14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......

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Hey Guys,

Here are pictures of my new motor. This is not a one-off motor. I plan on puting these into production once fully developed.

Here are the specs;

Can length--- 4.5 inches
Can diameter--- 3.75 inches
Shaft diameter--- 1/2 inch (keyway shafts will be used)
Expected efficiency--- 94% (more on this later)
Continuous power--- 14kw
Burst power--- 25kw
Weight--- Under 7 pounds (expected)

Here is the story on this motor project;

About 4 months ago I approached Astro Flight to manufacture a 4.5 inch diameter motor to my specs. They already have experience with motors of this size. However, this was looking to be a $50,000 proposition. Hmm, that went by the way-side while I organized the group motor buy for 3210 and 3220 motors. At that point, my group buy sold out all of Astro's cans. Also, I have been ordering more motors than they can keep up manufacturing. So, we entered into an agreement to manufacture their cans. Once that happened, I began talking to Bob from Astro about merely making a new motor using his existing 32 series laminations (the laminations are the expensive item to develop and manufacture). He was all for it! So, to that end, these new motors are completely new other than using Astro Flight's already proven laminations and rotor design. However, the only parts used from them is the rotor and laminations. Everything else is new. Also, this new motor uses a 3 inch lamination stack, rather than their largest 2 inch stack.

For those who understand Astro Flight's motors, these new motors of mine are essentially a 50% larger 3220. The lamination stack is 50% taller (3 inch instead of 2 inch). However, the differences are;

1/2 inch keyway shaft with large OD bearings (Astro uses smaller bearings in their 32 series motors when special ordered with 1/2 inch shafts). Modular can allowing the wiring to exit the face or rear plate of the motor. Larger mounting screws with farther spacing. This motor can be rewound because both end caps can be removed, unlike Astro's motors.

Basically, this is a radically redone and expanded Astro motor that we make 50% in-house and Astro winds and installs the laminations for me.

The 94% efficiency is a number Bob came up with based on the 3220 motors. Most of them peak at well over 94% efficiency. Also, this is essentially one and 1/2 3220 motors. As such, it should be good for 14kw without active cooling, or 20kw with fans (even more in short bursts). This motor is 1.5 times the power of a 3220 with 3 times the cooling surface area giving a net 50% increase in cooling area per lamination size versus the 3220.

Anyway, this is not a one time thing. I have plans to make many of these motors. I have two on my bench waiting to be wound. One is for John Holmes and the other is mine. Once these are wound a tested and proven, I will begin manufacturing. These two motors are shipping to Astro to be wound tomorrow.

Lastly, John will be doing some sensor research and fitting on his motor. Once he determines the ideal system for sensors, I will put sensor kits into production. For sensored motors, the rear plate will have slotted mounting holes to allow that plate to act as a timing adjustment for the sensor assembly.

I figure we are about 4 weeks away from having these motors in hand and running and another couple months to work out sensor details.

Oh, I expect the sensorless motor to be $950 while the sensored version will be more depending on the amount of work and additional parts required. This is a 50% increase in power over the 3220 with a 30% increase in price. And the quality is higher along with the durability using far larger bearings and shaft.

Here are some pictures next to a 3220 for comparision.

Matt
 

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:shock:
 
HOLY DAMN.... :shock:

Have you considered doing a giant acme-style screw on the outer casing to allow for water cooling? :twisted:

These motors are sick, I can't wait to get myself a 3210 when a used one comes up for sale...but I'm kinda scared of this new monstrosity in all honesty. :mrgreen:
 
I have considered liquid cooling. However, with the efficiency being so high, it is not needed. Odds are this motor will not see temps higher than about 130 to 140 degrees with the worst abuse available on a bike.

Matt
 
Good stuff. PM me your Paypal info. I want to buy you a beer
tks
loCk
 
swbluto said:
I wonder how Agni, Mars and Etek compare?

Yes, definitely astounding.

Really good question. I haven't really thought much about it untill you asked. Well, the Agni is 24 pounds and 10kw continuous with 20kw burst and $1,400 to $1,500 dollars. But, the torque of that motor would be much higher due to the diameter.

Matt
 
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Stunning work as usual, Matt.
 
Awesome! I want one for my project. I'm still looking for a motor supplier. I'm not looking forward to having to get custom motors manufactured when we're ready for production. I'd definitely rather buy them from you. The cost might be a small issue at first, but maybe I can convince the investors that it's absolutely worth it because it's built here, by motivated, intelligent experts!

Maybe I'll order extra gears and design a reduction for your new motor, and the HK motor so when it comes out, I'll be ready. Any guesses on kV?

This is all assuming that you'd want to bump the quantity up and sell to a manufacturer. If you want to keep making them a few at a time, and only sell to DIY'ers, I completely understand.

Either way, it's very exciting stuff!
 
beefcake :shock:

D
 
Awesome motor Matt! I would assume the KV to be 33% less for the same number of turns as a 3220.

Great work on the can. Now it looks like an EV motor.
 
j3tch1u said:
beautiful motor, i like it! 30% over "group buy 3220" price would be even better :D

can you narrow the width and increase the density of the cooling fins? would provide more surface area.

The fins are .125" thick. I could take off .040" from each fin and add one more. However, I went this direction for two reasons;

#1 With a 6 to 7 pound motor, it would be easy to bend a fin if it was too small.

#2 This fin style is already more cooling than is (most likely) needed.

It is not out of the question, though. :D

Anyway, I am hoping to be able to market these to high power bike guys and light motorcycle enthusiasts as well. 1 of these would weigh 1/3 the weight of an Agni (maybe 1/4 the weight), cost 35% less, and have the same power with better efficiency. Of course, the peak power will be at a higher RPM than an Agni. But, not by that much. Heck, even if a primary reduction is needed for motorcycle use, that is not a problem considering the work involved in building a motorcycle that is truely useable anyway.

Also, I am trying to stay away from specing it too closely to Hal's huge outrunner. I do not want to step on anyone's toes. That motor is the "Big-Block" of the e-bike motors, while this is the twin cam V12. :mrgreen:

Matt
 
Very nice work, Matt.

Given that, in the past, the production bottleneck seems to have been in getting motors wound and assembled, have you thought of selling kits of parts to those who like to tinker and wind their own? Obviously you'd not want to badge them as Astro motors, I'd guess, to ensure that the good reputation they have doesn't get tarnished by a bad build, but I'm sure there are more than a few people around who'd like nothing better than a set of great parts to work with for their own build ideas.

Jeremy
 
Matt,

Very nice work indeed, like you said this motor will be available in a couple of months and i would really like to change my X5304 for this motor at the autumn. I like know the voltage operation for this motor and wich controller I can use with it.

Thank you
Black Arrow.
 
Wow thats beautiful Matt, well thought out and packing a punch! What kv's / voltages / amps are you looking at?

Paul :D
 
These things can be wound any way you want. I may stock a few "Standard" motors. But, my guess is that each customer will want something unique and I am ready to fill that order. Heck, if they want no fins, or longer fins, or a red can, or a blue can with bare aluminum fin edges. I could do pretty much anything a customer wants assuming they are open to paying for the added labor. Heck, I could eveh spec a titanium shaft, Ti screws, different mount screw threads......... The list is pretty much endless! Obviously a standard motor is easiest to deal with. However, since these are hand made one at a time anyway, I do not mind going custom once any bugs are ironed out.

Jeremy,

I am fine selling a motor kit. I have no problem with that. I would need to figure out the machining cost and lamination costs without winding to come up with a reasonable price on that.

Matt
 
Motor porn... 8) :mrgreen:

For something this big I'm not sure it is worth doing a sensorless version at all. To get anywhere near 14kW on a 12s/44V setup is going to require over 300A. Do you guys have an HV-400 in the works as well? :roll: This beast would be perfect for a 24s 100V configuration, running 150A.

-- Gary
 
We are looking at a few controller options (none are sensorless). Right now it looks like the most available sub 100v option will be a XieChang based controller with 4110 fets or similar. I will be installing this motor with a 5:1 single stage geardown on one of my bikes, and going from 50v up to whatever I can muster and handle. My motor is being wound at 50kv, and I think Matt will be trying one at 100kv. My goal is to have a motor that is 100% reliable with a single geardown stage. The secondary goal is a motor to kick everybody's ass at the death race. I think I can do both with this Astro/ Shumaker halfbreed.
 
How about an option to etch "750" somewhere on it? :D
 
How about a temp sensor? I like the look. I have an older full sized electric scooter motor ( vespa style scooter) that has a similar fin design. It also has a very cool looking end cap. I'll post pics tomorrow.
 
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