentioned in the quantity I want to spread across the whole hub body will cost hundreds. If I can get this machined to similar I know which will be better and more rewarding. :D

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panurge
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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by panurge » Jan 26, 2017 5:53 pm

Hey John!
John Bozi wrote:He seems a bit unsure in his comments about the absolute accuracy too though.
Well, I would say that without an official shimano HG paper in hands, can't be sure of the absolute accuracy :wink: so that's why we call it pseudostandard....but I checked this model and sure the guy knows what He does....
John Bozi wrote:What does he mean by the .25+? I usually think that would mean tolerance for error. in which case it would end up roughly near my 35 33mm dia
yes that''s the positive tolerance. so 35 is on the high border for the major diameter and 33 is .25 over the limit of the minor diameter.
John Bozi wrote:The odd splined one probably does matter in forward movement, but having an extra line to lean on is always good when it comes over 10 times human power.
I'm not sure what you intend with forward movement, but having 9 equally spaced splines instead of the exact Hyperglide does not affect the engagement surface (in traction) with the driver, the small spline is in fact a way to give a direction to the cogs (so you cannot reverse them) and mostly to facilitate and fix the position of the cogs in a cluster.
John Bozi wrote:I am working on this female part, probably a sandwich guard guide sprocket carrier..... bit aggressively lightened but still not sure how thick stainless Im going.... and there are two of em.
Cool design, would like to see where it will go^_^
John Bozi wrote:I wish I could find second hand 14t sprockets with regular hole pattern...
what do you mean with regular hole pattern?
JulesL.


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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by John Bozi » Jan 27, 2017 8:18 pm

Appreciate all the input mate.

When you say you checked the standard do you know anyone who has produced a real sprocket from this?

.25 over the limit of the minor diameter. is like .125 on either side. The last time I got something machined the doods added .1 to an m6 hole to drop through... wasn't totally happy. so that may well be a bit loose. I was hoping that whoever designed the shimano spline used logic 35 33 rounded numbers.

My design I just divided the circle and used those lines (pic on last page of this thread) where he has gone 40 and then "90 degrees" it looks like with his 6.25 rectangle measurement. I did a quick rotation of this and the tooth ends up very different. The last time I stared at my dt swiss hub was a while and its buried deep right now, but I think I remember it was oddly angled more inwards at the base which is similar to my design than the straight angle.... will have to pull it off to inspect it since I really should design around it instead all of these other companies that use pawls which fail under 4kw. to do list....

Engagement for me sorry in my speak is forward movement. The extra contact with the odd spline is in my mind at least extra support for any twisting.

The pic I posted of my initial designs is only one of many meant to sandwich and engage as much as possible.

Thanks for mentioning the purpose of the odd one. It will probably be beneficial in this purpose too since a couple of the pieces will be threaded or countersunk.

Before I ever started trying to machine stuff myself I first tried looking for premade methods obviously. A 14t sprocket is the right size to not be too tall or short for a hole for bolts. If you ever pull apart a cluster have a look at the 14t one. Mine anyway that's been sitting next to my computer for weeks for reference... has lightening holes punched through it of various sizes covering only about 80% and then there is shifting angled part that I don't want. If they were regularly spaced and sized and they were cheap I could use a hole bunch of them to tighten up the base of the tall designs.

I am in the process of discussing with machinists.

I am a newb to this area of designing your own. I recently learnt a bit of cad stuff and got this 219 sprocket, I think laser cut. I can't explain the satisfaction I felt designing exactly what I wanted and was possible and then seeing it in a solid stainless state. It really is addictive!!!!!

My designs are revolving around 34t stainless 104bcd that I got a bunch of on sale.

Image

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by panurge » Jan 28, 2017 10:17 pm

Hey John
I've checked the P.V. Inner and outer diameters with the one we used @ Onion some years ago, although we've made mostly drivers.
The last sprocket we did was a Ti 40t for an earlier 1x10 setup in 2012, though. Image
I understand that any even minimal help is wanted about engagement surface and stability of the assembly, but trust me, the odd spline will add near nothing, even backward. There, what makes the difference, is the width of the insert's base and the locking effectiveness....

The minor diameter determines the contact amount between the side of the splines, that's what engage....the major diameter is what determine the tolerance of the whole insertion. He is right about the 0 negative tolerance, In my perspective, the major diameter positive error amount, has little to no importance, and you can have a .5 positive error without issues. A +.25 error in the minor diameter, though, leads to laxity and mostly to a poor engage, thus leading to wear and dents of both the body and the inserts. Also. from my retro-engineering measurements, a typical wobble in a hyperglide coupling (before to lock it) is about 1.5° or 0.45mm at the splines (35*3.14/360*1.5) that is again in line with his 40°+- 1°.
Agree about the DTswiss ratcheting system....that's an Onyx driver for visual reference about your straight Vs angled splines doubts. The smoothed edges are probably intended to avoid edge dent, a very common issue, and the straight splines give a flat contact surface.
Image

As to the 14t cog, I got it, yes they usually misses some holes annd have unwanted ramps. Why don't you look at SS cogs? they have a wider base, are flat, and often drilled all around, or missing a single hole. Also I think you can get them cheaper...If I well remember Miche makes blank and drilled cogs useful for the purpose.
EDIT found these Point Racing SS cogs at BMO.de, aren't they good and reasonably cheap? If you have a machinist, start with a blank cog and drill out the (supposedly) 44mm BCD 6 holes IS rotor pattern. https://www.bike-mailorder.de/point-rac ... zel-ssp-tx
JulesL.


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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by John Bozi » Jan 29, 2017 4:46 pm

thanks again for the info. I'm still waiting on a machinist quote. Looking for a price that is either similar or cheaper to those cogs is why I haven't bought similar to your suggestion. Considering they look about 1.5mm a sprocket, the thicker ones tend to be angled and not desirable for tightening.

They look to be way over 150 euro to fill the hub and I still have a hole pattern and teeth to deal with. The origin8 or fouriers single speed adapters the red ones I posted a pic of probably work out cheaper even when I dont want the sprocket that comes with them. They are however counter sunk, which is nice for one but not the rest if I bought 3 sets.

If I can get the whole design done for around $150 I will be happy.

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by panurge » Jan 29, 2017 5:53 pm

John, what I miss is where you plan to put all that stuff....have you a thread for this project? that would be good to better figure out your idea because there's something I've missed (150 euros of 9 euro sprockets for a single hub?), plus we don't pollute anymore this one....
JulesL.


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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by DanGT86 » Jan 07, 2018 4:49 pm

These might be old news but seem like the answer to this challenge. Description says they fit on shimano splines.
large_bonz108splined__size-800-0.jpg
large_bonz108splined__size-800-0.jpg (23.67 KiB) Viewed 406 times

They go on these most useful looking cranks:
large_bonzcrankset3 dan.jpg
large_bonzcrankset3 dan.jpg (35.76 KiB) Viewed 406 times
Available from here:
https://www.tartybikes.co.uk/complete_f ... oiMjMxIjt9

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by ferret » Jan 08, 2018 4:01 am

Nice find DanGT86!
This used to be a unicorn and now it's an off the shelf part.

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by Thud » Jan 08, 2018 9:08 am

DanGT86 wrote:
Jan 07, 2018 4:49 pm
These might be old news but seem like the answer to this challenge. Description says they fit on shimano splines.
whoa....those are free wheelers. sweet, but:
"
Will you please let me know if this freewheel is compatible ( fits)with the shimano freehub if not , what hub is this freewheel compatible with?
Posted by Dario on 15/11/2015
Reply from TartyBikes on 16/11/2015"
reply:
"Hi Dario - This freewheel will not fit any rear hubs as it uses a proprietary spline type that is only suitable for the Crewkerz crankset. Thanks, Mark"
get some......

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by ferret » Jan 08, 2018 9:38 am

Thud,
https://www.tartybikes.co.uk/complete_f ... s/c16.html

The shop offers several types of splined freewheels and cranks. The Bonez and Crewkerz brands have Shimano compatible splines while the others (Crewkerz among them) are proprietary patterns.

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by 12-C » Jan 11, 2018 11:01 pm

Nice find!

Are they compatible with 3/32 or 11/128 chains tho?

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Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by DanGT86 » Jan 12, 2018 12:19 am

From a different vendor but looks promising on the 3/32 chain.
C8519AF1-8134-4D34-8FA3-7F8AE2AED7A6.jpeg
This one is a dual bearing type. Maybe it would be like the sbp hd and handle transmitting power while freewheeling on a crank setup?
https://www.trial-bikes.com/en/bonz-pro ... 37666.html

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