Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Burtie
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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Burtie » Mar 29, 2011 5:24 am

This stuttering at low speed (when phase currents are highest) *may* be the same problem I had with the 17.1 degree
external hall sensor arrangement on an 80-100.

Using this arrangement, some of the sensors are unavoidably placed in line with the stator teeth. In this location they are more suceptable to mag fields generated by the stator (which is bad).
When the phase currents get high enough, this can cause the sensor to react at the wrong time and produce the rough commutation and controller trips, like you are experiencing.

If you cannot cure the missfire by playing with the controller settings, you may need to move the hall sensors to a 120 degree, or 60 degree placement, and make sure they are in line with the stator slots, where they should get the cleanest signal.
From there, any timing adjustments can be achieved using your new electronic gizmo TA2 thingy.

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by gwhy! » Mar 29, 2011 6:02 am

Another thing to try to solve the stuttering before going to a different configuration with the halls is to try a very slight adjustment of the timing, I found that on my smaller motors that if you setup the timing up for the lowest no load current this didn't always work well under higher loads So a very small adjustment of the hall placement helped maybe as little as a 1mm adjustment is all thats needed.

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Thud » Mar 29, 2011 6:15 am

+1 for gwhys timing adjustment.
I find the low amp draw setting at top no load...then advance the timing till the amp meter shows an additional .2 or .3 amps that seems to get the most out of these...I recieved the Burties lil gizmo & hope to get time to adapt it to the race bike....truth is I am more anxious to use it onthe CA-120.

I need to re-visit the 60 deg spacing....i discoverd a bought the wrong hall sensors (in bulk no less) & i am happy again once I got the real 411a's in my cast brackets. more about that later.

congrats on the new speed record! get a speedo on it & lets see what she'll do 8)
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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 30, 2011 12:15 am

Kurt pmed me Monday telling me he had posted off a video camera for me, was told by the
postmaster it would be here Wednesday and, it was! THANKYOU Kurt, its a tricky little camera
and shoots some decent video and stills for a no name brand Kmart ? (i think you said ?) camera!
Very impressed! I tried it out on a few stills for GT-->
gtadmin wrote: After you work your way through the teething problems and have a spare 5 mins, a closeup of your very neat wiring would be appreciated. Can hardly wait to see the final product though! 8) Good luck with the fault-finding!
Here ya go mate, i assume you wanna see whats inside the black box too don't ya LoL :lol: if your
a good lil Kiwi i might just openz it and showz you some more copper bus barz that sitz neatly in there
joining all them big 8GA and 10ga charging leads together ;-)

Image
I ran out of suitably sized cable sleeving be assured all wires will be sleeved when bike is re-build post beautification. I have used a 7 pin plug coming out of the junction box to connect all the wiring to the bars.

I also shot some video (for another thread but will post it her also) shows the low speed throttle control
and how smoothly it runs, now i must say i have farted around with this for the best part of the morning
changing phase currents and moving the hall bracket ever so slightly.



I have all but eliminated the stuttering i was experiencing, lifting the phase to 135 and battery
current to 57 has also given it a tad more poke still nothing to write home about, just noticing now
my Parameter design software stops at 160 on the phase and 57 on battery i gather there is newer
versions? not even sure what version this is got it from Lyen though either way i see still some room
for improvement i haven't even heated anything up other than the front brakes
literally had smoke pouring from them after stopping yesterday from speed, i have
some fork oil thats trickled down onto the pads, was scary but cool too see the smoke haha...

@Thud...re" 120 and 60 degree internal hall sensor spacing, as you have advised this is hit and miss and
halls cant be put willy nilly between stator poles with the delta terminated motors i will continue on
with this 17.14 degree external setup as mentioned above it seems to be playing the game quite well
now albeit lack of punch i'm used to with hv160 ESC's Unable to get accurate readings i only have an
extremely old Drain Brain (pre-cycle analyst) it worked fine while connected to its original 30amp shunt
when i was using it bench testing this setup, plugged into the Infineon with the 'hacked' CA wires its
waaaaay off...either way, i'm definitely more pleased after a mornings tinkering, i think with more
phase and battery programing ability it will definitely be adequate for the time being ThudSTeR... :: wink ::

DiD i mention how fuckin AWESOME a two speed dog box is fellas?! :-P Save you pennies bois a lil birdie told
me there might just be a couple available soon in the for sale section <--(bet that has an effect on your pms ThudSTaR 8) :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: P )

Anyone give me the run down on why GWhy suggested using 18fet settings i haven't been able to get in touch with him to discuss it?

KiM

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Mar 30, 2011 12:30 am

AussieJester wrote: Unable to get accurate readings i only have an
extremely old Drain Brain (pre-cycle analyst) it worked fine while connected to its original 30amp shunt
when i was using it bench testing this setup, plugged into the Infineon with the 'hacked' CA wires its
waaaaay off.
IIRC, the shunt is 2.4milliohm in the 12FET Lyen, so you might check the CA(DB) shunt setting. I think the external shunts on them are 1milliohm, but make sure you write down whatever it is set for now so you can change it back if you re-use it with the external shunt later. ;)

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 30, 2011 12:55 am

amberwolf wrote:
AussieJester wrote: Unable to get accurate readings i only have an
extremely old Drain Brain (pre-cycle analyst) it worked fine while connected to its original 30amp shunt
when i was using it bench testing this setup, plugged into the Infineon with the 'hacked' CA wires its
waaaaay off.
IIRC, the shunt is 2.4milliohm in the 12FET Lyen, so you might check the CA(DB) shunt setting. I think the external shunts on them are 1milliohm, but make sure you write down whatever it is set for now so you can change it back if you re-use it with the external shunt later. ;)
Cheers for the info AW unfortunately for me at least (i think) it won't be correct for the 12fet infineon i have due to the mods on the shunt, that sound right? Lyen added and extra shunt plus the two originals.

KiM

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Mar 30, 2011 1:25 am

Ah; if there's another shunt included, then (assuming it's the same as the originals), it should be easy to calculate what it is. I suck at math, so this is probably wrong. :lol:

2.4milliohm for original pair of shunts in parallel gives 4.8milliohm per shunt. 2.4 x 2 = 4.8

4.8milliohm per shunt with three in parallel now gives 1.6millohm for total shunt value. 4.8 / 3 = 1.6

You could try that value and see if it comes up close to what you expect. :)

Oh, also, you could temporarily reconnect it to it's original shunt (and set to the original value), and stick that in series witht eh batteyr to contorller connection, and see what it reads, to compare.

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by gtadmin » Mar 30, 2011 1:48 am

AussieJester wrote:...I tried it out on a few stills for GT-->
gtadmin wrote: After you work your way through the teething problems and have a spare 5 mins, a closeup of your very neat wiring would be appreciated. Can hardly wait to see the final product though! 8) Good luck with the fault-finding!
Here ya go mate, i assume you wanna see whats inside the black box too don't ya LoL :lol: if your
a good lil Kiwi i might just openz it and showz you some more copper bus barz that sitz neatly in there
joining all them big 8GA and 10ga charging leads together ;-)
...
KiM
Thanks maaate :D Kiwi? :? Glad you're getting rid of them bugs

Cheers mate,
GT

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 30, 2011 1:59 am

gtadmin wrote:
AussieJester wrote:...I tried it out on a few stills for GT-->
gtadmin wrote: After you work your way through the teething problems and have a spare 5 mins, a closeup of your very neat wiring would be appreciated. Can hardly wait to see the final product though! 8) Good luck with the fault-finding!
Here ya go mate, i assume you wanna see whats inside the black box too don't ya LoL :lol: if your
a good lil Kiwi i might just openz it and showz you some more copper bus barz that sitz neatly in there
joining all them big 8GA and 10ga charging leads together ;-)
...
KiM
Thanks maaate :D Kiwi? :? Glad you're getting rid of them bugs

Cheers mate,
GT

Soz mate i mixed you up with with someone else, you would be the crow lover i presume as in Adelaida Crow lover?
or we a Port Power boi? THe later are coming up for a thrashing this weekend when the West Coast Eagles hit town :mrgreen:

KiM

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by gtadmin » Mar 30, 2011 2:05 am

AussieJester wrote:... you would be the crow lover i presume as in Adelaida Crow lover?
or we a Port Power boi? THe later are coming up for a thrashing this weekend when the West Coast Eagles hit town :mrgreen:

KiM
I'll answer that by "Go Eagles" (at least this weekend :lol: )

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 30, 2011 2:15 am

gtadmin wrote:
AussieJester wrote:... you would be the crow lover i presume as in Adelaida Crow lover?
or we a Port Power boi? THe later are coming up for a thrashing this weekend when the West Coast Eagles hit town :mrgreen:

KiM
I'll answer that by "Go Eagles" (at least this weekend :lol: )
HAHAHA Crows suck just as bad as Port Power :mrgreen:

@AW RE: Drain Brain calibration... i also forgot to add, i have negative " - " sign in front of the amp reading whats with that any clue? I would need help on the calibration method i read the manual regarding it ....alas i'm a retard and not exactly sure how to do it still... I thought i would get a new CA from Justin when funds allow and reconnect the 3 wires i removed from the Infineon CA lead when doing all the wiring... Will need to get Lyens help with that :: sigh :: me and wires i dunno if they are not in use i have to remove them or it bugs me LoL

KiM

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Mar 30, 2011 2:55 am

AussieJester wrote:@AW RE: Drain Brain calibration... i also forgot to add, i have negative " - " sign in front of the amp reading whats with that any clue?
Probably just means that the Shunt+ and Shunt- wires are swapped at the controller connector (either inside the controller or at the connector either on the controller end or the DB end). These are the blue and white wires on pins 3 and 4 for my connector, but I don't know for sure what colors they are on yours.



I would need help on the calibration method
I wish it was as easy as with the newer CAs, but it isn't. I got this far, and then got lost:
1) Turn power off to the DB (or system if DB is powered by it)
2) While holding the button down, turn power on.
That ought to get you the SET WHEEL CIRUM screen. If so, let go of the button and then:
3) Press and hold the button until it moves to next digit, repeating until it is at the option to switch between KM and Miles.
4) Keep holding the button, until it shows CALIBRATE.
5) Call Justin. :lol: Seriously, I have no idea what the next paragraph is telling me to do, either. :oops:

In the newer CAs you just enter the milliohms of the shunt and off you go, usually. :(




and reconnect the 3 wires i removed from the Infineon CA lead when doing all the wiring... Will need to get Lyens help with that :: sigh :: me and wires i dunno if they are not in use i have to remove them or it bugs me LoL
I don't know either; probably they can be left alone, but I'd ask him to be sure.

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Harry Highpants » Mar 30, 2011 3:19 am

totally brilliant. total envy.

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Burtie » Mar 30, 2011 3:30 am

Hi AJ,

I am pleased you are getting the external 17.1 deg spacing to work for you :D
This is all looking very,very nice. Good job man!

Burtie

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Hyena » Mar 30, 2011 4:23 am

AussieJester wrote:Anyone give me the run down on why GWhy suggested using 18fet settings
If you flash it as an 18 fet it scales everything up assuming you have 18 fet hardware. (I think it's just the shunt value) I don't know the exact ratio of difference but I'm pretty sure if you program it for say 50 amps as an 18 fet you'll find it's actually doing 80 amps or so with a 12 fet. The phase currents would be similarly scaled I imagine. Try programming it at 50 amps first to be conservative and see what you actually show on the watt meter. Alternatively adding a few fine strands of wire to the shunt will have the same effect (but don't solder a solid lump of copper across it like you did last time :lol: )
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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Burtie » Mar 30, 2011 4:52 am

Hyena wrote: if you program it for say 50 amps as an 18 fet you'll find it's actually doing 80 amps or so with a 12 fet.
Hi Hyena,
I agree with what you say, but I think the effect is reversed.
Because the 18 FET ctlr has more shunt links (lower resistance), it will generate a lower voltage across the shunt for the same current.
When the controller is programmed as an 18 FET unit it will expect a lower voltage across the shunt, than if it was programmed as a 12 FET. So, programming a 12 as an 18 will lower the current limit.

I think you might want to try programming the 12 FET as a 6 FET unit, That way it will give you a higher current limit.

Probably not as high as a solid lump of copper on the shunt though :?

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by gwhy! » Mar 30, 2011 5:53 am

Hyena wrote: Alternatively adding a few fine strands of wire to the shunt will have the same effect (but don't solder a solid lump of copper across it like you did last time :lol: )
No this is not the same effect, There are 2 levels of cutout on these controllers there is the software settings and there is a hardware/hard wired setting, by programming a 12fet as a 18 will increase this hardware/hardwired setting, But as burtie have said it will reduce the actual current being pushed out than what the software settings for current is set for.

Edit:
But what I am unclear about, is that AJ controller is a modded 12fet and it has had a extra shunt installed by lyden so the question needs to be asked what is the actual current that is being pushed out because if it was programmed as a 12fet ( with 12fet current settings ) these will not be what is actually being delivered ( so if set for 50A battery in software would actually be delivering around 70A battery if programmed as a 12fet) but if programmed as a 18fet then the current should tally up :?

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Thud » Mar 30, 2011 6:15 am

Kim has indicated Lyen added another surface mount shunt to the lower side of the board...without a quality meter & set up there is no way to determine the current shunt resistance. So any different board configs (18-24-36) tested will require starting over to hopefully stumble upon a sweet spot.

Kim. PM Lyen for his current version of parameter designer...you can crank the phase amps up high enough to "flash bulb" 4110 fets....& cook 3077's like pop-corn :mrgreen:

EDIT: i re-read & i see the stuttering is not an issue anymore......Just looking for that arm streaching, kick in the butt out of the hole. :mrgreen:

If your still getting the throttle cut out fault. solder a 1k resistor over the top of C20 capacitor (just to the left of the big electrolitic in the center of the board)
that will stiffen up the throtle problems.
get some......

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by rodgah » Mar 30, 2011 6:27 pm

lookin good man,

all this fuss about sensors and settings ugh.....hv160 it is for me again lol. why oh why cant castle just make a hv320 twice the size of hv160 an even if it doesnt actually support twice the power atleast it would be almost bulletproof using a 3220 or hxt. oh and i see you used the ebike standard rape tape, it may be black but its still the same :lol: at least its not supporting the completeness weight of the lipo battery :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 30, 2011 7:41 pm

rodgah wrote:lookin good man,

all this fuss about sensors and settings ugh.....hv160 it is for me again lol. why oh why cant castle just make a hv320 twice the size of hv160 an even if it doesnt actually support twice the power atleast it would be almost bulletproof using a 3220 or hxt. oh and i see you used the ebike standard rape tape, it may be black but its still the same :lol: at least its not supporting the completeness weight of the lipo battery :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Cheers

The 12 fet is improving i "found" :: wink wink :: some new Parameter design software with increased limits i will now
have settings capable of blowing the Infineon...obviously this is a bad thing LoL... OH not "rape tape" either its 'race tape' from SuperCheap Autos Rodgah :-P I ran out of time to fit the alumnium angle to the end plates that will ultimately hold the packs in place, one of many things on the 'to-do list on re-assembly, for the group ride and testing the current method will suffice.

Cheers for the input regarding the 18fet settings to fellas...i shall continue on upping currents etc with improved version of Parameter design software, i actually am getting to the point its acceptable for now, it will be rock solid reliable at current settings and can more than keep up with traffic and haha first gear ooooh first gear friends show me a hill and
ill show you how an e-bike is MEANT to climb slopes, she would climb any hill in front of her alllll daaaaay long without complaint :-P 2 Speed FTMFW :P :lol:

I'll be back with some more info and i have some video shot last night by drunk friend using the 'new' video camera kindly donated by Kurt, things roxz in video mode! Mick wasn't able to make it with weekend footage hoping he will drop by today.

KiM

EDiT:





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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by flyinmonkie » Mar 31, 2011 5:05 am

Excellent... Another convert to the darkest side... Gears.

Looking good Kim, gears are required for hilly areas. Actually, I wouldn't be with out them even in flat area now that I have had them. I find 3 to be excellent, but 2 is better than one.

Your neat battery set up and wiring has inspired me to design and build a new battery box that will allow me to carry twice the batteries, but more on that in my thread.

Can't wait to see all CF and finishing touches.

Clay

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 31, 2011 5:41 am

flyinmonkie wrote:Excellent... Another convert to the darkest side... Gears.
Theeeeres the Kiwi :-P ........not really a 'convert' seeing everyone of my e-bikes
has had gears at one time or another, the trikes both had 6 speeds the cruiser 3
until i changed hubs and now this with the 2 speed BUT the previous
were all driven through the bikes 'original' gearing this is the first with the
gearing independent from the bikes original chain drive/gears. I totally agree gears are the shot
hence one of the reasons why i continue to push chain drives not frocks... ;-) Having a reduction drive with gears
mate, its just the ultimate win for e-bikes hands down, no issues with chain alignment that occur
with cassettes no blowing internally geared hubs anymore, ThudSTaR 8) is 'legen'..."wait for it".....'daairy' :mrgreen:
I will look into a cable for changing gears until such times i can get help from Jermey Harris with
the circuit he made to drive the servo i was to use for the gear change, he is a busy chap at present.
Rodgah suggest a Rock Shox PopLoc to change
gears, load up the 2 speed with a spring to hold it in 1st gear, the poploc to change to second,
shall order one next week for now unfortunately i have to stick with the lever which is a bitch for
my unbalanced self i have to go very easy when i take one hand off the bars balance is NOT good.

Looking forward to the ride tomorrow around the river on bike path no traffic
with Matt.P Timma2500 Sico and Princes Jay :mrgreen: (and anyone else
that would like to come)

Shall report back tomorrow evening hopefully with vids and pics of the ride :-)

KiM

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by Hyena » Mar 31, 2011 6:03 am

Yeah better get that gear shift sorted mate, I'll be at the other end of the road on my frock motored bike in the time it takes you to change :P
The downhill video looks mighty rapid on the approach but I bet even a wheelie bin would roll down that hill fast :mrgreen:

There'll be one more joining us for tomorrow - Kevin, a bloke I built a kit for.
Just zipped up my bag and at the last minute realised I'd forgotten the gopro! Just as well, I'd be sleeping on the street if I forgot that :lol:

How much current did you end up squeezing out of the infineon ?
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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by flyinmonkie » Mar 31, 2011 6:10 am

Have fun on the ride bois. No serious injuries this time. I'd come if I could be there, but I am stuck here running a national rock climbing comp this weekend. Can't wait to see pics and vids fromt he get together.

Clay

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Re: Custom Build... 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser

Post by AussieJester » Mar 31, 2011 6:23 am

Hyena wrote: How much current did you end up squeezing out of the infineon ?
Well i think its on 140 phase 57 battery now Jay but i'll have you check out that i am doing the programing right in the morning. I tried riding around in second on the hills today goes up everything but strains it and feels gutless still doesn't heat motor up and controller is yet to get remotely hot, though my rides are short shall test it tomorrow on a long 20km trek Jay see how it goes, i have no meter connected will bring along the drain brain around half trip see how its doing. I am getting more used to the bike each ride but changing gear in current setup for me is hard, you will manage it fine even with your 'unkoness' LoL... I have to not get over confident too soon need to get used the it is ALOT tipsier than the cruiser due to the seat height still so much more fun to ride than the cruiser hands down...

Cya in the morning HiGHSiDE :P

KiM

p.s i think? ...the non frocks outway the frock powered bikes tomorrow too Jay :lol: Paul, Matt, Myself though Matt does have some frockness too :: sigh :: :mrgreen:

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