Dogati Electric Superleggera

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Post Reply
User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Dogati Electric Superleggera

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 7:32am

The goal of this project is to mate a magnetic clutch (for brake regen) with a compact planetary drive--two 75 series Matex gears (total 12:1 reduction) powered by a 10-turn Astro 3210. The mid-drive system is mounted on the swing-arm and uses a dual freewheel threaded onto the clutch hub that drives a Nuvinci CVP dev kit servo controlled gear hub. The Nuvinci lets you store 5 shift maps selectable by push-button for various pedal or motor configurations. I plan to run: 1-pedal only, 2-pedal assist, 3-hill climb, 4-high torque, 5-high speed. The first prototype was a no-go--holding power of the clutch wasn't strong enough for the torque of the motor. Now modifying my design to use a wet type multi-plate clutch that should be good for 25 Nm. There is still much more in the works including complete frame redesign to integrate the batteries. More details to follow.
bike_and_workshop.jpg
Prototype /w compact drive and Nuvinci dev kit, HV110, throttlizer, elogger, bike-cam and monitor with On Screen Display (CNC mill and lathe in the background).
bike_and_workshop.jpg (108.32 KiB) Viewed 26931 times
clutch_regen_drive.jpg
Holding power of the 12V clutch on this drive is inadequate--back to the drawing board. Section-view of Solidworks model on the right.
clutch_regen_drive.jpg (75.83 KiB) Viewed 26921 times
non_clutch_drive.jpg
Swapped out the clutch for now. Made a new finned housing to help air-cool the motor.
non_clutch_drive.jpg (82.71 KiB) Viewed 26920 times
IMG_0092.JPG
Next candidate: wet type multi-plate electromagnetic clutch good for 25 Nm.
IMG_0092.JPG (109.87 KiB) Viewed 26924 times
Last edited by j3tch1u on Jun 06 2013 8:31am, edited 2 times in total.

kfong   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sep 02 2008 11:34am
Location: SE Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by kfong » Jan 10 2010 9:03am

That's an unusual front suspension. Did you make it yourself?

User avatar
Ypedal   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12523
Joined: Dec 27 2006 12:55pm
Location: Moncton NB, Canada
Contact:

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by Ypedal » Jan 10 2010 9:10am

Looks awsome !!!

I'm very curious to know what you get for efficiency wh/km, and also no load amps. I'm looking for a 3 speed hub to replace my NuVinci for testing.

Going to run full voltage ?
ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
----------------
http://www.ypedal.com

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 10:31am

kfong wrote:That's an unusual front suspension. Did you make it yourself?
no. it is an old-school Girvin parallel link suspension fork. i added the wings to stiffen/jazz it up :lol: not sure if it really works aesthetically. they are originally for 26" mtb wheels. i cut the springs and reduced the travel for the smaller 24" wheels i'm using. i plan on building my own linkage fork using the Girvin as a reference. they will have integrated cree mc-e lamps and carbon fibre arms. conceptually something like this:
confederate-C120-6.jpg
confederate-C120-6.jpg (54.09 KiB) Viewed 28069 times

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 12:41pm

Ypedal wrote:Looks awsome !!!

I'm very curious to know what you get for efficiency wh/km, and also no load amps. I'm looking for a 3 speed hub to replace my NuVinci for testing.

Going to run full voltage ?
ypedal--thank you! i'm a big fan of your builds--i came across your website early on before i found es. do you have anything new in the works?

i'll take some tests after i put the bike back together. don't have any wh/km numbers on the nuvinci and probably won't even bother--after all, the hub is 4kg, my bike is 75 lbs and i'm running a 3" tyre on the back :wink: just don't burn out your controller on a big hill like i did. i ditched my manual nuvinci--can't shift under power and don't want to shift all the time. the devkit on the other hand shows promise. the devkit devs are cool and cut me a great deal at Interbike. really the only change to the hub is a square shift rod and more turns for mechanical advantage (ie. servo shifts under power). not sure if it is geared (haven't opened it up) but i'd like to bump the ratio so that it shifts through the 350% range faster (btw you lose a bit of range because the rod is protected from hitting the hard limits).

if i can get the mag clutch working, i'll be using an S3X which is practically begging for motor braking (and only 990g to boot).
s3x_vs_nuvinci.jpg
Nuvinci vs S3X
weight: 4.1kg vs 990g
flange diameter: 148mm vs 67mm
s3x_vs_nuvinci.jpg (92.9 KiB) Viewed 26638 times
S3X_spline.jpg
9-spline pattern equally spaced. Each spline is 6mm wide but one spline is only 3mm. Some sort of Sturmey thing?
S3X_spline.jpg (80.7 KiB) Viewed 26633 times
S3X_ENO.jpg
Standard ISO 1.375" x 24 TPI. Fixie sprocket and ENO freewheel threads directly onto S3X
S3X_ENO.jpg (85.88 KiB) Viewed 26626 times
Last edited by j3tch1u on Jan 10 2010 1:46pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 1:07pm

Ypedal wrote: Going to run full voltage ?
for the time being, i'm running 12s3p A123 in a CamelBak(Buster). i will try to fit 16s1p 15aH A123 prismatic into the new frame. blew a gate driver on my fechter/goodrum 2.3 bms so temporarily using cell log 8s atm.

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

CNC mill and micro lathe

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 3:59pm

Here's a brief summary on the CNC mill and lathe in my bike workshop. They are bench-top machines adequate for prototyping ebike sized parts but not nearly heavy-duty or fast enough for production use. Their small size makes them a good learning platform--not as fatal if you make mistakes. CNCZone Forums has a nice machinist community with their own superstars like LFP (in a Bizzarro ES Universe sort of way).

Taig CNC Mill:
- Gecko G540 step motor drive
- SmoothStepper motion control interface
- MACH3 with VistaCNC iMach3 screen
- Macbook Pro 17 running Windows 7
- HTS 4th axis rotary/trunnion table
- 5" screwless toolmakers vise
- Craftsman Quickrout adapters converted to quick change tool holders
- MeanWell SP-320-48 power supply /w PFC
- polycarb enclosure on steel table reinforced /w pressure treated wood
- relay/timer/solenoid controlled intermittent mist coolant system
- 3-flute solid carbide end-mills (perfect for 6160-T6 aluminum)
- xyz limit/home switches
- jog pendant using ShuttlePro2 controller
taig_cnc_mill.jpg
taig_cnc_mill.jpg (122.83 KiB) Viewed 3976 times
Taig Micro Lathe II:
- pretty much stock except for digital scales on x-y axis
- A2Z quick change tool post
- powerfeed retrofit kit (on the way)
- steel table reinforced /w 4mm stainless steel plate
- indexable carbide turning bits
- IKEA knife holder modded with N42 magnets :wink:
taig_micro_lathe2.jpg
taig_micro_lathe2.jpg (119.25 KiB) Viewed 3961 times
Last edited by j3tch1u on Jan 12 2010 10:44am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11024
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by Miles » Jan 10 2010 4:39pm

j3tch1u wrote:File comment: 9-spline pattern equally spaced. Each spline is 6mm wide but one spline is only 3mm. Some sort of Sturmey thing?
No, this is how the normal Shimano/SRAM drivers are - it's for Hyperglide cog alignment.

kfong   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sep 02 2008 11:34am
Location: SE Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by kfong » Jan 10 2010 4:41pm

Nice setup j3tch1u, I like how you have enclosed the mill. We wanted to do that as well with our micromill so we could use coolant, but eventually decided it was too messy. We found we could do without the coolant if we kept our cuts light. We mainly cut copper, brass and aluminum. We use a vacuum to keep the bit clear while it’s cutting. Our metal shop.
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/metalworking.html

Could you show pics or views of the cad work of the Matex gear and parts you CNC for it. Looks like I’m going to have similar problems with the currie gears I have. I’ll have to come up with a design to encase them, but it sounds like the ones you have are being torn up with your current setup.
Last edited by kfong on Jan 10 2010 4:51pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11024
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by Miles » Jan 10 2010 4:43pm

j3tch1u wrote:File comment: Standard ISO 1.375" x 24 TPI. Fixie sprocket and ENO freewheel threads directly onto S3X
Yes, great for a regen. set-up. I want to try out my fixed-free switching freewheel on the S3X hub :D

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 5:07pm

Miles wrote:
j3tch1u wrote:File comment: 9-spline pattern equally spaced. Each spline is 6mm wide but one spline is only 3mm. Some sort of Sturmey thing?
No, this is how the normal Shimano/SRAM drivers are - it's for cog alignment.
aha :!: so luke's broached ENOs should fit this puppy too. great!

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 5:25pm

Miles wrote:
j3tch1u wrote:File comment: Standard ISO 1.375" x 24 TPI. Fixie sprocket and ENO freewheel threads directly onto S3X
Yes, great for a regen. set-up. I want to try out my fix-free switching freewheel on the S3X hub :D
like an acs freecoaster but with xbee receivers controlling magnetic coils to actuate the engagement pawls? :D :D i've got a freecoaster on my Redline RL20 sitting in my basement in Toronto!
woodyitsonacsfreecoaste.jpg
itswoodyitson!
woodyitsonacsfreecoaste.jpg (188.86 KiB) Viewed 27917 times
Last edited by j3tch1u on Jan 10 2010 5:37pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11024
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by Miles » Jan 10 2010 5:32pm

Image

I hadn't come across the Freecoaster - interesting.....

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 5:40pm

that looks really neat. how does it work? and will it hold up to 21,120ft-lbs of torque @ 1rpm? :P

User avatar
Miles   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11024
Joined: Mar 16 2007 4:15pm
Location: London UK

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by Miles » Jan 10 2010 5:44pm

If the pins are in they lock the pawls. As it's a screw on freewheel, at the moment, the back-drive torque capacity is somewhat limited :P

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 10 2010 7:40pm

kfong wrote:Nice setup j3tch1u, I like how you have enclosed the mill. We wanted to do that as well with our micromill so we could use coolant, but eventually decided it was too messy. We found we could do without the coolant if we kept our cuts light. We mainly cut copper, brass and aluminum. We use a vacuum to keep the bit clear while it’s cutting. Our metal shop.
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/metalworking.html

Could you show pics or views of the cad work of the Matex gear and parts you CNC for it. Looks like I’m going to have similar problems with the currie gears I have. I’ll have to come up with a design to encase them, but it sounds like the ones you have are being torn up with your current setup.
that's a cute mill--it should be able to handle the gear parts just fine. first time i've seen a loc-line used on a vacuum. just curious, how much backlash were you able to get it down to?

i'll take some more pics. it's a pretty simple/straightforward gearhead design--motor faceplate, gear1, spacer, gear2, cylindrical housing, cover plate/drive mount, M4 hex bolts, output shaft, support hub with big radial bearings, a couple needle thrust bearings, a fixed sprocket and freewheel, 1-way clutch bearing press fit onto a freewheel adapter.

i haven't torn up the gearbox (yet). just a broken 12mm clutch bearing caused by the keyway on the output shaft. if your d-cut connection is tiighhht you'd probably wheelie before snapping off the shaft.

kfong   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sep 02 2008 11:34am
Location: SE Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Mag Max: compact 2-stage drive /w mag clutch brake regen

Post by kfong » Jan 10 2010 11:22pm

There is a bit of play, I think the backlash was .01; it's been a while since I checked it. But it’s easily handled by the software. We are still using the original threaded stock. There have been a lot of mods to the mill along the way. The gibs were redone in brass to tighten up any slack. The only shortfall is the thin column design. A mini mill would have been a better choice. Only the Z axis has a ball screw. The main thing is I'm still able to get tolerances to within +-.001, which is fine for most of the things I do. I've milled a 1/8th stainless plate with it, needed some for my torque arm on the BMC build. I had to convert it over to servo motors to do this. It has been a pretty useful mill. Eventually we will CNC the X3 mill. That should handle steel easily.

Any photos or info on your gear box will help since I will need to model one up as well and need to make it robust as possible.

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 11:47am

Astro 3210 10-turn motor. Lapped the face for better thermal conductivity and tapped 4 additional #6-32 holes for the faceplate. This is important as the entire gearhead assembly acts like a giant heatsink. Turned the 3/8" shaft nub down to 8mm and milled a 1mm deep flat. Tolerances are held close for tight slip fit.
P1120301.JPG
P1120301.JPG (61 KiB) Viewed 20208 times
Last edited by j3tch1u on Jan 11 2010 12:33pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 11:51am

Applied a thin layer of thermal compound.
P1120302.JPG
P1120302.JPG (57.77 KiB) Viewed 20214 times

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 11:52am

Faceplate bolted to the motor.
P1120303.JPG
P1120303.JPG (70.23 KiB) Viewed 20216 times

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 11:54am

First stage 3:1 planetary gearbox Matex part #75-3MAD.
P1120305.JPG
P1120305.JPG (67.66 KiB) Viewed 20206 times
Last edited by j3tch1u on Jan 11 2010 12:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 12:02pm

Gearbox spacer Matex part #U75-903.
P1120307.JPG
P1120307.JPG (65.62 KiB) Viewed 20211 times

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 12:04pm

Second stage 4:1 planetary gearbox Matex part #75-4MLD.
P1120308.JPG
P1120308.JPG (74.86 KiB) Viewed 20212 times

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 12:08pm

Gearhead housing. Fins were cut for better heat dissipation.
P1120309.JPG
P1120309.JPG (73.13 KiB) Viewed 20203 times

User avatar
j3tch1u   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 687
Joined: Dec 26 2008 2:09pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Assembling the Mag Max

Post by j3tch1u » Jan 11 2010 12:09pm

Gearhead faceplate with integrated drive mount.
P1120310.JPG
P1120310.JPG (72.9 KiB) Viewed 20204 times

Post Reply