Best internal gear hub?

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boostjuice   10 kW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by boostjuice » Sep 03 2010 1:45am

Miles wrote:Meanwhile...... this looks interesting: http://www.pinion.eu/en/index.html
-rubs hands together and licks lips in anticipation - :P ....only to be rudely shocked at the price i bet :cry:
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Miles » Sep 03 2010 1:53am

I haven't heard anything about G-Boxx3, yet. Information is slow to come out of Eurobike.....

Anyway for more on the Pinion, see here: http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDeta ... 97A1&KC=A1

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Hillhater » Sep 03 2010 1:58am

comprising an input shaft (30) which can be connected to cranks (16, 16') on opposite sides for driving the vehicle, comprising a first partial transmission, wherein the first partial transmission comprises a countershaft, wherein a plurality of driving gear wheels is mounted on the input shaft (30), and wherein a corresponding plurality of driven gear wheels of the first partial transmission is mounted on the partial transmission shaft, wherein the driven gear wheels of the first partial transmission are designed as idler gears that can be connected to the countershaft by means of shifting means in a rotationally rigid manner, wherein the countershaft forms an input shaft of a second partial transmission, a plurality of second drive wheels being mounted on said output shaft, wherein the second partial transmission comprises an output shaft (32), on which a corresponding plurality of second driven gear wheels are housed, wherein the second drive wheels of the second partial transmission are designed as idler gears which can be connected in a rotationally rigid manner to the input shaft (60) by means of shifting means, and wherein the output shaft (32) of the second partial transmission is designed as hollow shaft that is arranged coaxially to the input shaft (30).
...
... its that simple then ??? :shock: :? :roll:
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Miles » Sep 03 2010 2:01am

Hillhater wrote:... its that simple then ??? :shock: :? :roll:
http://epo.worldlingo.com/wl/epo/epo.ht ... IND=A1&T=1

Look at the mosaics tab....

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Hillhater » Sep 03 2010 5:21am

Yeah ! ... exactly as i thought it worked !

PS .. a really cleaver person should be able to communicate his ideas in an easily understandable way !
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Miles » Sep 03 2010 5:24am

Hillhater wrote: PS .. a really cleaver person should be able to communicate his ideas in an easily understandable way !
If you're referring to the patent, the priority is to be completely unambiguous, not easily understandable. :)

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JennyB   1 kW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by JennyB » Sep 03 2010 6:33am

Miles wrote:
Hillhater wrote: PS .. a really cleaver person should be able to communicate his ideas in an easily understandable way !
If you're referring to the patent, the priority is to be completely unambiguous, not easily understandable. :)
Quick shot at an understandable explanation:

The countershaft has a set of pinions on it that are free to rotate upon it, arranged in two sets. A selection mechanism ensures that only one from each set is fixed to the shaft at any time. The bottom bracket engages with the first set on the countershaft, and the second set engages with an output shaft that is concentric with the bottom bracket and carries the chainwheel. So there is a cog always engaged with each pinion on the countershaft, and they all rotate, but the current gear depends on which pinions are currently fixed to the countershaft. If you have 3 pinions on the input side and six on the output side then you have 3x6=18 possible gears in total.

The patent seems to cover other possibilities such as multiple countershafts, but that is the basic principle.

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Samba   100 W

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Samba » Oct 27 2010 6:05pm

Bah its an old thread that some scooter guy bumped with an offtopic post.

Anyway - I hadn't seen torque limit specs - but had heard of the 2+:1 crank:sprocket limit on the nuvinci and been worried. Its good to see a real torque to work off and the numbers for some of the others.

Here is a link I didn't see in the thread - good wide review that includes the 3speeds. Nothing on torque or reliability they are mainly interested in gear range and the even-ness of gear steps.

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/inter ... hub-review

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by sackspeed » Oct 29 2010 4:36am

I use the NuVinchi hub since 3 years. It works very good and you can use it easy for ebike.

Image

Other like Rohloff are very expensive and there are always problems with shifting.
The NuVinchi is heavy (4KG) and big. But can take 5 KW and a lot of torque.
Offroad you have always a transmission and no noise!!!
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Drunkskunk » Oct 29 2010 12:47pm

Since ElectricScooterParts.com dug up my old thread with there unprofessional post, I thought I would (A.) ignore it, since it has nothing to do with me and (b.) give an update.

Nuvinci was too heavy, so I passed it up. the Alfine was perfect, except no disk or drum brake. at the time I could have it only in V brakes, or I think a coaster brake. maybe it was a roller brake. I forget. too many beers since then and it wasn't a brake i was interested in. the 5 speed Sturm Archer had a 70mm drum brake option, so I went with that.

And got my gas/electric hybrid half built, had the bike ridable, the motor half complete with most of the brackets built ready for welding and was figuring out the jackshaft to share power with an electric when... Ebikekits offered us those geared hub motors for cheap.

It was the only bike I had to try it on, and I figured a front hub might be an alternitive to a mid mounted RC, so on it went, just to try it.

And it works too well.

I put $1500 into that bike to set it up for gas. now the gas motor is collecting dust. every time I go out to work on it, i decide to give it one last ride as a full electric before tearing it back down, and every time I get finnished with that ride, i decide to put it away, unharmed for a while. its just too much fun the way it is. it happens once or twice a week for the last 6 months.

But the 5 speed works great.. with pedal power. :mrgreen:
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by wojtek » May 20 2011 4:56am

it looks like we won't find anything stronger than that!
just first win lottery before clicking on this link :)

http://milltowncycles.blogspot.com/2011 ... hloff.html
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by jateureka » Jun 03 2013 10:20pm

Subscribed for future reference.

some other threads:
Internal gear multispeed hub torque stresses http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=15242

Internally geared hubs http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=20645
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greenspark   100 W

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by greenspark » Feb 20 2014 2:13pm

We have the Bafang BBS01 on the following bike hubs:

NuVinci N360 - Note that the warranty is good only for 250W (Eurospec). We find it shifts well with moderate power, but with full throttle, it feels stiff
Nexus 3 - The motor must be stopped to shift. If not, it makes a loud bang when pressure is sufficiently reduced to allow shifting. Because there is a delay this is a problem for riders who do not plan when going up hills. We plan to rig a button spliced into the ebrake to function like an electric clutch
SA 3 speed - Same issue as the Nexus, seems to work fine
SA 5 speed - Same as above, A bit tighter, a bit more worrisome
7-speed derailleur - Designed to be shifted when pedalling, but we note some loud noises when under full power.

None of these experiences report durability, only the impact of shifting. Bottom line is that the chain takes the sort of power a Lance Armstrong pumps in going up a hill. Logic suggests that this puts more strain on moving parts, but the bigger issue is shifting under power. The NuVinci is designed to solve that problem, but we will have to see if it holds up. For now, the person who can afford it should go the NuVinci N360.

We also find that with a motor, one needs fewer gears. A three-speed is usually sufficient. Up hills in 1st or 2nd, then cruise in 3rd. A wide range gear setting is best.

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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by cal3thousand » Feb 20 2014 4:38pm

greenspark wrote:We have the Bafang BBS01 on the following bike hubs:

NuVinci N360 - Note that the warranty is good only for 250W (Eurospec). We find it shifts well with moderate power, but with full throttle, it feels stiff
Nexus 3 - The motor must be stopped to shift. If not, it makes a loud bang when pressure is sufficiently reduced to allow shifting. Because there is a delay this is a problem for riders who do not plan when going up hills. We plan to rig a button spliced into the ebrake to function like an electric clutch
SA 3 speed - Same issue as the Nexus, seems to work fine
SA 5 speed - Same as above, A bit tighter, a bit more worrisome
7-speed derailleur - Designed to be shifted when pedalling, but we note some loud noises when under full power.

None of these experiences report durability, only the impact of shifting. Bottom line is that the chain takes the sort of power a Lance Armstrong pumps in going up a hill. Logic suggests that this puts more strain on moving parts, but the bigger issue is shifting under power. The NuVinci is designed to solve that problem, but we will have to see if it holds up. For now, the person who can afford it should go the NuVinci N360.

We also find that with a motor, one needs fewer gears. A three-speed is usually sufficient. Up hills in 1st or 2nd, then cruise in 3rd. A wide range gear setting is best.
Good info. I agree that you don't need that may gears, but the spread is important.

I was looking into an IGH solution for more gearing at high speed, but but started thinking about the fact that I only need 2 to 3 gears. So for me, putting the gearing into the crank and single sprocket in the back would be great. I'm going with the FSA Metropolis Patterson and then modifying it for a 44T/70T front ring. Coupled with a 14T or 11T out back, should do nicely.

Here's a good site for calculating gearing ratios, speed and cadence:

http://www.machars.net/bikecalc.htm
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 29 2014 12:19pm

This seems to be the largest IGH thread when I Google, so...I'll just park this here so i can find it in the future:

http://all-about-hubs.com/start.php?action=en

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by eMax » Jul 02 2014 11:33pm

Has anyone tried the SRAM G8?
https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/g8

Interestingly it can be shifted under load which might make it ideal for mid-drives. I havent seen any around apart from a few factory Focus Bikes with a belt drive.
Looks like a very clean IGH. Looking to pair with Bafang BBS02 on a Cannondale Bad Boy.

Image
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by PRayB » Jul 03 2014 12:54am

I have recently assembled a bafang BBS02 500 watt system with the Nuvinci N360 on an Electra Townie. Have 400 miles on it and LOVE the way it shifts. The bike had a Nexus 8 on it to start with and it was a pain to shift... Required cutting the motor to shift. The Nuvinci shifts like a charm... Max power makes it a bit stif to shift but you don't need to shift while max torque is being applied because you are accelerating. When the mid drive gets up to the rpm of the particular peddle assist level you're in, you simply grab the shifter and dial in a little more gear... I am city commuting with a lot of stop and go and it is great fun. The CVT works great with the mid drive. Durability has yet to be seen. It is heavy but looks CLEAN. It is my first e bike and I am totally thrilled with it.
Bafang BBS02 500 watt mid drive on an Electra Townie with a Nuvinci CVT rear hub. LOVE IT!

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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by cal3thousand » Jul 03 2014 11:26am

eMax wrote:Has anyone tried the SRAM G8?
https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/g8

Interestingly it can be shifted under load which might make it ideal for mid-drives. I havent seen any around apart from a few factory Focus Bikes with a belt drive.
Looks like a very clean IGH. Looking to pair with Bafang BBS02 on a Cannondale Bad Boy.

Image

I haven't "tried" it, but I have one freshly laced into a 20" wheel for my Xtracycle Edgerunner middrive build. I will post my review in my thread.
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Supertux1 » Jul 05 2014 1:07am

I just pulled the trigger on a 750W Bafang BBS02 and I'm looking for an IGH to pair with it.

I read a lot about these things and what becomes apparent is that no IGH's can shift reliable under the load of a mid powered e-bike, even those that have marketing literature indicating they can be shifted under load. (The 100W your legs can do, sure. 1kW... probably not.)

The Nuvinci N360 is interesting but after reading reviews (there aren't many of those either) I am concerned about it's cons like weight, potential for fluid leaking, efficiency and the shifting mechanism. (cables/goofy right side only twist shifter.)

They've got an interesting electronic shifter called the Harmony, but only released to OEM for lower powered PAS-only bikes and hasn't shown up in 2 years:



Both of them seem like back-burnered projects.

I am starting to think that it will not be possible to shift ANY current IGH under the load of a powerful mid-drive (maybe a Rohloff...), so what's needed is some sort of electronic clutch to reduce the strain during shifting.

This was attempted with a new product called GearSensor http://gearsensor.com in this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =4&t=60963 but it too looks like it has some issues and may not work well with all IGH shifting mechanisms.

So what to do? Would the most practical approach to be sticking with a quality cassette/shifter/chain and just laying off the throttle (boo) when switching gears?
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Supertux1 » Jul 05 2014 1:12am

eMax wrote:Has anyone tried the SRAM G8?
https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/g8

Interestingly it can be shifted under load which might make it ideal for mid-drives. I havent seen any around apart from a few factory Focus Bikes with a belt drive.
Looks like a very clean IGH. Looking to pair with Bafang BBS02 on a Cannondale Bad Boy.
Here's a review/details. I'm also looking to maybe pair it with a BBS02:

http://sheldonbrown.com/sram-g8.html
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by mjoets » Jul 05 2014 1:22am

I have been using a Alfine 11 speed with a stock BBS-02. Though not recommended by the manufacturers it has performed flawlessly. I make every effort to shift with no power to the chain so anticipatory shifting is a must. I use it mainly on the road with lots of hills and I am heavy so it meets my needs.
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Supertux1 » Jul 05 2014 1:37am

mjoets wrote:I have been using a Alfine 11 speed with a stock BBS-02. Though not recommended by the manufacturers it has performed flawlessly. I make every effort to shift with no power to the chain so anticipatory shifting is a must. I use it mainly on the road with lots of hills and I am heavy so it meets my needs.
That's good to know, I would think that a lot of hubs are going to be like that -- lay off the throttle just like you would with a normal derailer and never
a problem for PAS only. I tend to avoid Shimano hubs because I don't like the centerlock stuff. (All my rotors are 6 bolt etc...)
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by greenspark » Jul 05 2014 1:39am

Supertux1 wrote:so what's needed is some sort of electronic clutch to reduce the strain during shifting.

So what to do? Would the most practical approach to be sticking with a quality cassette/shifter/chain and just laying off the throttle (boo) when switching gears?
I have a 300W BBS01 (that reads out 600W on full throttle) with a Nuvinci N360. It works. Period. No problems, it just changes the gear ratio.

Not sure what the effect would be of a 750W BBS02, but note that N360 warranty is not voided if used with a 250W Euro BBS01.

However an electronic clutch is a DIY job. Just splice an instant switch into the ebrake cable. An ebrake handle immediately cuts power, but it is an art to feather it just enough to cut power without applying brakes. So a switch that does the same thing but is not attached to the brakes is an electric clutch.

I also have a BBS01 on a 3 speed 1951 Raleigh DL-1 and I do feather the brake when downshifting up a steep hill. I find that going the other way (upshifting when going down hill) does not require a power cut.

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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by Supertux1 » Jul 06 2014 6:36pm

greenspark wrote:
Supertux1 wrote:so what's needed is some sort of electronic clutch to reduce the strain during shifting.

So what to do? Would the most practical approach to be sticking with a quality cassette/shifter/chain and just laying off the throttle (boo) when switching gears?
I have a 300W BBS01 (that reads out 600W on full throttle) with a Nuvinci N360. It works. Period. No problems, it just changes the gear ratio.

Not sure what the effect would be of a 750W BBS02, but note that N360 warranty is not voided if used with a 250W Euro BBS01.

However an electronic clutch is a DIY job. Just splice an instant switch into the ebrake cable. An ebrake handle immediately cuts power, but it is an art to feather it just enough to cut power without applying brakes. So a switch that does the same thing but is not attached to the brakes is an electric clutch.

I also have a BBS01 on a 3 speed 1951 Raleigh DL-1 and I do feather the brake when downshifting up a steep hill. I find that going the other way (upshifting when going down hill) does not require a power cut.

I'm considering the idea of a Nuvinci N360 paired with a servo driving the cables and a micro controller of my own (Arduino) coordinating a reduction of the driving load with changes in the gear ratio. Lots of possibilities there, including the ability to alter the ratio to find the most efficient / fastest speed ratio automatically with continually changing terrain etc...
Something like the Harmony system but with more integration with the drive electronics. I would like to get my hands on the Harmony servo mechanism but last I checked they are prototype and/or only sold to OEM....


I read somewhere that 3/4 of a turn on the Nuvinci shifter is all that is necessary to switch from low to high, I'm wondering how much travel in the cables is required to achieve that and how much force is required. (Will determine servo travel and force...)
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Re: Best internal gear hub?

Post by eMax » Jul 06 2014 7:11pm

greenspark wrote:
Supertux1 wrote: I also have a BBS01 on a 3 speed 1951 Raleigh DL-1 and I do feather the brake when downshifting up a steep hill. I find that going the other way (upshifting when going down hill) does not require a power cut.
Do you find that the three speed is enough for your riding? I'm thinking if im not climbing major hills then a wide 3 speed might be enough paired with the BBS02. It will definitely save some weight. Id does rule out doing some steeper singletrack on my bad boy though which i've enjoyed in the past.
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