Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
User avatar
gwhy!
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1230
Joined: Jan 13, 2009 8:32 am
Location: UK, Bristol

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by gwhy! » Feb 06, 2010 7:50 pm

AussieJester wrote:I would have thought for trials type riding having a freewheel on the back would be worse than fixed anywayz, wouldnt it be more 'motorcycle' like with a bit of resistance from the motor when you throttled off?
Im sure with fixed sprocket you wont have issues anywayz gwhy :-)

KiM
The freewheel do make it very difficult to ride in true trials style ( also the throttle resolution makes it hard as well , but Im working on that :wink: ), was planning to goto a fixed sprocket once the throttle thing has been resolved but looks like I have to sort out the freewheel thing out sooner rather than later :D

User avatar
dontsendbubbamail
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 722
Joined: May 28, 2008 5:50 pm

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by dontsendbubbamail » Feb 06, 2010 8:21 pm

gwhy! wrote: The freewheel do make it very difficult to ride in true trials style ( also the throttle resolution makes it hard as well , but Im working on that :wink: ), was planning to goto a fixed sprocket once the throttle thing has been resolved but looks like I have to sort out the freewheel thing out sooner rather than later :D
I am thinking a dog clutch is what we need. Thud's tran would give us freewheeling and lockup, but it is overkill for folks that don't need two speeds. Maybe we could talk Thud into milling a couple of extra gears and shifting mechanical stuff that we could put in our own boxes.

Bubba

User avatar
johnrobholmes
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4373
Joined: Jul 07, 2008 2:19 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by johnrobholmes » Feb 06, 2010 11:51 pm

I was noticing the other day that my bike didn't roll any faster with motor off, it actually slowed down. Fixed gear has become very attractive for me after the last few rides. Sure it would be a bitch to pedal home if something broke, but keeping a tool kit would allow me to unbolt some drive or take a chain off and make it ridable as a broke moped.

User avatar
drewjet
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 920
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 4:34 am
Location: Orlando, FL USA

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by drewjet » Feb 07, 2010 1:01 am

I just got my SRAM DualDrive in the mail today :) Hopefully I am getting my Matt drive soon as well. Now i need to hook up with Luke to get the freewheels going. Life will be good shortly.

User avatar
deecanio
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2278
Joined: Jan 23, 2007 4:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by deecanio » Feb 07, 2010 3:08 am

would you mind posting up some pics of the dual drive allround Drewjet? also where did you buy? after a LOT of ringing round the UK i ordered mine from prowheelbuilder (US).

D
Kona Stinky 2004
Marzocchi JNR T's 2004
72V 10ah lipo
Xlyte HS3540
Lyen 12 FET Jozz mod

User avatar
gwhy!
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1230
Joined: Jan 13, 2009 8:32 am
Location: UK, Bristol

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by gwhy! » Feb 07, 2010 5:03 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:I was noticing the other day that my bike didn't roll any faster with motor off, it actually slowed down. Fixed gear has become very attractive for me after the last few rides. Sure it would be a bitch to pedal home if something broke, but keeping a tool kit would allow me to unbolt some drive or take a chain off and make it ridable as a broke moped.
I welded my broken freehub today just to see what it would be like and to be honest its not to bad as you say, you could just carry a small chain breaker should you need to peddle any great distance. Hopefully my die will arrive soon so I can try to tap a thread onto a freewheel hub to fit a screw on freewheel this then will also lock the motor driven sprocket securely but will be fixed. Thats the plan anyway :mrgreen:

edit:
the problem i had with my freewheel hub was the teeth of the ratchet mech were rounded, if i took up the drive up slowly it would catch and the ratchet would be fine, I could have gotten round it by increasing the spring strength .. but i couldnt be bothered :mrgreen:

User avatar
flyinmonkie
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 751
Joined: Oct 08, 2008 2:13 am
Location: NZ

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by flyinmonkie » Feb 08, 2010 4:32 am

gwhy,

For you, the less slack in your motor drive the better. You are asking a lot of even a freehub let alone a freewheel on top of that. The 2 together put a lot of slack in the drive system. I think for you the best would be a strong downhill or trials hub with a fixed sprocket driven by the motor and a splined freewheel for the pedals. That way your pedal chain doesn't move when your motor does. Your motor chain will move when you pedal, but you could put a oneway bearing, that has no slack, on the final drive of the motor reduction.

The more I hear about the issues with with the double freewheels, I am leaning towards one splined freewheel and a fixed sprocket for the motor. That will remove any excess slack in the motor drive train and make it less likely to eat it's self.

Clay

User avatar
drewjet
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 920
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 4:34 am
Location: Orlando, FL USA

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by drewjet » Feb 08, 2010 6:54 am

I got it on Ebay. I paid more than I should of but was still a good price. Seams to be in good shape and came with click box and cables and derailer. I'll post up pics later today.

User avatar
Thud
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2813
Joined: Aug 20, 2009 6:20 am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by Thud » Feb 08, 2010 7:33 am

flying monkey said:
The more I hear about the issues with with the double freewheels, I am leaning towards one splined freewheel and a fixed sprocket for the motor. That will remove any excess slack in the motor drive train and make it less likely to eat it's self.
I am still of the opinion that a proper "cush" mounting of the larger sprockets will go a long way adding durability to these built for human power mechanical systems.

Gwhy's failure (& correct me if I am wrong) occured while abusing his drive train. (which is where all the fun is IMHO)
Trial's riding it G? for that you need to upgrade to a converted hub from a mini cycle. I am thinking a front (maybe rear)disc hub off a yamaha YZ85 or along that line.

In a normal "roll it on" & go down the road senario the shock loads are way more reasonable & a cheap freewheel would last a long time with proper maintainace.

If we are going into this with a racing mentality & max performance expectations, you can dis-regard any bicycle parts in the drive train in terms of "durability"
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

User avatar
liveforphysics
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 14617
Joined: Oct 29, 2008 1:48 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by liveforphysics » Feb 08, 2010 8:59 am

No one has ever had an ENO fail.

No one has ever had the splines/hub attachment fail.

Issues with low budget freewheels/freehubs being used in an extreme shock loading situation.

Cheapo freewheels/freehubs fail with no motor just from normal use with a strong guy on the pedals. Lol
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

MrBoots
100 W
100 W
Posts: 121
Joined: Dec 22, 2009 5:32 pm

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by MrBoots » Feb 08, 2010 9:14 am

Sounds like it was just a combo of gwhy's unique riding style and the quality of the freehub. I've got a friend who's a bike messenger puts tremendous stress on his drivetrain daily and has never had a freewheel or a freehub fail. He's 6'5", about 260 lbs. and rides a 48t/15t chainring/freewheel/cog combo on his flip-flop hub. In fact, in all these years he's only had a bent crank-arm.
Diamondback Insight 1 converted to single-speed Cyclocross
Turnigy 63-74 200Kv outrunner
EVLogix RC Throttelizer
Turnigy Sentilon HV ESC and Wattmeter
7S/16ah LiPo battery pack
11t/110t single-reduction

User avatar
gwhy!
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1230
Joined: Jan 13, 2009 8:32 am
Location: UK, Bristol

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by gwhy! » Feb 08, 2010 12:48 pm

:lol: Just for the record:

Yes I am using the drive train to extreme and fully expected it to fail sooner or later. It was a cheap freewheel hub this is true but I have always intended to lock the freewheel because I have had a more expensive freehub fail on me under normal 'trials' power and this is why I personally prefer the screw on freewheels they are cheaper than a really strong freehub and upto now 'I' have not had a 'trials' freewheel fail on me But that being said I know of people that have used WI and other 'good makes' of freewheels that have also failed but again so this is not unique to WI , I never have and never will be upto the standard of cycle trials that some of my mates are at that cause these types of failures in freewheels. But now putting a motor on these cycle components will really test them, Im not a skinflint or penny pincher and I would buy something off the shelf at a drop of a hat if I thought I would be upto the job. Most if not all failures on a cycle trials bike tend to be in the drive train ( chain/freewheels/peddles/cranks/BB ) . I think in the end I will have to go with a mini motorcycle hub for durability as Thud has already said. But Im hoping to dial in the electrical controls first before going down this route.

User avatar
flyinmonkie
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 751
Joined: Oct 08, 2008 2:13 am
Location: NZ

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by flyinmonkie » Feb 09, 2010 1:56 am

Thud wrote: I am still of the opinion that a proper "cush" mounting of the larger sprockets will go a long way adding durability to these built for human power mechanical systems.
I don't disagree that cush in the drive system for most of us is a great idea. The way that is achieved and how much there is would be the issue. For gwhy, no cush would be best as he wants to trials ride and wants response immediately without shock loading anything.

For the rest of us, drive train lifespan would be increased if we could have a little cush with out shock loading anything. If there was none, we would probably see a lot of broken chains, sprockets and mounts, and bent shafts. The problem with freewheels and free hubs, is they have prawls that catch and create a shock load. If the hub and freewheel are not both engaged when power is applied, then a quick application of power will shock load the system as the the prawls engage. With a freewheel and free hub you get double the shock load or the chance for two shock loads.

So to get that cush, it could be a rubber mounted sprocket, or maybe there could be enough in the tire as it will flex as it gets grip with the ground. I think after ridding my bike with only a free hub, that driving the free hub direct with the motor will be the best option if you don't want to pedal alone with the least drag possible. The double freewheel is great for those that want to be able to pedal like a pedal bike and motor when they want to motor. It all depends on what you want to do with your bike. gwhy, may want instant power with with no cush, but may break other parts of the drive train.

Well, that was more than I've said in a long time. I guess I'm saying, think about what you want from your bike and build to suit. There isn't one solution for all. But come up with a cushined sprocket mount would be the cats pajamas (good for those that didn't get that).

Clay

User avatar
drewjet
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 920
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 4:34 am
Location: Orlando, FL USA

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by drewjet » Feb 09, 2010 5:55 am

D,

Here are the pics
Attachments
PICT0747.JPG
PICT0747.JPG (73.4 KiB) Viewed 2284 times
PICT0749.JPG
PICT0749.JPG (48.51 KiB) Viewed 2282 times
PICT0750.JPG
PICT0750.JPG (34.8 KiB) Viewed 2287 times
PICT0751.JPG
PICT0751.JPG (20.75 KiB) Viewed 2284 times
PICT0748.JPG
PICT0748.JPG (35.36 KiB) Viewed 2293 times

User avatar
deecanio
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2278
Joined: Jan 23, 2007 4:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by deecanio » Feb 10, 2010 12:10 am

Thanks for posting Drewjet, looks like quite a tidy example, i did see one on ebay myself but couldn't bring myself to click the buy it now :roll:
what are you doing for shifter and cable? did it come complete?


D
Kona Stinky 2004
Marzocchi JNR T's 2004
72V 10ah lipo
Xlyte HS3540
Lyen 12 FET Jozz mod

User avatar
drewjet
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 920
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 4:34 am
Location: Orlando, FL USA

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by drewjet » Feb 10, 2010 7:55 am

It came with the shifter and cable, and the clickbox as seen in the pics. The problem with the shifter is it is a dual shifter in one. It has shifters for both the 3 and 7 speeds so is kinda useless. My thoughts are that I am going to use a left side 3 speed shifter from a front derailer. Hoefully the spacing will be right.

User avatar
deecanio
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2278
Joined: Jan 23, 2007 4:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by deecanio » Feb 10, 2010 11:46 am

i maybe wouldnt risk damaging the sram with a shifter that might line up the internal gears correctly,
http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/97 ... front.html
not cheap, but then the hubs arent to replace either?

D
Kona Stinky 2004
Marzocchi JNR T's 2004
72V 10ah lipo
Xlyte HS3540
Lyen 12 FET Jozz mod

katou
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 855
Joined: Jul 22, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by katou » Feb 10, 2010 5:20 pm

Best deals I've found are:

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&ac ... sku=HU2597
265 with disc brake

or

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/ ... ub+06.aspx
285 with disc brake

both cases, shifter, cables, clickbox all sold separately.

My LBS actually has one of these, already built into a wheel (from customers that wanted to upgrade to a derailleur system) for 500$

Much cheaper online, but how much for the other parts? + 30$ shipping? + 120$ rims+spokes+tire+labour building into a wheel?

Starts to look more reasonable. But I still say these hubs are too much. There's got to be a cheaper way. I'd much rather buy an entire bike with the dualdrive on it, but I haven't seen any yet at a reasonable price.

Katou

User avatar
Ebikeor
1 µW
1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 04, 2010 7:22 am

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by Ebikeor » Feb 10, 2010 6:01 pm


User avatar
spinningmagnets
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 10919
Joined: Dec 21, 2007 10:27 pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 10, 2010 7:59 pm

Thats actually not a bad idea. For an extra $70, you get an entire bike, the clickbox and cable shifting system for the Sram-DD, and the hub is already laced to a 26" rim with 14G stainless spokes.

I notice the front has rim brakes, but the suspension fork has the disc caliper mounts already from the factory. That would be nice for all bikes, no need for a new fork just to add a front disc.

User avatar
gwhy!
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1230
Joined: Jan 13, 2009 8:32 am
Location: UK, Bristol

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by gwhy! » Feb 27, 2010 4:40 pm

My Die and die stock Eventually turned up :P, and after a bit of head scratching I set about trying to cut threads onto a splined freehub , I carried out a surface hardness test on the freehub and decided to just lightly grind the hard surface off ( it really wasnt worth stripping the freehub down and heat treating ). The main problem was getting the die to bite and keeping the die straight at the start of the process. I used a BB threaded cup and bolted this to the end of the hub with the axle, this then gave me a thread for the die to follow and push against it worked a treat. I only wanted enough thread to be able to screw a free wheel onto the end of the hub, It would be possible to thread the whole freehub this way but it was hard work and very time consuming but Im happy :D

comradegerry
100 W
100 W
Posts: 186
Joined: Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm
Location: Afloat somewhere sunny

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by comradegerry » Mar 06, 2010 9:16 pm

Anybody know of another source of the flanged Eno free wheel other than Sikebikeparts? They appear to be out at their website, probably the ES rush! I am sure I saw a slotted and flangrd version on a build here somewhere but it did not pop up on the search. Any direction truly appreciated.

Gerard

Scorefield
10 W
10 W
Posts: 81
Joined: May 30, 2009 2:44 pm

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by Scorefield » Mar 06, 2010 10:20 pm

comradegerry wrote:Anybody know of another source of the flanged Eno free wheel other than Sikebikeparts? They appear to be out at their website.
Gerard
Expect to start shipping again 3/8/10

User avatar
boostjuice
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1027
Joined: Jul 27, 2008 8:50 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by boostjuice » Mar 06, 2010 10:52 pm

You can just use the 22T version. The radial cutout slots are the same BCD as the 5 holes on the 'Sickbikeparts' exclusive unit, although if your going to make a custom sprocket adapter disc, this convienience doesn't really matter...

Image
Image
Last edited by boostjuice on Apr 21, 2011 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

comradegerry
100 W
100 W
Posts: 186
Joined: Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm
Location: Afloat somewhere sunny

Re: Fitting freewheels to splined freehub drivers

Post by comradegerry » Mar 07, 2010 3:44 am

Thank you for the info, I can wait a few days for the availability of the flanged variety.
If the offer of Live For Physics is still open when they are available I will be only too happy to Paypal Thud $20 per free wheel and send a self addressed box with postage for the return of the broached freewheels.
This is still one of the most interesting threads from a colaberative point of view, I am truly impressed by the effort and skills on this forum.

Gerard

Post Reply