Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Ricky_nz   10 kW

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 07 2010 4:25am

7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
The ADC at 200ksps could be good with a pair of sample and hold circuits on the two phase current measurements.
Do you need to go to 500k sps for each Current signal or would 100k sps do?
More the merrier, if the AD7862 doesn't blow the budget.

Did you consider an AD with SPI on the Power board near the Current Sensors.
Just went overboard on ADC, better to have too much rather than not enough. I really wanted the simultaneous sampling feature.
I didn't find an SPI adc with simultaneous sampling that I liked and using one on a parallel bus makes it possible for me to determine exactly when the currents are sampled.
I want to play around with sensor-less vector control so extra performance and control is always a good thing.
The SPI idea would be good for keeping noise from the switching board out of the critical current inputs though by localising the analog signal path.

I figured cost wise the ADC is cheep compared to the MOSFETS and since I would rather the controller be done right than done to a price point. for say a smaller 6-FET controller the micros on chip ADC's could be used but they are quite slow when you have to use a mux on them to get the 2 currents.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
What's your target electrical RPM?
You had mentioned "Turnigy 80-100 to over 8500RPM mechanical (1000Hz) "
Yes I'm targeting 1000Hz operation for sinewave sensorless vector control but I will also probably do a simple sensored trapesium control mode that allows much faster operation.
I will of course try and go faster but I expect losses in the motor to rise at some point. The 1000Hz means I need to have my software current controller running at a significantly higher rate to get any resemblance of a sinewave and it is this that will limit it in sinewave mode.

Since the electrical RPM supported its is entirely dependent on the processor performance and since I'm estimating this until I have some more control code written its all a bit of a guess. I say 1000Hz electrical as I am confident based on whet I have seen so far with this processor and comparisons to a TI DSP I use at work. It should be able to do better than this.

edit: 1000Hz electrical -> 1000 electrical rev per second -> 60000 RPM electrical.

I have got most the software infrastructure in place to allow easily switching between modes of operation.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
Will you have other AD inputs on a connector pins
eg Throttle, Brake,
1 wire - Multi button sensor for Cruise Control (1k-Econ/2k-Set/4k-Resume/8k-Acc/16k-Decel)
I have exposed 2 ADC inputs on the control connector for throttle and ebrake along with a few digital IO lines so it would be a matter of programming to use them for any desired purpose.
For my bike I'm planning to do a separate dash controller and to connect it to the motor controller over a CAN bus interface but having the option to use a simple resistive setup could be handy for testing or for less complex setups.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
Will your electros be on the Top or bottom with the Fets?
Just wondering about the Stabilty of the Bus for the Left hand side Fets.
You could also allow several small LOW esr cans over the Fets so its distributed.
(Just noticed you new posts on extra Bus Caps)
If the holes are their you can choose to fit them or not. More the merrier.
I am concerned about keeping the +vbus and 0vbus well decoupled. I thought about caps above the + side FETS but they may interfere with where I need to build up the traces with braid for the phase outputs.
The electros and leaded MKP caps will be mounted on the top side but the SMD MLCC will be on the bottom side with virtually no track length. I'm hoping the SMD caps are enough to hold things together.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
You might want to leave space with Solder Resist gaps for track thickening.
Yes that is planned, I've been leaving that till last but I will expose areas of the phases and the + and - bus polygons once I have no other changes to the board.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
Be carefull with High currents through middle layer copper.
Vias can help with heat build up and stopping track burnout.
This is something I'm a bit concerned about. currently the only currents in the inner layers are because of paralleling with the external +bus and -bus polygons but getting the heat out is a problem as you say. I may add a few more vias to help get the heat out. Hopefully using thick copper on the outer layers and beefing them up with braid will prevent issues by providing a lower impedance path than the internal fills or at least altering the current split so most flows on the outside.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
Have you found a Heasink bar thickness that''s standard. Say 10mm x 30mm Bar.
Or as others have suggested, using mini link bars for the twin FETS on the low side that are at U,V &W potential (oh you've got A,B & C)
This way you don't need insulated pads behind the TO247AC (if used) you put them behind the three minibars (... I'm thirsty :lol: )
Will the heatsink need to be fastened to the PCB?
There doesn't appear to be any holes for this?

Also the Heastink can be a current path the Tab and center Drain Pins.
But be careful it doesn't make the Drain Leg a main current path to a Capacitor.
Some times happens if battery positive is linked to heatsink.
I haven't looked for a standard heatsink bar but I have fund a heatsink that comes in a 100mmx150mmx30mm which would work nicely behind the board.
I decided to avoid the complication of having a bar run along the +ve fets and then having to insulate the bar from the heatsink.
There is a set of pads for standoffs around the edge of the board (3 per side) with a few in the middle that may not have shown up too well in the images I posted that will be used to support the PCB.
7circle wrote:Marvelously mezmarizing R-NZy
As you know too many ways to blow you self up (sick of ...skin the cat analogy)
So please ignore my comments if they bug you. (Splat....*...)
... Don;t ant to drive you crazy with my rants''
It's look ace.
My cats not too fond of the skin a cat analogy either :lol:
No problem its good to see others views especially since they can sometimes prevent expensive mistakes. Sometimes the mere fact of answering someones question can highlight an issue (happens all the time between me and other software engineers at work).
Since this is by far the highest power electronics I have designed myself there is definitely a chance of design problems.

Hopefully I havent missed anything. If I have or if you have other questions or suggestions fire away :)

Ricky
Last edited by Ricky_nz on Nov 07 2010 8:23am, edited 2 times in total.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 07 2010 5:01am

Power / IO board IO connector pinouts

Control Connector:
control-connector.GIF
control-connector.GIF (3.26 KiB) Viewed 3079 times

Motor connector:
motor.GIF
motor.GIF (2.43 KiB) Viewed 3081 times
The 3 hall inputs can also be used for a rotary encoder if the software is written to use the CPU's hardware support for that.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by 7circle » Nov 07 2010 10:04am

I can understand that the ADC having diff+/- and simultaneous sampling will help deal with the head ache of aligning phase measurements.
Building your own analogue FET switches to make your own Sample and hold front end is tough too.

Using remote ADC with SPI and relying on Serial commands to start sampling would be annoying, but using a digital trigger signal to start CONV is not that uncommon.

The Cortex 12bit 200k 8 channel has a lot of features, like DMA. I'm sure once you stablize the control loop withthe external ADC you'll then be able to decide if the internal ADC has sufficient capacity.
Looks like you don't have to shut down the Core to get accurate measurements like some older uCro's needed to do, causing massive delays in control loops.
And is another good reson for you choice of external ADC.

So I wonder what type of Current sensors your using.
Do you need to buffer these signals?
Do they justify 12 bit 500k S/s.
Its a long trace run pack to the AD though all that war zone of 75V to 100V PWM and 100A currents with ripple.
Then through a connector or ribbon lead with no adjacent analogue ground wires. Hopefully is a soldered dual row header to the top Brain Board.
So differential input will be limited.
Image

If you like even bets you could put a third AD on the power board.
What's wrong with the AD7861 its the same as the ADS7862 but with a serial interface.
Or even better the ADS7863 is pin compatible with ADS7861 (oops was 7862) with more features.
It can operate with just 4 control signals or more for extra speed etc.
It has variable Ref D-A output, very good for gain control.

1000Hz sample with 32 samples per cycle would be 32000 sps

So with (Edit .... I'll leave the DSP calcs to you, my brain's not up for it yet.)

Its a challenge, but it looks like your up for it.

7¢ :wink: (Edit I'm learn'n too much slow down ... )

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 09 2010 2:05am

7circle wrote:I can understand that the ADC having diff+/- and simultaneous sampling will help deal with the head ache of aligning phase measurements.
Building your own analogue FET switches to make your own Sample and hold front end is tough too.

Using remote ADC with SPI and relying on Serial commands to start sampling would be annoying, but using a digital trigger signal to start CONV is not that uncommon.
True, using the parallel one Is quite nice in that I can read it quicker
7circle wrote: The Cortex 12bit 200k 8 channel has a lot of features, like DMA. I'm sure once you stablize the control loop withthe external ADC you'll then be able to decide if the internal ADC has sufficient capacity.
Looks like you don't have to shut down the Core to get accurate measurements like some older uCro's needed to do, causing massive delays in control loops.
And is another good reson for you choice of external ADC.
Yes. I put the overkill ADC on the control board also because I have some other projects I plan to use it for but for the motor controller It may be possible for cost reduced versions to use the cortex on chip ADC.
Currently on my power board I have most ADC inputs assigned. I may have one of the cortex ones free. If so I will take you sueestion to put it on the control connecter.
I can't check now. The schematic and pcb are in windows and I'm currently in Linux. I will check later tonight when I go back into windows to tweek the layout.
7circle wrote: So I wonder what type of Current sensors your using.
Do you need to buffer these signals?
Do they justify 12 bit 500k S/s.
Its a long trace run pack to the AD though all that war zone of 75V to 100V PWM and 100A currents with ripple.
Then through a connector or ribbon lead with no adjacent analogue ground wires. Hopefully is a soldered dual row header to the top Brain Board.
So differential input will be limited.
ACS758. If they don't work I can use some external ones. They have 120 kHz typical bandwidth.
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products ... bers/0758/
Any extra ADC performance can be used for oversampling to reduce any noise issues etc.
I have just put a +/- 200A one of these in a box with a couple of brass bolts and a 5V regulator so I can use it as a current shunt for my meter and scope :D much cheaper than commercial solutions and it works for both AD and DC.
These are single ended output centered on 1/2 VCC.
The trace runs past the control connector on the side of the board and has a ground plane that is separate from the high power section. This long trace issue does concern me a little but I have organised things so a couple of cuts with a knife and I can run screened lines from the CT's directly back to the digital board. I coulden't put the CTs at the bottom of the board as the pase leads would have interfeared with the digital board.

The digital board will sit 15mm above the power board on stand-offs so no long cables. I probably could have put a few more grounds around that area but the digital board is made so I'm kind of stuck with it for now. If there is issues there are enough grounds that I could rig up some kind of shield.
All ADC lines have a very small filter on the digital board before the ADC which should kill noise spikes without slowing things down. Also I should be able to control the ADC so that it samples at a relatively low noise point which combined with oversampling if necessary should help a lot.
7circle wrote: If you like even bets you could put a third AD on the power board.
What's wrong with the AD7861 its the same as the ADS7862 but with a serial interface.
Or even better the ADS7863 is pin compatible with ADS7861 (oops was 7862) with more features.
It can operate with just 4 control signals or more for extra speed etc.
It has variable Ref D-A output, very good for gain control.
I probably wont for this power board.
I do have an SPI connector on my control board but it doesn't come out the main PCB connector so If I want to do a different power board I have SPI available. Originally when I did the digital board design I had decided for ultimate speed parallel was the way to go and since that board is working I'll leave it how it is for a while. I need to have the CT lines come to the digital board anyway for the high speed hardware current trip for when the software loses control.
Another issue is the speed of the SPI interface is limited on the LPC (just like TI TMS320F28335 etc). At the rates I'm looking for SPI could become an issue. The IO pins on the LPC top out at 20MHz (check?). I also wanted to simplify some of the software for controlling when things are sampled. this is probably no real reason that I couldn't be used, just not in the scope of what I was looking for at the time.
I can have the values in the micro is <1us after sampling on the parallel one and to match that would require 24MHz or more on the SPI bus.
I'm not sure I would want 24MHz running accross the power board to the CT area either.
The other thing is I may have had other limitations that I have forgotten as my original design for the control board was for the LPC2368 and I changed at a late stage after most of the board was layed out and moved some things around. ( the oh shiny, must have that problem. I decided that was the final change to the DSP board and left it at that). Actually 120MHz vs 72 MHZ when I want very high control rate didn't leave me much choice.
7circle wrote: 1000Hz sample with 32 samples per cycle would be 32000 sps
Yep I'm thing the ADC will be read at at least 8KHz probably running even faster. The PWM rate will probably be 12KHz or faster and if possible I may run the ADC at that rate! the faster things run the better the current control of the motor will be.

I'll be tapping the knowledge of some of the gurus at work that have designed motor drives for a previous company :D.
I have a reasonable understanding but some of the finer details I will have to lean on them.
My day job involves writing code to drive 150KVA 3 phase inverter modules that are paralleled up to the several megawatt level.

From what I know I should have enough time on this processor at 120MHz to run critical control code at at least the 8KHz rate.


EDIT:
One other point I think I missed is that by keeping all the digital and high speed stuff on one board I have protection networks on all lines that leave the digital board. All input lines can tolerate 100V connection as they are protected with a clamping/limiting network (not all at once but on a single line).
Outputs because of impedance issues cannot have quite as much series R so a lower but still significant voltage could be connected and result in no damage to the digital board or just damage to the protection parts. These assume no impedance external to the digital board is involved.
Its a balancing act as series impedance must be kept low but to limit damage if the inevitable happens is a good thing.

EDIT:
From some of the app notes about these sensors a piece of copper can be used in parallel with the internal slug if more then +/-200A is required. No special shunt wire is required as the internal slug is measured in uR due to using a hall sensor. They even give one example if a sensor attached to a copper bus bar with a notch in to reduce its width next to the sensor. Of course increasing the maximum current reduces the sensitivity meaning less accurate current readings from the ADC.
I will probably save this modification for when I want to make a turnigy 80-100 glow like a lamp :twisted:
Last edited by Ricky_nz on Nov 09 2010 4:47am, edited 4 times in total.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 09 2010 3:00am

More parts:
A few large lugs and a heatsink arrived today :)

The size of the heat-sink shows the whole size for my controller PCB.
The heatsink is 100mm x 150mm and my pcb is 92mmx145mm.

here is a few photos for comparison

Control PCB sitting in correct location relative to heat-sink. in reality it will be 15mm above the power board that will be 10mm above the heat-sink
There will be 4 40mm high electros mounted on the power board so they will set the total thickness of the controller at 90mm thich including this heat-sink. This heat-sink may be overkill on the bike but rather than start small I figured a bigger one for bench testing where there is no wind and then reduce the fin length for the final install on the bike if it dosen't cause any heat issues.
ctrl-heatsink-100_2792.JPG
ctrl-heatsink-100_2792.JPG (28.49 KiB) Viewed 3014 times
Some comparisons with the back cover of a Golden motor magic 50A controller (really 30A continuous,l 50A peak as I understand it) uses 6x TO-220 MOSFETS.
Note that my controller used 12xTO-247. Lots of power in a small space! I like a challenge!
size-1-100_2794.JPG
size-1-100_2794.JPG (26.32 KiB) Viewed 3016 times
size-2-100_2795.JPG
size-2-100_2795.JPG (19.71 KiB) Viewed 3016 times
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 09 2010 6:31am

I didn't have a complete list in one place so here it is for quick reference with a few more comments than the annotated connector pinout.
Current ADC assignments on my power board
ADC channel    Description
      0              +15V monitor
      1              unassigned    <- Has a HW trip comparator. maybe tie to +V Bus monitor
      2              Throttle
      3              Brake
      4              Heatsink Temp
      5              Motor Temp
      6              Phase A I          <- HW trip
      7              Phase B I         <- HW trip
      8              +V Bus monitor  (Dosn't really need to be this fast but speed allows better
                                     protection under fault conditions).
      9              unassigned    <- could bring out to one of the input pins on the control
                                     connector but I suspect there isn't room for another trace.
                                     There is a tight spot in the layout in the way
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
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2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by matt_in_mtl » Nov 09 2010 6:40pm

Excellent thread Ricky, top notch!

You may have stumbled on it already, but I think you may find this blog interesting:
http://scolton.blogspot.com/search/label/3ph

He is doing the most thorough work on BLDC and BLAC motor design/controller design that I have seen (granted, i don't have an IEEE membership).

Anyways, keep up the good work, hope you find the link usefull.

-Matt

PS:Don't know if you know of them, but ST's STM32 line of ARM (cortex M3) micros is also quite interesting.. and cheap too. Also, you can get a dev board for nearly nothing:
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICA ... 277245.pdf

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 11 2010 7:25am

matt_in_mtl wrote: You may have stumbled on it already, but I think you may find this blog interesting:
http://scolton.blogspot.com/search/label/3ph
He is doing the most thorough work on BLDC and BLAC motor design/controller design that I have seen (granted, i don't have an IEEE membership).
Interesting link, I'll have to find some time to read through it. Its always good to see what others are doing with the technology.

When I was looking around I ended up using the LPC1769 cortex m3 but there is definitely a lot of other processes like the ST around with useful hardware integrated to aid motor controllers. Years ago I would have probably just used a TI DSP but since GCC is pretty good for ARM and TI charge for their DSP development tools something cortex m3 based was an easy choice.
The chips are relatively cheep and with good free dev tools and cheep jtag debuggers available the cortex m3 based chips are great.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
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2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by etard » Nov 13 2010 11:14am

This is a great write up Ricky!! I am lost in the tech language, but am reading through it anyway in the hopes that something will stick. Thank you for posting this up.

I was just wondering if you could give a short synopsis on what has been accomplished thus far in layman's terms. It looks like you are near completion on the board that monitors and controls the gate drivers and FETs, is this correct?

I'm sure you will have a market for this monster if you decide to sell kits or something, hopefully this will fill a niche and give some the opportunity to see 20 hp on an ebike! 8)

Also, if you want I have what is called a "top hat" adapter that shifts the sprocket inward toward the spokes giving room for your disc brake as well on the same hub flange. Here is a pic:

Image

Image

You could then use washers along with a smaller disc to get the necesary clearance if this is not enough room.
Four wheels moves the body, Two wheels moves the soul
Thanks to Justin @ http://www.ebike.ca He brings the soul to ES

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 13 2010 8:42pm

Hi etard
etard wrote:This is a great write up Ricky!! I am lost in the tech language, but am reading through it anyway in the hopes that something will stick. Thank you for posting this up.
I was just wondering if you could give a short synopsis on what has been accomplished thus far in layman's terms. It looks like you are near completion on the board that monitors and controls the gate drivers and FETs, is this correct?
I'm sure you will have a market for this monster if you decide to sell kits or something, hopefully this will fill a niche and give some the opportunity to see 20 hp on an ebike! 8)
I probably need to create a glossary of some of the terms.
Ok current progress simplified, there are two circuit boards.

Control board (the brains)
Build and tested with a basic operating system that can read voltages from its inputs and access a micro SD card. Basically enough to know the hardware is working. I need to find time to write the software soon.
This board has a 120MHz LPC1769 microprocessor to do all the number crunching.
It also contains a decent ADC (analog to digital converter) to allow accurate and fast measurement of signals from the Power board below.
Need to spend some time getting the USB software working but the hardware is correct.

Power Board (The brawn)
This board contains:
a) gate drive circuit to turn the 12 MOSFETS on and off reliably.
b) IO connectors and interfacing. mainly converts input voltages into suitable ranges for the control board.
c) current measurement in two of the phase wires using a DCCT = Direct Current Current Transformer. A hang over from ACCT. an AC CT really is a transformer whereas a DCCT is actually a hall effect device measuring the current in a wire magnetically and electrically isolated. By measuring the current in two phases I know the current in all three.
d) NTC - Negative temperature Coefficient resistor used to measure heat-sink temperature and an input for one attached to the motor windings.
e) 5A 15V power supply. This is used to run the gate drive circuit and to feed the on board power supply on the control board. There is an output of this 15V on the control connector so I can be used to run lights etc. The control board monitors the 15V to ensure that it is always high enough to allow switching the MOSFETS.

I have finished the circuit diagram for this board and have the circuit board designed on the PC.
I just need to make a couple of minor fixes and then give it a final very detailed check before ordering.
I'm doing that right now so maybe I'll order on Monday :D, Once I order it it will be at least 12 days until I have the bare boards in my hands.
Maybe I can be building up power boards and debugging over the Christmas break :twisted:
I will take powering up the board quite slowly to avoid costly mistakes!
I will test the individual parts listed above in isolation where possible.

I will probably build up a small batch if there is interest once I get the software running unless someone is keen sooner.
I really would like to recover some of the board setup costs for this hobby project :lol:
Once I have the current control and power board combination working it would be easy to make a different power board and run the same control board/software.

Have I missed anything?
etard wrote: Also, if you want I have what is called a "top hat" adapter that shifts the sprocket inward toward the spokes giving room for your disc brake as well on the same hub flange. Here is a pic:
You could then use washers along with a smaller disc to get the necessary clearance if this is not enough room.
Sounds interesting. I could be interested in buying one if the dimensions make it easy :). Since I don't have a lathe that was the one part I was considering paying an engineer to make but if you already have one it would be good and would save on having a custom one made.

Is the outer part big enough diameter to bolt a kart sprocket onto? ie around 150mm diameter or would it need a plate to bring it out to that diameter.
Yout top hat part looks pretty solid as I imagine it needs to be to cope with loads of pulling from a chain offset to one side.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 14 2010 8:41am

Making progress on PCB. I think I have done the last major changes and its looking pretty good :D .
Plenty of pinning layers together where necessary.
It passes DRC (Design Rule Check) apart from 4 pad clearances which are caused by the EP footprint under the synchronous buck converter which is a limitation of the package.
The gap is actually sufficient but I was using bigger clearances to avoid unnecessary limitations on voltage. The on board 100V -> 15V converter can be disconnected to allow higher voltages and by disconnecting this from the input voltage the clearance issues disappear. It would be possible to patch in some form of pre regulator but a small external switch mode converter would be preferred.

I need to do a final check of footprints etc but late at night isn't the time for that so that can happen tomorrow hopefully.

I just fed the board data into PCB cart
the setup costs for the board is 235 USD so I don't want any mistakes!

Not sure how to get the plate through slots for the CT into the gerber correctly for PCB cart.
I read somewhere that you can set altium to output drill slots or routes.
Oh well thats a problem for Monday.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
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More PCB changes

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 15 2010 6:31am

I was just about to starting a final check of footprints etc and while looking at the board deciding where to start I realized that there was still room for more caps across the +VBUS and 0VBUS right next to the MOSFETS. Not big ones but 1206 but I figured that it was worth adding these as I can always leave them off when assembling the board if they prove unnecessary.
So the board just gained another 6 SMD capacitors right across the MOSFET pairs. These are within approximately the length of an 0805 caps pads from the center of the MOSFET +Vbus and 0vbus pads. The reason they are not closer is because of the other SMD cap that they are in parallel with :lol: .
I will more than likely put 10n or 100n caps in these new positions. There is solid fill connecting these caps to the +vbus and 0vbus so it should all be very low inductance.

So much for finishing checking the board today :lol:.
Oh well I can't see any more space for caps across the bus and haven't thought of anything else to add so let the checking begin!

I'm also down to one clearance error only :D and that's the one under the synchronous buck converter chip that I can't improve but it is adequate anyway.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 15 2010 6:57am

Good choice on adding more cap. :) A board can never have too much cap. :)
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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 15 2010 6:15pm

liveforphysics wrote:Good choice on adding more cap. :) A board can never have too much cap. :)
Very true and if there isn't enough then I can stack them being SMD :)
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by ev_nred » Nov 15 2010 9:34pm

epic!!! nice job man!!! :mrgreen:
sorry for asking a stupid question, any idea on if and when your going to be selling these monsters? if so how much well u be selling them for? thanks

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 16 2010 3:31am

ev_nred wrote:epic!!! nice job man!!! :mrgreen:
sorry for asking a stupid question, any idea on if and when your going to be selling these monsters? if so how much well u be selling them for? thanks
I Will probably sell a small number at some point. They will be hand built initially.

I need to get the power board up and running. I have given myself a target of hall effect based trapesium motor drive running by the end of the year provided I get the power board ordered in the next few days. I will road test this on my GM 1000W hub motor at 57V or more if I order more lipo batteries.

Before I could sell any I need to ensure the design not only works but works for several boards and is reliable which should happen early next year.

I will keep working on software after basic functionality works. The software in the control board is user update able. I just need to finish the bootloader and It should be a matter of plug into a usb port to update software.

My plan is to start with a simple Trapezoidal hall sensor based drive and then as a separate operating mode develop full vector control including a decent sensor less one that works with sinewaves. I will probably keep some of the software proprietary but I can also provide a basic runnable set of sourcecode based on freertos that configures all the IO etc that can be used for others to implement anything they want, I would provide information as necessary.

I have not worked the cost out yet. I've been too busy getting the rest ready. I will probably start working out costs when I order another batch of parts after the first power board works but there is no way this could compete with the e-crazyman chinese controllers on price but it will provide a lot more protection and features :D .
As I would be buying limited numbers of parts and some of the parts are more specialised for example the shunt in the ecrazyman is probably a few cents where as the CT's in this are more like $7 from memory. My first batch of MOSFETS was painfully expensive. Hopefully If I buy more it would come down.

There could be another option for those that like building to buy bare PCBs of the power stage and a programmed micro board. That would allow a lot of customisation.

I can see NZ post taking a premium to ship it overseas :roll:, I might have to investigate the options there.

Edit:
I've got to think about how to test the power electronics to full power without having the sensor less algorithm that I need for the 80-100 initially. I have a few ideas and should be able to drive it to full current short periods or time. The GM hub should be a cake walk for this controller to not only run but barbecue :lol: so I will have to get the turnigy going fairly quickly and maybe run 2 motors and controllers back to back so I can circulate power. We may have 240V mains here but you can still only pull 2 or 3KW out an outlet so many tests will have to rely on batteries.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 16 2010 5:24am

My PCB checking has payed off :lol:

Just found I had used the wide package for the gate drives where as they are a mento to be narrow soic-14 :oops:

The fix is relatively minor as the pinout is correct, just the spacing between the rows of pins.
Just one trace can't co under the device anymore and shunt the pull down resistors around and it passes DRC again :)

This could have been hacked on the board but would have been one ugly mod :lol:
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by AussieJester » Nov 16 2010 7:37am

Ricky_nz wrote:I Will probably sell a small number at some point. They will be hand built initially.
Well...i don't understand 99% of what is said in this thread WaY above my head but i did understand the above ^^^
if theres a list put me on it please i would definitely like to try your u-beaut controller out Ricky_NZ

best of luck with the continued design/build work mate i shall keep following along possibly at some
point it will "dumb down" to my retarded level of understanding and i can offer some form of input haha..

KiM

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 17 2010 9:43am

AussieJester wrote:
Ricky_nz wrote:I Will probably sell a small number at some point. They will be hand built initially.
Well...i don't understand 99% of what is said in this thread WaY above my head but i did understand the above ^^^
if theres a list put me on it please i would definitely like to try your u-beaut controller out Ricky_NZ

best of luck with the continued design/build work mate i shall keep following along possibly at some
point it will "dumb down" to my retarded level of understanding and i can offer some form of input haha..

KiM
Looks like you started the list :). no problem with that.
It would be great to see one of these controllers on one of your creations at some point.

Once I get the first prototype running I'll need to decide on the interest level so I can decide how many more to build and work out costs so a list of interested people is good.
Also puts you in the queue when I start building them as it will depend on my available time.

I'll try remember to put up simplified summaries up so you can follow the progress without knowing all the gritty details and don't worry, things will definitely dumb down as I hit the mechanical part :lol: ( I specialise in electronics and embedded software).
If it says too complex for too long feel free to prod me to put up a summary :)

I will also have to make some form of user documentation for it.

Hopefully I don't end up with any entertaining explosion videos as I test and debug this controller :lol: .
I will keep the camera rolling at key moments just in case.
I want this controller to be electric and not internal combustion :lol:


When I started the thread I wanted to keep the details of the controller in bike together so put it in non-hub but maybe it should have been in technical.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 17 2010 1:05pm

The checking is going well. No more footprint issues have shown up.
The library parts look good so far.
Not so happy about my solder mask cutouts that allow for beef up critical tracks yet. Just need a bit of cleaning up to look nice. They are functional but could look nicer :).
I have started doing test Gerber plots to check that I have the settings right and so far it looks ok in GerbMagic.

One crucial check:
100_2831_small.JPG
100_2831_small.JPG (30.1 KiB) Viewed 2151 times
Yes it does line up with the control board when printed 1:1 :D.
The top right corner is fine, its just the angle of the photo
Guess that also means my tired Laserjet 5L is still managing to drag the paper through evenly.
It has an issue where the paper pickup pads grab all paper in the in slot when there is about <20 sheets left and trys to feed the lot through at once. I really need to buy a new printer, 3 pages per minute doesn't cut it any more. I have had a lot of use out of this printer though, brought it at the end of 1996 and its still running.
I won't buy a vertical feed laser again though due the the feed issues. Its 1MB of memory isn't ideal anymore as it was always marginal at 600dpi.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 20 2010 12:49am

It took a bit longer than expected to get the PCB ready to order. But since nothing will happen if I order it now I will order it Monday to allow for final checking of the gerbers files on Sunday.

I found a minor issue in how I handled the enable signal to turn on the main switching converter.
While solving that minor issue I decided to see if I could implement the shutdown after X time feature suggested in another thread (thanks). Turns out with my fix It becomes really easy :D. It will mean that to enable the feature you must sacrifice one of the general purpose outputs on the control connector so I will not put the link on the board so if the feature is not needed the output pin can be used for some other purpose.

It is a simple matter of adding a wire link between 2 pins of the control connector.
The start switch must then be momentary which isn't ideal but that can be managed. I have some ideas that won't require PCB changes to cope with normal switches.

This works because the enable pin must be pulled low to turn on the converter.
Once its on the micro can hold the pin low until it wants to turn off. This will reduce the idle power of the whole motor drive to micro amps :D which should provide a measure of protection to any unprotected batteries. This is especially important with a controller like this where it is impracticable for a BMS to disconnect the batteries.


The LM5116 switching converter draws 10uA in standby and if I add in the power consumed by the DC bus voltage sense resistors the total standby current is about 260 micro amps :D.

Edit:
While checking the PCB I had a good look at the" Molex Mini-Fit Jr" connectors I'm using for the control and motor interface connectors and with the larger size crimps installed they look like a really good connector to use for balance taps where a reasonable of current is required to pass. The PCB pins are 1.4mm diameter. They have a latch to prevent accidental disconnection.
39-01-2120_sml.jpg
39-01-2120_sml.jpg (4.81 KiB) Viewed 2235 times
39-29-1128_sml.jpg
39-29-1128_sml.jpg (5.95 KiB) Viewed 2235 times
They are reasonable small and are a much better connector than the JST-XH connectors.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
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2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 20 2010 8:05am

For those interested in techo details is a crude BOM output to give you some idea of the parts I've chosen.
Not all caps will be fitted if testing proves some are unnecessary as there is a cost consideration.
I have specified some nice MLCC caps but they are quite pricey :lol:.
I guess its the price you pay for high power.
Comment	Description	Designator	Footprint	LibRef	Quantity
"680uF/100V"	"CAP 680UF 100V ELECT FC RADIAL EEU-FC2A681 "	"C1, C2, C3, C4"	"CAPPR7.5-16x25"	"Cap Pol3"	"4"
"100n"	"Capacitor"	"C5, C10, C12, C20, C27, C29, C30, C31, C32, C33, C38, C39, C41"	"CR2012-0805"	"Cap"	"13"
"100n"	"B32620A5104, B32621A5104J, Capacitor"	"C6, C7, C8, C24, C25, C35, C36"	"RAD-0.4"	"Cap"	"7"
"1uF"	"1uF Y5V +80/-20% MCCA000305, Capacitor"	"C9, C13"	"CC2012-0805"	"Cap"	"2"
"10uF"	"10uF/20V 1206 / Case A  T491A106M020AT"	"C11, C28, C40, C63, C64, C65"	"TC3216-1206"	"Cap Pol3"	"6"
"10uF/100V"	"RUBYCON  100YXF10M6.3X11"	"C14"	"CAPPR2.5-6.3x11"	"Cap Pol3"	"1"
"10uF/25V"	"Polarized Capacitor (Surface Mount)"	"C15, C16"	"1812"	"Cap Pol3"	"2"
"100nF"	"Capacitor"	"C17"	"3216[1206]"	"Cap"	"1"
"1nF"	"Capacitor"	"C18"	"CR2012-0805"	"Cap"	"1"
"33pF"	"Capacitor"	"C19"	"CR2012-0805"	"Cap"	"1"
"10n"	"Capacitor"	"C21, C34"	"CR2012-0805"	"Cap"	"2"
"390pF"	"Capacitor"	"C22"	"CR2012-0805"	"Cap"	"1"
"9nF"	"Capacitor"	"C23"	"CR2012-0805"	"Cap"	"1"
"1uF 100V"	"18121C105KAT2A"	"C26, C37, C42, C43, C44, C45, C46, C47, C48, C49, C50, C51, C52, C53, C54, C55, C56"	"CD4532-1812"	"Cap"	"17"
"10n 100V"	""	"C57, C58, C59, C60, C61, C62"	"CC3216-1206"	"Cap"	"6"
"conn_36"	""	"CN1"	"HDR2X18"	"conn_36"	"1"
"ES1D"	"Default Diode"	"D1, D2, D3, D4"	"SMA"	"Diode"	"4"
"MMSZ5226BS-7-F"	"DIODE ZENER 3.3V 200MW SOD-323 MMSZ5226BS-7-F"	"D5, D6"	"SOD323"	"D Zener"	"2"
"Header 12"	"Header, 12-Pin"	"IO"	"MOLEX 0039291128"	"Header 12"	"1"
"P0751.223NLT"	"P0751.223NLT inductor Pulse engineering"	"L1"	"SMD_INDUCTOR"	"Inductor"	"1"
"Header 6"	"Header, 6-Pin Mini-Fit Jr 5569    Molex 0039291068 Male pins RA header PCB flange mount"	"Motor"	"MOLEX 3x2 0039291068"	"Header 6"	"1"
"IRFP4368"	"N-Channel Power MOSFET"	"Q1, Q2, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8, Q9, Q10, Q11, Q12, Q13, Q14"	"TO-247 - bottom face to PCB"	"NMOS-2"	"12"
"IRF7494"	"HEXFET N-Channel Power MOSFET"	"Q3, Q4"	"SO-G8"	"IRF7494"	"2"
"BSS86"	"BSS86"	"Q15, Q16"	"SOT89"	"BSS86"	"2"
"PBHV9115T"	"PNP Bipolar Transistor"	"Q17"	"SOT-23B"	"PNP"	"1"
"330K"	"330K/200V 1206"	"R1"	"3216[1206]"	"RES"	"1"
"10K"	"10K 0805, Resistor"	"R2, R36"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"2"
"10R"	"Resistor"	"R3, R8, R9, R18, R19, R24, R25, R26, R29, R30, R38, R43, R44, R54, R55"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"15"
"0R"	"Resistor"	"R4, R7, R13, R45"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"4"
"110K"	"Resistor"	"R5"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"7K32"	"Resistor"	"R6"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"100K"	"Resistor"	"R10"	"3216[1206]"	"RES"	"1"
"1M"	"Resistor"	"R11"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"13k7"	"Resistor"	"R12"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"3K01"	"Resistor"	"R14"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"1k21"	"Resistor"	"R15"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"1K"	"Resistor"	"R16, R17, R22, R27, R28, R37, R51, R52"	"2012[0805]"	"Res"	"8"
"0.03R"	"Resistor"	"R20"	"3216[1206]"	"RES"	"1"
"19K1"	"Resistor"	"R21"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"287K"	"Resistor"	"R23"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"1"
"2K2"	"Resistor"	"R31, R32, R33, R39, R40, R41, R42"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"7"
"100K"	"Resistor"	"R34, R46, R57, R59"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"4"
"NTC"	"Resistor"	"R35"	"RAD-0.1"	"RES"	"1"
"100R"	"Resistor"	"R53, R56"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"2"
"47K"	"Resistor"	"R58, R60"	"2012[0805]"	"RES"	"2"
"0R"	"Resistor"	"R61"	"3216[1206]"	"RES"	"1"
"LM5116"	"LM5116 Wide range synchronous buck controller"	"U1"	"TSSOP20EP"	"LM5116"	"1"
"IRS21864"	""	"U2, U4, U6"	"SO-G14/G3"	"IRS21864"	"3"
"ACS758xCB-200"	""	"U3, U5"	"CB (Allegro DCCT)"	"ACS754xCB-150"	"2"
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by grindz145 » Nov 20 2010 8:41am

Awesome!! I don't know how I missed this!
I think it's because you hid the coolest controller build thread to date with a build thread. 8)

keep up the good work!

What are you using for layout?

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by Ricky_nz » Nov 20 2010 8:51am

grindz145 wrote:Awesome!! I don't know how I missed this!
I think it's because you hid the coolest controller build thread to date with a build thread. 8)
Yep. Started a build thread but so far there has been more controller dev than building of the bike :lol:.
I wanted to keep them together but maybe it should have been in the tech section.
This controller is not non-hub specific :lol: it could surly cook a few hub motors if it runs properly.
I think the controller is the bigger part by far but the mechanicals will be the slow part for me.
grindz145 wrote: What are you using for layout?
Altium Designer
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Re: Rickys Keewee stealth RC bike buildlog/controller dev

Post by grindz145 » Nov 20 2010 9:48am

I knew that automatic BOM export looked familiar :mrgreen:

I started using Altium not too long ago for work. It owns.

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