Cortina Revisited

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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drewjet   10 kW

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by drewjet » May 27 2011 6:03am

Awesome build. Somehow missed it the first time around.

I have one of Matts reduction on my bike as well. For the Throttle problems I had, I found that going to a finger throttle helped alot over having a twist throttle. Ridding it alot also helps getting used to it as well. Also i am geared a bit lower as my top speed is about 31. Also i have Delta Wye switching on mine, so when I am off roading and need beeter resolution I switch to Wye and now top speed is only 20 MPH. I don't have the slipper clutch, but from my understanding of it, it should not be slipping too often, I think you may be set too loose.

Tell me more about the 3 speed. I am assuming that both peddle and motor power are going through it. How is it holding up? Do you shift much with it?

I bought the SRAM dual drive for mine, but elected not to use it as I was afraid all the power that the Astro puts out would destroy it.

Great build!

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » May 27 2011 8:42pm

Thanks drewjet,

So far not much to say about the Nexus 3. Seems to work OK. Have not really pushed it to the limit a lot. I will say that with both the human powered and motor powered system with this drive is problematical.

I am waiting for my Cycle Analyst before I push the bike too much - don't want to fry my batteries.

A buddy might race the Cortina at Willow Springs next month so that will test it for sure. I am thinking about setting up a 24" wheel I have to run as a one speed and taking this along to the race so if the 3 speed croaks I have an alternative.

For the race I will gear it for about 45 and after the race I will gear it down to about 40 tops.

Are you using any kind of throttle electronics to help with the jerkiness or just the finger throttle.

Thanks again for dropping by,
Roy

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by AussieJester » May 27 2011 8:55pm

RWP wrote: Are you using any kind of throttle electronics to help with the jerkiness or just the finger throttle.
What throttle interface are you using, the size of the box you have there looks like one of EV Logix Throtlizers? If so get rid of it ASAP and get a kit from Matt i.e Astro servo tester and BEC... Performs 100 times better the Throtilizer .

KiM

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » May 27 2011 9:13pm

AussieJester wrote:
RWP wrote: Are you using any kind of throttle electronics to help with the jerkiness or just the finger throttle.
What throttle interface are you using, the size of the box you have there looks like one of EV Logix Throtlizers? If so get rid of it ASAP and get a kit from Matt i.e Astro servo tester and BEC... Performs 100 times better the Throtilizer .
KiM
Kim, I am using a BEC and Astroflite servo tester. Just put it in a plastic kit box.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by drewjet » May 28 2011 4:36am

Thanks for the 3 speed info. No I am not using any electronics to help the throttle.

To me it seemed with a twist throttle that as the bike accelerates, and with an Astro they accelerate Hard, that the g forces would tend to twist my wrist making it worse. With the finger throttle I have 3 fingers and a thumb holding on to the bar and use just my fore finger on the throttle. For me it worked much better, especially offroad where I mostly ride it.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by etard » May 28 2011 10:32am

I can't wait to see this bike at Willow Springs, it looks like one of a few marketable bikes on ES, lots of love and craftsmanship shines through. ES might have a better turnout at Willow Springs than we did at the DR, with 2 Recumpence drives! 8) Awesomeness!
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » May 29 2011 5:39pm

etard wrote:I can't wait to see this bike at Willow Springs, it looks like one of a few marketable bikes on ES, lots of love and craftsmanship shines through. ES might have a better turnout at Willow Springs than we did at the DR, with 2 Recumpence drives! 8) Awesomeness!
Hey etard,
Thanks for the kind words on the Cortina. As you know these things are a labor of love - I have never fabricated stuff before and each time it's a real stretch. I am grateful for having good manual skills and a good eye, and ES to set the pace, but every time it seems like an uphill battle - not always choosing the right tool for the job or simply guessing about how to do something.

On another subject...
I think we, ES guys, need a full suspension CrMo frame something like those BoXer's the stinky motor guys use or...(gotta be careful here BiMoPed from the motorbicycling.com forum is razzing us for needing stinky generators for our "clean machines" :lol: ). But something that is a basic platform we can all use/abuse to base our various creative beasts on. These oddball sections and alu are thwarting our development me thinks. Something standardized would be good, I think. It will breed lots of competition and creativity. Bring it on. I'd like it to have some kind of mid transmission like the Alfine (Zerode) hub at the swing arm pivot and maybe the BB is a bolt on thing so, once the controller issues are solved we can choose either light-weight motorcycle or motor/human hybrid bicycle.

Shifting gears again...
Really looking forward to meeting you and the other ES guys at Willow. Tim, my friend who will ride the Cortina, is a great guy who has run 600's at Willow a few years ago. Should be a real blast. I have been looking at motorbicycling.com and some of those builds are simply beautiful - not my cupa tea mind you - but the workmanship and design are over the top gorgeous - these guys really know how to put a project bike together 8) :mrgreen:

Roy

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by etard » May 29 2011 6:37pm

Yes, you do have a good eye, your work shows this.

I think we, ES guys, need a full suspension CrMo frame something like those BoXer's the stinky motor guys use
I was thinking this same thought this weekend, and I believe others have voiced the same opinion in multiple posts. There is a framebuilder on www.pinkbike.com that builds downhill cromo frames, and he has even done an electric hub frame that has 48 volts of SLA in the frame so he might be willing to make us a frame if we ask politely. When I get home on my computer to navigate that site better, I will pm you with some links so as not to clog up your thread.

No fair Roy, you hired a 100 lb. Jockey to run your race for you. :lol:
Safe would be proud...
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » May 29 2011 6:46pm

etard wrote:No fair Roy, you hired a 100 lb. Jockey to run your race for you. :lol: Safe would be proud...
:mrgreen:

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 07 2011 2:14pm

Cortina update:
I took off the torque-limiter because it was causing trouble. I think I have figured out what's going on and may put it back on, but for Willow I don't see the need at all.

The Nexus 3 speed croaked. First gear is inoperable while I still have 2nd & 3rd. I am sure I have the shift adjustment correct - it's just not up to a 3220.

I have two options for replacing the 3 speed, both make it a single speed:
1.) I have ordered a track cog that will fit a Shimano spline that I can bolt my larger drive sprocket to and this, along with a broached ENO, should allow me to get running again.
2.) I will try a threaded adapter I made a while ago to screw on two freewheels. Not sure the adapter is up to it but will give it a try.

I got 2 more battery packs installed making it 48v - 15Ah.

My HC Cycle-Analyst came and will install it later today.

Question:
The 3220 is running at about 170f - is this normal?
Riding a few days ago the electrical system just stopped for no apparent reason. After turning it off and on a few times it started again. Maybe the controller overheated??? Will do a data dump this afternoon and see if there is a temp problem. Any ideas?

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by recumpence » Jun 07 2011 3:56pm

170f is normal for hard riding. Mine hits that occasionally.

If you hit the throttle from very low speed, Castle controllers can shut down and not restart until you power down for about 30 seconds and power back up. Mine does it occasionally (usually at the most inopportune times).

Matt
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 07 2011 6:44pm

Very helpful,
Thanks Matt

What's happening with Astro motors, and to the company? Are they eBike friendly these days or just too busy with G jobs to give our projects any interest?

Are you or Astro selling 3210's or 3215's?

What's happening to your large output motor project based on the Astro motor?

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by recumpence » Jun 07 2011 7:51pm

They are still going strong. Actually, they are busier than ever. They do still have a 8 to 10 week backlog, though. To try to counter that, I have been ordering groups of 8 to 16 motors per month so I always have some in the que to be made for me. That way many new orders from me do not have to wait. I currently have (IIRC) on order; four 3220s, six 3215s, and six or eight 3210s.

My big motor is kind of on the back-burner right now for various reasons.

Matt
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 08 2011 12:14am

Can I assume that you are selling 3215s, and 3210s?
If so - what are you selling 3215s and 3210s for?

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by recumpence » Jun 08 2011 7:16am

I sell them same as Astro does;

3210 $400
3215 $550
3220 $700

I spec my motors with longer shafts and sometimes other little bits. I do not charge extra for that, though.

I expect to have a few motors in stock in 2 weeks or so with another batch due a month later. I hope to have a batch of motors coming every month. That is a high risk for me, though, because if orders slow down, I could, potentially, be stuck paying an invoice for thousands of dollars worth of motors with no sales to back it up. My sales numbers seem OK for the volume I order, however. I cannot seem to keep them in stock. So, maybe I should increase my order volume each month..........

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 08 2011 11:39am

Thanks again Matt.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by SoSauty » Jun 08 2011 8:03pm

RWP,

I'm riding, looking for target data for my Astro 3210 8turn which I plan to run at Willow Springs 6/18. It likes to accelerate at burst amp rating, in my case 60amps. At extended 18 to 32mph romps the little Astro gets in the 140-150f range so think it'll enjoy 70amp. When I had it geared for 38mph, it wouldn't handle repeated 70amp bursts. Gearing for 31mph on a kart track definitely helped. The motor seems to perform well upto around 180f degrees. If I let it have 90amps it tends to overheat and doesn't have any real power until its had a 10min+ cooldown.

My full size OSD225 torque limiter worked well with moderate slippage but did soar to 200f if set too loose. Try a really hot 30-60 sec run in. Do you trust the precision level of machine prep for it? Presently, I'm using the 131D, which is much less beefier. I have to keep it pretty tight, it can slip some to protect jolting to the drive system, but not so much to prevent loading the Castle HV160. The lower gearing really helps my controller. (Really, I stressed an HV160 by gearing for 41mph early on and taking off up a gentle slope :( ). Willow Springs longest straight is 450' (allow some braking room) and the turns are a tad tighter than Tucson, possibly sub 20mph turns. Gear appropriately.

Try setting the your HV160 throttle response for '0' seems you need to type '0' for custom setting. You might want to go back to a '1' or higher setting later, yet that does smooth out the throttle for me. I've gone from 0 to 1 to 2, but that's with the 3210. My amp reading is still pretty fluid, sometimes it'd jump from 30s to 70amp, but I getting a handle on it. Also, to my reading and limited trials, set the timing in the HV160 for 'lo'. Voltage ripple is pretty low, also max 1.5V.

Just my 2 cents. We've lots to chat about at Willow Springs, yes, we need a inexpensive, generic e-racer, that's easy for noob builders to emulate. Beautiful, tidy build you've got here :wink:
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by recumpence » Jun 08 2011 8:51pm

As for the 160, I run mine up at 190 amps consistently on my 4 turn 3220. I pull 9,000 watts for a couple seconds, then it settles to 7,000 watts for a couple seconds, then it settles to 1,600 watts once at 40mph. I, too, set my response low (about 3 or 4), and my timing at low. My ripple never exceeds 1.25 volts. I have beat the ever living crap out of this poor 160 and it keeps on running. I have almost been trying to blow it, but it keeps on going. I am running the same OSD225 limiter. It does get hot. But, my big 80 tooth pulleys sink the heat away nicely. After some serious driving, my motor may be up at 150 to 160 degrees, the controller is at 140, and the clutch is at 130. Its all good.

Oh, I have a ton of black soot on my main pulley from the torque limiter (as I said, I torture this poor thing), yet I have not had to adjust the clutch at all. It just stays consistent.

Matt
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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 12 2011 11:41am

I figured out what is wrong with the torque limiter.

The friction disk behind the sprocket (the one that is hidden by the sprocket or pulley) moves off center. There is a needle bearing that the inner and outer friction disks and sprocket ride on. (This bearing allows the sprocket or pulley to rotate smoothly when there is an rpm difference between the pressure plates -and- the friction disks and sprocket or pulley. In other words when the torque limiter is limiting torque, ie, slipping.)

This needle bearing is too short and allows the inner friction disk to move off center. I don't think the #25 sprocket is too thick and taking up too much of the space as I machined off the hub. The web in the aluminum pulleys in Matt's torque limiter setups is wider than my #25 sprocket thus taking up more room. There has to be some lateral movement of the needle bearing to allow it to take up the slack as the friction disks wear, but apparently there is too much in the unit I have allowing the disk to drop behind and between the bearing and the rear pressure plate. I know that unless you have had one of these units in your hand the above might be hard to understand.

I know I can machine down the outer movable pressure plate to tighten the unit up a bit but first I will call Dalton on Monday to see what they say.

Anybody else had this issue with these torque limiters?

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by recumpence » Jun 12 2011 12:18pm

Yup, I had it happen on one. But, it never affected performance at all.

My new pulleys are a press-fit for that bearing. So, I set it at a depth that assures the discs stay centered and its all good. :)

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 12 2011 3:21pm

Thanks Matt - great idea to fix the sprocket/pulley to the needle bearing!

CYCLE ANALYST ROCKS - not sure how I got as far as I did without it. I was reticent to ride not knowing the condition of my batteries - now I know and ride with confidence!
I got the high current large screen unit and couldn't be happier.
Thank you Jason and Grin Tech for a great product at a fair price.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 15 2011 9:01pm

More issues:

My Astro 3220 has goo inside and was measured at 230 degrees Fahrenheit :shock: Anyone experience this kind of temperature with a 3220?
The HV 160 was measured at 205 degrees Fahrenheit :shock:

My temp measuring device is a cheap small hold in your hand type. But both the motor and controller are far too hot to touch.

Matt said: "when the laminations were epoxied in place, some epoxy chips remained at the bottom of the motor and eventually worked their way between the rotor and stator. Just clean (sand?) the epoxy off the stator and clean it out of the can and put it back together."

I took the 3220 apart once already and sanded as directed. Now it's happened again. The motor stator epoxied to the rotor. Anyone else have this problem and if so what did you do to fix it?

Is this a common issue with 3220's? Considering I am getting it ready for Willow Springs in a few days this is troubling for me.

I had some heat shrink that covered the connection shrunk to wire and loose at connector, kink of like a jacket that protected the joint that was loose and slipped over the joint. This heat shrink got so hot it closed over the joint so I have to cut it off.

Also my HV160 was measured at 205 degrees Fahrenheit and shuts down, at least I think when the HV160 gets too hot it automatically turns itself off - is this correct? What is the shut down temp for the HV160? Anything I should know about here? I was thinking of putting two 60mm 12v computer cooling fans blowin directly at the HV160 - do you think this will help?

I am wondering if the epoxy drag in the motor is causing the motor and thus the controller to run hot?

It's now geared to run at about 40 mph with a 24" rear wheel - so I don't think it's geared too high.
The system is 48v-15Ah Zippy LiPo 25c

Any suggestions or observations are greatly appreciated.
Attachments
3220_2011.06.15_825.jpg
Goo (epoxy?) on rotor.
3220_2011.06.15_825.jpg (83.76 KiB) Viewed 1612 times
3220_2011.06.15_827.jpg
Stuff (epoxy?) on inside of cover.
3220_2011.06.15_827.jpg (128.46 KiB) Viewed 1612 times
3220_2011.06.15_829.jpg
Stuff (epoxy?) on inside of stator and bottom of can.
3220_2011.06.15_829.jpg (110.92 KiB) Viewed 1612 times
3220_2011.06.15_831.jpg
Stuff (epoxy?) on inside of stator and bottom of can.
3220_2011.06.15_831.jpg (148.89 KiB) Viewed 1612 times

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 15 2011 9:19pm

The motor and controller heat issues continued here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 28&t=29120

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by RWP » Jun 19 2011 5:00pm

I was delighted to meet ES guys Bill, etard, evoforce, liveforphysics and SoSauty at the races 8) and big contrats to SoSauty for finishing.
Oh, for those that did not know - there was another of the rather informal motorized bicycle races - this time at the Willow Springs Raceway go kart track, here in SoCal.

Mechanically the eCortina performed great. The bike was smooth and is mechanically set up very well. I had been working on fixing mechanical issues for several weeks prior to the race and all that time and effort was well rewarded. For better braking I put an 8" disk on the front. First to fail was the Nexus 3 speed, which lost 1st gear. I had two 24" wheels all laced up with Nexus XT hubs and 2.4" CST (Maxxis) tires and this lowered the bike just a bit. Then there was a lot of fussing with the chain setup to keep both chains from jumping all over the place and staying on their sprockets. But in the end all that was resolved.

Tim, my friend and rider, pretty much controlled the track when he was on the course. Tim ran 600's at the big Willow track for years so he is a terrific & skilled rider. He's also a hell of a good musician and great woodworker. http://www.timwoodwork.com

I had very high hopes for the 3220 Astro because of all the cool Astro projects I have seen on ES. I have painfully learned that casual riding and a few seconds of grandstanding does not mean a motor is ultimately reliable or race worthy. I am really disappointed because I had such high hopes. I am not sure where to go from here.

Racing stresses stuff to the breaking point and I think this is critical for our electric bicycle projects. If our machines cannot stand up to a good deal of abuse...they are not ready for prime time.

I ran the eCortina because I thought it could win. Had the motor held up we would have been beaten by a 12hp close to 200cc 4 stroke and a 11hp Morini. BTW, if I am not mistaken, the max hp limit was 10hp.
Not bad for a home brew electric bicycle.

I really appreciate all the great people here at ES for pushing the envelope. I think the envelope is getting bigger.

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Re: Cortina Revisited

Post by recumpence » Jun 19 2011 5:56pm

What racing does is take the worse possible case for road riding and extend it about 5 times longer. For example, my yellow trike is 9kw peak (typically 8kw under acceleration). I beat the crap out of that thing! But, when I say that, what I mean is, I will burn the tire and drift out of a corner and wide open down the block, I brake hard for the next corner and repeat the process. However, that only continues for 6 or 7 corners at which point, I am worried about pissing off neighbors and a confrontation with a well dressed man in a white car. So, I slow down a bit. However, at that point, my 3220 is up at 150 to 160 degrees. As I tool around waiting for another empty neighborhood to come into view, the motor cools down to 100 degrees or so and I do it all over again. In racing, this process continues for a seemingly endless number of cycles and something has to give.

That being said, I tend to think there may be something else going on with your setup.

What were you geared for?

Matt
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