14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

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Andje   10 kW

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by Andje » Oct 24 2010 4:02pm

this soup can could open itself at about 20,000 rpm... you'd need a 50 stage reduction tranny.
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by katou » Oct 24 2010 5:10pm

I have a Dremel Moto-tool that operates up to 30,000 rpm, and it seems fine. Dental drills go up to 100,000 rpm, and they seem okay. My 1/4 hp jewellery rotary tool goes up to 20,000 and it hasn't exploded yet.

Would you care to explain your concern a little further?

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by recumpence » Oct 24 2010 5:50pm

This motor has been tested to 30,000 RPM without failure.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 24 2010 7:03pm

recumpence wrote:This motor has been tested to 30,000 RPM without failure.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 24 2010 7:26pm

recumpence wrote:This motor has been tested to 30,000 RPM without failure.

Matt

For this particular wind, that would take over 600v to get there (over because drag losses at those RPM's are not going to make KV stay linear). Not that there is anything wrong with that, as it would actually make an IGBT module a logical choice, and many are available that fit the bill.


It's kinda a bummer to see 50kv on a test motor though. For a given voltage limit fixed by controller limits, it won't offer power advantages (other than what it gets from cooling) over a 100kv version of the 3220, and even a 250kv version of a 3210 should be capable of similar power output. :( Because even if it's got the continuous torque rating of 3x 3220 motors, it's only going to be working with 12ft-lbs, and at 100v it won't have a snowball's chance at 14kw output (which would require 39ft-lbs at peak power of 2500rpms!)

Wind it for 250-300kv, and you'll get get 14kw continuous output. Unless you've got a secret high-voltage controller waiting for it, with a 50kv wind, it's kinda like if you got a 5306 hubmotor and hooked it up to 24v. The motor is capable of super high power, but unless you've got a way to feed it the voltage it needs to make it, it's not going to get it's opportunity to shine.
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by recumpence » Oct 24 2010 8:06pm

I believe it is 50kv in Wye. So, Delta would up that a bit.

Coleasterling has motor #2 wound at 100kv.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by rebelpilot » Oct 24 2010 8:22pm

Andje wrote:this soup can could open itself at about 20,000 rpm... you'd need a 50 stage reduction tranny.
Andje, I agree.
This motor probably would perform well (open up) at 20,000 rpm, and you would need a multistage reduction tranny to harness this power (and a high voltage controller).
It will be interesting to how these motor are utilized.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by johnrobholmes » Oct 24 2010 8:57pm

liveforphysics wrote:
recumpence wrote:This motor has been tested to 30,000 RPM without failure.

Matt

It's kinda a bummer to see 50kv on a test motor though. For a given voltage limit fixed by controller limits, it won't offer power advantages

It is my test motor for a light vehicle situation, and a motor that is a lifetime investment just as it will be for many people. More than two pounds lighter than my 3210 and recumpence drive unit, single stage geardown instead of three stage, and the same cost as my old setup that was PLENTY of power for a 30mph moped that is street legal with no insurance or property tax. Just because I can wind a motor up to 30k rpm doesn't I have to. I know you have too :lol: I am not looking to win a bunch of races, but I bet there will be many won with this motor.

Even at 100v this motor will still have some kick, and with some timing advance I could easily tic towards 13000 rpm on the motor in Delta termination. Even at 5000 motor rpm, a 22" tire is spinning 65 mph with a 5:1 reduction. I am trying to keep single stage reductions without stalling out the motor. We will see if it works, eh? If it is too slow to pull enough amps I will volt up and add more reduction, easy peasy. Should be very gentle on controllers if this is the case, right?

Smaller, lighter, has more thermal mass on the motor. What is not to love?

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by Hillhater » Oct 24 2010 9:33pm

katou wrote: Dental drills go up to 100,000 rpm, and they seem okay.....Katou
..
.. :shock: Ouch ! ..that is not OK. I dont wish to be reminded of that. :lol:
katou wrote: Would you care to explain your concern a little further? ..Katou
..I didnt read it as a concern,..more a humorous comment 8)
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by flyinmonkie » Oct 24 2010 10:11pm

That's a pretty big can of soup. I think coffee can might suit it better, high octane extra caffeinated coffee.

Clay

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Andje   10 kW

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by Andje » Oct 25 2010 12:08am

yeah sorry, was that ambiguous? i was trying to be humorous.

my implication is that to open itself via a soup can opener attachment it would need large reduction...

all i know about the specifics of this thing is from following the posts here :P excited am i.
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Oct 25 2010 12:52am

We'll be feeding this beast 120V nominal and well north of 200A if testing works out(which I am almost sure it will!).

Coffee cans are too big(I compared a few, ha!). The big soup cans are about right, but just a little small in diameter. Regardless, everyone else who has seen this thing immediately thought soup can for some reason. I dunno.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 25 2010 12:58am

coleasterling wrote:We'll be feeding this beast 120V nominal and well north of 200A if testing works out(which I am almost sure it will!).

Coffee cans are too big(I compared a few, ha!). The big soup cans are about right, but just a little small in diameter. Regardless, everyone else who has seen this thing immediately thought soup can for some reason. I dunno.
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 25 2010 1:03am

johnrobholmes wrote:Smaller, lighter, has more thermal mass on the motor. What is not to love?

It's all to love, and I love it, and I think it will be bad-ass. :) I just had my hopes up to see it be something with more power on tap than a normal 3220 is able to do.

And yes, you're absolutely right, in this configuration, it will be an absolute kitten on controllers. 12-fet will stay nice and cool, and be ultra reliable for it. Likely even a 6-fet would handle it fine. From extrapolating off the 3220 datasheet, the winding resistance should be well over 100mOhm, so it's like 1/5th the controller burden of driving the big HXT motor. The 100v shorted current for this motor is going to be well under 1000amps, and the rise time will be a nice gradual slope, so it should be friendly even to low PWM speeds, and super friendly to FETs. That's a really nice feature to have in a world where controller technology is lagging behind motors by a good bit.
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by drewjet » Oct 25 2010 5:57am

I thought "soup can" because you would be willing to eat soup for a month in order to save up enough money to buy it.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by johnrobholmes » Oct 25 2010 8:08am

liveforphysics wrote:
It's all to love, and I love it, and I think it will be bad-ass. :) I just had my hopes up to see it be something with more power on tap than a normal 3220 is able to do.

And yes, you're absolutely right, in this configuration, it will be an absolute kitten on controllers. 12-fet will stay nice and cool, and be ultra reliable for it. Likely even a 6-fet would handle it fine. From extrapolating off the 3220 datasheet, the winding resistance should be well over 100mOhm, so it's like 1/5th the controller burden of driving the big HXT motor. The 100v shorted current for this motor is going to be well under 1000amps, and the rise time will be a nice gradual slope, so it should be friendly even to low PWM speeds, and super friendly to FETs. That's a really nice feature to have in a world where controller technology is lagging behind motors by a good bit.

And their lies the problem, right? We can make a motor that will make a bike do backflips, but we can't get a reliable controller to power it that isn't 12lbs and the size of a large bag of chips. I wanted to go for reliable and easy to power instead of totally nutso, and so far this seems to be the lightest option I have can actually buy.

The 100kv motor will be used for more vigorous testing, and if you wanted to try and destroy some controllers I am sure you can get one made for you as well.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Oct 25 2010 10:19am

We'll be using a Kelly. Definitely not my first choice, but there's no other reasonably priced controller out there that can handle the power we want. We've used two Kelly's in the past and they have both given us fits. Supposedly the brushless controllers are better than the brushed. I sure hope so!

I think I can confidently say that we'll be pushing this motor A LOT harder than anyone else(after our initial testing has been done).

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by johnrobholmes » Oct 25 2010 10:52am

The hardest mine will get pushed is on a two person trike. It will be around 450 lbs and go about 40mph. It will be like a little go kart :lol: For that I will use a two stage geardown and get the motor speed up for sure.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Oct 25 2010 11:05am

Oh, I didn't mean you specifically, just in general when Matt gets production on it going.

That thing is going to fly! Probably a lot scarier than what we're doing with it!

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by johnrobholmes » Oct 25 2010 11:12am

Oh I know you didn't mean me. I'm not trying to represent a "power" user of the motor so much anyway. Just an average Joe who needs some transportation. And maybe a two person Katy Trail trike to take my girl on some fun full day rides, with "assistance" for the pavement on the way home.

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Oct 26 2010 12:04am

Well, I took some videos of some testing(determining the back emf constant), but my phone isn't cooperating. I'll post them up as soon as I can figure it out!

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by dequinox » Oct 27 2010 1:08pm

Please keep posting any test data on this motor. I'm considering suggesting this motor to my university's SAE Formula team for their new e-car build. This is the first attempt at designing an electric formula car so I'm excited to be working on it, and this little powerhouse just might have the right power to weight niche we need. Controller weight might be less of an issue on a 4 wheeled vehicle. Anyways, it will be exciting to see what this thing can do once someone gets it on a build.
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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Nov 01 2010 9:03pm

We've gotten more testing done and the actual Kv is around 102...Nice! The controller isn't in yet, but according to Kelly, should be in this week. After that, we can really start putting thing thing through its paces. I'll be sure to update as soon as the controller is in. The hall sensor mount is also made and the halls are ready to go in...Just waiting on the controller.

Now for something funky. I used the 4-wire method to measure the resistance between each set of phase wires in delta and it came in well under 20mohms...Seems really low to me. Does that seem feasible to yall? The setup was a power supply with the motor and a small lightbulb in series, with one multimeter measuring current and another measuring the voltage drop across 2 sets of phase wires. I let the system get to somewhat steady state, then took the voltage drop divided by the current to get the resistance. I did it with and without the lightbulb and got the same resistance, also. The equipment is top notch (Fluke 289, Fluke 43B), so that's probably not the issue if there is one.

Thanks muchly!
-Cole

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Nov 09 2010 1:28am

Hall sensors are mounted and the controller arrived today. We'll be getting it running this weekend!

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Re: 14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

Post by coleasterling » Nov 21 2010 9:49pm

The motor runs! However, poorly. It gets hot VERY quickly. Also, we can only get it to about 4.5krpms on 90V. I suspect timing is the issue. With our motor, we can't mount the hall sensors internally because there's too much balancing snot(just not enough room). I ended up having to CNC a disk to hold 8 magnets. I tapped the motor shaft and mounted the magnet disk straight to the shaft, then put the hall sensor mount on standoffs just outside of that. It works MUCH better than trying to read the rotor itself. We initially tried timing by just rotating the magnet disk alone, but because of the issues above, I am thinking we need to make the hall sensor mount rotate as well, so that the position of the halls changes with respect to the windings. I am CNC'ing a new hall sensor mount tomorrow and will report back soon. Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Cole

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