Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

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John in CR   100 GW

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Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by John in CR » Mar 08 2010 9:47pm

If Luke and I managed to put over 15hp through this hub motor all sealed up nice and tight.
Big ass outrunner 1.JPG
Big ass outrunner 1.JPG (99.14 KiB) Viewed 3036 times

Just image how much power this other motor below can do in a ventilated form outside of the wheel. Look at that copper fill...and it's got hall sensors already. I figure 25-30hp easy, and a low enough Kv to go with a relatively small ratio reduction to the wheel.
Big ass outrunner 2 hall sensor side.JPG
Big ass outrunner 2 hall sensor side.JPG (89.26 KiB) Viewed 3035 times

It's already rigged for delta/wye via a mechanical switching mechanism shown here, though I'm going to do away with that and take the wiring outside.
Big ass outrunner 3 delta wye.JPG
Big ass outrunner 3 delta wye.JPG (77.4 KiB) Viewed 3036 times

Look at these fine laminations, a good 1/3 thinner than the other motor.
Big ass outrunner 4 lams.JPG
Big ass outrunner 4 lams.JPG (80.27 KiB) Viewed 3037 times

The magnets are thicker, stronger and longer too.
Big ass outrunner 5 magnets.JPG
Big ass outrunner 5 magnets.JPG (54.3 KiB) Viewed 3037 times

It comes in at 22lbs, but a lot of that cast iron has to go.
Big ass outrunner 6 housing.JPG
Big ass outrunner 6 housing.JPG (42.09 KiB) Viewed 3037 times
Last edited by John in CR on Apr 08 2010 9:46am, edited 1 time in total.

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12p3phPMDC   1 kW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by 12p3phPMDC » Mar 08 2010 9:54pm

John,

Cool...looks pretty good.

What's it off of?

TIme to chuck it up in a lathe and start reducing some weight, and take the wires out of the axle!
"If you don't follow your dreams, you might as well be a vegetable." Burt Munro

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 08 2010 10:06pm

Here is the video :mrgreen:

Thanks to LiveforPhysics for taking time to show us that beast.


Doc
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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 08 2010 10:09pm

Well.. this motor seem to be ready for torture test and multi kW!

We rarely see specs of these motors.. .. That would be nice!.. Nm per Ampere , max current, RPM per volt etc....

The only problem with it is that i would worry about overpowering it too much..

The Delta Wye switching frame is... in plastic!.. and plastic.... melt at overtemp!

Will you modify that?

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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I speak FRENCH and english

dbaker   100 kW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by dbaker » Mar 08 2010 10:28pm

Wow! Where do we shop for those motors? It must be for a motorcycle. Is this from one of your China sources? Lots of horsepower! What is the current draw unloaded?

Dave

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by John in CR » Mar 08 2010 11:31pm

dbaker wrote:Wow! Where do we shop for those motors? It must be for a motorcycle. Is this from one of your China sources? Lots of horsepower! What is the current draw unloaded?
Dave
Picked up on Ebay for $100 or so, from someone who couldn't get it going. I ran it with a sensorless chip on an underpowered controller, and fried the controller on the first run. I've just been waiting to learn enough to use it properly.

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by John in CR » Mar 08 2010 11:58pm

Doctorbass wrote:Well.. this motor seem to be ready for torture test and multi kW!
We rarely see specs of these motors.. .. That would be nice!.. Nm per Ampere , max current, RPM per volt etc....
The only problem with it is that i would worry about overpowering it too much..
The Delta Wye switching frame is... in plastic!.. and plastic.... melt at overtemp!
Will you modify that?
Doc
Doc,
Yes that plastic has to go. I'm going to take the 6 wires to the outside by going to an over-sized bearing and adding a steel donut (sorry I don't know the proper name) to the axle with holes to pass larger phase wires directly out. I'm not sure that's even plastic, and wouldn't be worried about temperature. I just don't think those mechanical switching connections can hold up to high power, and I want to get some airflow through the center of that stator for cooling. Since the motor is set up to handle both delta and wye, I want to retain that option, but do it with proper switching outside of the motor. I really want more gearing range than delta/wye offers anyway.

This thing drove a 300lb lead battery scooter, so on a 120-150lb gross weight bike, motor ventilated, 100 volt pack, and geared for a top speed of 45mph or so, I won't even need variable gearing or delta/wye. I'm not really into speed. It's acceleration and hill climbing that I want.

BTW, thanks for linking us to the vid. I didn't realize LFP had posted anything yet.

John

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etard   1 MW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by etard » Mar 09 2010 12:34am

That is truly cool!! Thanks for the vid, can you please show pics of the switching device underneath when you break it down? I would love to see how it contacts. Why not see how well the switching does until it breaks, and then tear it down? Fantastic!! You are having to much fun John, at least we can share in the pictures. :wink:

Hey, is that motor from a scooter that has a range setting or speed? Is this how that function is carried out?
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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by John in CR » Mar 09 2010 1:59am

etard wrote:That is truly cool!! Thanks for the vid, can you please show pics of the switching device underneath when you break it down? I would love to see how it contacts. Why not see how well the switching does until it breaks, and then tear it down? Fantastic!! You are having to much fun John, at least we can share in the pictures. :wink:

Hey, is that motor from a scooter that has a range setting or speed? Is this how that function is carried out?
It's from an Erato 2kw 2 speed scooter sold 2-3 years ago. For a while you could pick up the motors and controllers new as replacement parts for $300 and $200 respectively including shipping, but that was before I knew anything. I've been looking and haven't seen any other 2 speed motors. This thing has one aluminum cover, but the rest is steel and cast iron, so a scooter motor with a disk brake instead could be a good bit lighter. To find a good one, I'd look in the scooter forums to find those where the customers are happy with the range and speed. Those are likely to have the better designed motors. Then contact the companies to find out the motor weight.

Regarding the switching mechanism, it's all visible there in the video. That triangle loop of wire closest to the axle is the connection that forms the Delta, and WYE is when the other contacts are made. All the winding terminations are on that side.

If I was interested in just running it near the designed power, then I might give it a go as is, but the wiring harness has to be redone anyway so I'd want to go for the gusto. I have other hub motors at half the weight if I wanted to try moderate power in a stoke monkey type alignment. Plus I have the little ventilated Fusin that's 90% done too. I'm not a let's try this to see if it works type, because I'm no tinkerer. I like to build and use, and then build something else. I still have to learn some stuff about metal working with cast iron, and I have some other projects ahead of it in line.

First, I have to get my red rocket back up and running with a smaller wheel and ventilated housing, so that 15hp may turn into 20hp and run much cooler. That kind of performance is addictive, and is really amazing with the silence of a hub motor. Hopefully the coming projects with hub motor - chain - wheel prove to have similar sonics, because I'm not sure I'll like the vacuum cleaner sound. I'd much rather have to lose 10lbs for an identical power to weight ratio, than have a noisy ebike.

John

John in CR   100 GW

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Decision time

Post by John in CR » Mar 17 2010 3:25pm

100 volt controllers are on the way from Lyen, so now it's decision time. They're only 10hp controllers, so venting and maximum power have to wait.

1st decision (keep in mind I'm 240lbs):
- Try a minimal DS bike and just the 1 motor teamed up with a Nexus3 in a 20" wheel for lightweight fun, geared for say 35mph in 3rd, so should climb 25% grades with ease in 1st. Some off road potential, though no big jumps or anything.
- Same as above but add a big hubbie in 23" wheel on the front. Motorcycle headset, forks, and wheel motor assy is a 35-40lb weight increase. Hubbie drives me to 50mph, but takes a while with this controller at 20p pack, but going to 24p.
- Add monster to swingarm of existing rear hubmotor drive as a booster rocket for hubmotor takeoffs. Monster fits inside of swingarm, so easier mount. Rear brakes already solved with hubbie. Can go to a 3rd hub motor on the front. This would kill ALL motorcycles up to 1/8mi from red lights, since I would give them no advance warning other than an "adios" with a shit-eating grin as the light is about to turn green, so I catch them by surprise.

The first one sounds like fun, since I have an offroad trail and mountain 200 yards from my house, where I hear ICE dirtbikes cutting up daily. Realistically though I'd go 3-4 times for fun and get tired of being the old fat guy invading teenager territory. If the motor proves out at much higher power, then it would be better suited to a lightweight customer 2wd build where I get some lipo packs and really pay attention to the weight using DH bike components.

Swingarm decision:

Here's a strong and heavy (for a bike) swingarm with the motor bell housing fitting nicely, and I could run a 24" or 20" wheel without lengthening. Forget the bottom bracket stuff in the way, which will be moved elsewhere.
Big ass outrunner swingarm1.JPG
Big ass outrunner swingarm1.JPG (29.82 KiB) Viewed 2539 times
Here's a lighter triangle type swingarm, with a 20" on a Nexus3 already. Easy mods and the motor will fit in there.
Big ass outrunner swingarm2.JPG
Big ass outrunner swingarm2.JPG (26.43 KiB) Viewed 2539 times
Which route do you guys think I should go?

John

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dozentrio   1 kW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by dozentrio » Mar 19 2010 11:52pm

Triangle. Looking at that swingarm it doesn't look like the pivots are hefty enough. Think of all the twisting that those pivots will have to handle when you're turning under acceleration. They don't look large enough in diameter to handle the job. Just gut feel of course.

The triangle will hold up better under twisting because there are two joints, one above the other. The lower one being right next to the bottom bracket. Hope my description of "twisting" makes sense.

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by John in CR » Mar 20 2010 1:33am

dozentrio wrote:Triangle. Looking at that swingarm it doesn't look like the pivots are hefty enough. Think of all the twisting that those pivots will have to handle when you're turning under acceleration. They don't look large enough in diameter to handle the job. Just gut feel of course.

The triangle will hold up better under twisting because there are two joints, one above the other. The lower one being right next to the bottom bracket. Hope my description of "twisting" makes sense.
I like triangles too. I may have to fab some. Same goes for a pivot, because I'd like something with more width than those on bikes, but not as over-engineered as those on motorcycles. Plus, doing my own I can make it also a jackshaft for the pedal power. I want that extra stage for the pedals to get some crazy gearing range, especially at the high end.

Now that I think of it, maybe make it pivot around the motor axle. :idea: hmmm . That could save some weight and space, as well as get all the motor weight sprung.

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Re: Big ass outrunner 25hp at least

Post by John in CR » Apr 06 2010 1:50pm

I put the rotor housing on a weight loss program and cut off over 3lbs of cast iron. I've already got a 4cm x 7" aluminum disk to turn a new side cover. I'll go with an over-size bearing and make an steel disc with an ID of the axle and OD of the new larger bearing. I'll pass new large gauge phase wires through the disc and swiss cheese it for some air intake on that side too, though I want the other side to have my primary intake, so I pass some air through the center of the stator too. I'm starting with thick material on the cover to carve blades directly into the cover and take full advantage of centrifugal fan action for ventilation. Also I want the cover to be nice and strong for mounting the drive sprocket.

Here's the new lighter weight rotor and the ready to go Nexus 3 transmission with disc brake and sprocket with freewheel threading mounted. I guess I'll find out if those Nexus3's really are stronger than the other geared hubs. :mrgreen:
Big ass outrunner rotor and transmission.JPG
Big ass outrunner rotor and transmission.JPG (35.2 KiB) Viewed 2258 times

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