RC reduction Simplified

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 16 2012 9:10pm

Beta unit is boxed & in the mail.

here are a couple pics of the 1st try.
Image

all up weight with a 6374 motor mounted:
Image

in english:
Image
Image
its a little heaver than i planed on, but with the .625" shaft & large bearings its plenty beefy. & i can shave weight by releiving the sprocket & swiss cheeseing the casting where its un-stressed. but that does include a slipper clutch.

head on shot:
Image

I have a new casting pattern made to address all the little issues revealed while assembling this one. & its a little lighter also.
may give in & make the motor slide for chain tension adjustment...it will make the unit 100% more set up friendly
do you like the clear chain gaurd or do i get a sheet of black abs for it?

this is going into the beta stage now...we'll see what meets the testers expectations & where we can improve the packadge.
get some......

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by kevo » Apr 16 2012 10:21pm

Awesome job and great stuff Thud! Your offerings are coming together nicely and are very tempting :D
Thanks Justin of http://ebikes.ca for your amazing talents, dedication and contributions to ES!
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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Whiplash » Apr 17 2012 12:10am

That's awesome! What's the price?
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

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GITech   100 W

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by GITech » Apr 17 2012 12:14pm

That looks GREAT Thud!

I think you are hitting the nail right on the head!

The clear cover is perfect, cause you can paint it any color you like if you choose. Paint it from the inside just like painting an RC car/truck body and it will be very shiny and protected from scratching the paint.

I do agree you should go with slotted motor mounting holes and eliminate the slack roller. That would allow the cover to not have to be cut out for the roller, cut out the cost of the roller assy, and more importantly it would make it unidirectional without modification..for those who need it to drive right handed to the cranks, they could just flip it over and reverse the motor direction without having a slack roller to think about.

I will be interested in these, it's got me thinkin about doing a second ebike for the misses that is less complicated and costly than mine. Thanks for doing this work!

Later,
Jay
Ebike: Wallmart Genesis frame, unique Lovejoy 2-speed simplified/redundant drive mounted on custom aluminum swingarm conceptualized by me, machined by Thud. Brushless 80-100~100kv w/halls, 16s6p - 59.9v, 30Ah, 1.7+KWh, Fully Loaded Lyen 12 FET 3077 controller w/ Cycle-Analyst, full custom lighting.

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 17 2012 12:40pm

I hear you,
that slack roller is an afterthought to compensate for my lack of inventoried drive sprockets....i thought i had the correct ones in a box somewhere....It seemes I really don't :oops:
but after working through it last weekend.....slots will definatly make set up easier & maintance less of a chore.....

delivering trannys this week then re-building my cnc machine for the umteenth time....baby steps. :D


I have an idea for a quick-change tool holder...need to test that idea & see if it works.

Whip: still crunching #s......its less than i was thinking earlyer in the thread. just need to re-pour a few sets of castings & time the machinproccess with the freash jigs. Another 2 weeks & these will be in the sales section with options.
get some......

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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Kepler » Apr 17 2012 3:46pm

Great work Thud. Put me on the list for a unit when they become available. This is going to be perfect to use in conjunction with my push button RC throttle interface.
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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by E-racer » Apr 17 2012 3:52pm

From what I understand there are a lot of Chinese companies that will cast aluminum parts for very reasonable prices. You may want to consider looking into it if you want to do a production run.
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Burtie   10 kW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Burtie » Apr 17 2012 6:03pm

Hey Thud,
This is all looking like extremely good stuff, excellent work!
Will potentially simplify the construction of rc motored bikes a lot :)

Do you think that casting would benefit from a lug projecting beyond the motor, so you could attach a bracket/brace to the cross bar, preventing any tendancy for the clamp to rotate on the seat tube ( if any one should find it necessary ) ?
Seems like this might reduce the load requirements of the motor bracket seat post clamp significantly ?

EDit:
Looking closely at the photos, I think you probably have it already covered. Looks like there would be plenty of space to attach a bracket to the motor mountings if required, without fouling the chain.

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etard   1 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by etard » Apr 17 2012 7:09pm

Put me on the list Thud, It's cheap enough to not pass up, friction model please! What's the deal on these motors? Have you tried external hall sensors for using a 12 FET Infinion?

Kepler,
Is there a thread on this RC interface?
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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Kepler » Apr 17 2012 10:43pm

No dedicated thread on the interface, just bits and pieces in my last friction drive thread. I stopped posting stuff on the the friction drive as I think the whole concept had been pretty well covered. However, nothing has stopped in relation to development and the button interface has been a big part of the development.

The button throttle interface has become so refined now it really is a viable option for a direct drive setup as well as friction drives. This is why I am excited to see Thud's development.
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farmkid4   10 W

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by farmkid4 » Apr 18 2012 10:36am

Will you be selling them with a motor?

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 18 2012 11:07am

Which motor? :lol:

I haven't rulled the idea out....
get some......

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farmkid4   10 W

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by farmkid4 » Apr 19 2012 7:22am

Thud wrote:Which motor? :lol:

I haven't rulled the idea out....
:lol: I was thinking with a 63mm outrunner or similar.

Keep up the good work!

kevo   100 W

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by kevo » Apr 21 2012 10:07pm

Inexpensive ($35-40) motors useful for Thuds reduction unit are linked in adrian's thread over here :wink:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 6&start=30
Last edited by kevo on Apr 22 2012 8:57am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Justin of http://ebikes.ca for your amazing talents, dedication and contributions to ES!
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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by deVries » Apr 22 2012 2:40am

Thud wrote:I really think a re-wound & terminated 80/85 would make a awsome BB drive set up & I will test that on my old FS Marin some time this summer.
When you say "awesome BB-drive set-up", you mean a mid-drive unit? :shock: Now we're talking about something I want to buy! :twisted:

Elaborate more on your mid-drive offering please! :mrgreen:

Look'n good... keep on, keep'n on... Thudster... :twisted:

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 22 2012 4:11am

You need to be very pro active when shopping motors at leaders. They have (what apear to be) some awsome sales form time to time....but they are not allways on top of inventory. I bought prolly the last 80-100's they had. but I had no problem getting re-funded for the back-order. The motor linked in adrian's thread is now back to $90.00

Hello deVries,
Just to be clear, "mid drive" typicly describe a hub motor not mounted in the hub....it can either drive the wheel directly or run through the bicycles main gearing. (what I refer to as the BB drive systems).

I have posted a couple pictures of a little reducion unit that powers my buddys kid hauler bicycle around with a 6374 turnigy & CCice100 controller. bike is starting is 3rd year of service & he still loves it,(kid is getting heavyer & it still pulls hime & her all over town) & from my experiance, this is my favorite "assist" to ride as a bicycle. It make you feel like superman. properly geared for the bike (road or mountain) it is pure enjoyment.

Most of the high power stuff I tend to gravitate too is really moped class stuff...& frankly the pedals are usualy in the way of progress.
thanks for the props, I am getting my old F.S. Marin out of mothballs to make a BBdrive set up with this soon. We'll see what motor confiuration works best for it.
get some......

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adrian_sm   10 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by adrian_sm » Apr 22 2012 4:30am

Thud wrote:The motor linked in adrian's thread is now back to $90.00
Unfortunately the 6374-200kv never went on sale, but the 6364-230kv motors I linked too are still cheap, US$33 + shipping.

Here is the direct link: http://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001224158
Thud wrote: I have posted a couple pictures of a little reducion unit that powers my buddys kid hauler bicycle around with a 6374 turnigy & CCice100 controller. bike is starting is 3rd year of service & he still loves it,(kid is getting heavyer & it still pulls hime & her all over town) & from my experiance, this is my favorite "assist" to ride as a bicycle. It make you feel like superman. properly geared for the bike (road or mountain) it is pure enjoyment.
Have you got a link? Would love to see it.

Oh and I love this reduction unit. Well done. :D
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by deVries » Apr 22 2012 4:47am

Thud wrote:I have posted a couple pictures of a little reducion unit that powers my buddys kid hauler bicycle around with a 6374 turnigy & CCice100 controller.
This new drive system you have in this thread would also work well with the 6364 too, right? KV is 230.

Does the motor "ideally" have to have the two support bearings for the shaft or will just one side work fine with this drive? :idea: I think it's called the skirt bearing? :?: Does your setup here really need the skirt bearing support too? :?:

Also, is this the same drive here that is going to be used also for the Marin mid-drive through the BB crank gearing? :?: Or, is that another design yet to come? :?:

Thanks! :D

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 22 2012 6:45am

I stand corrected & thank you for the support.
Here is the bottom bracket drive mounted on a very lightweight Giant frame. it looks large in this photo, but thats a 6374 in there. Its running on 8cells.
Image
the batteries & ellectronics are now mounted inside the frame also , this photo was the "Hurry up & lets try it out" configuration.
batteries & controller are too far apart. The finalize the design was tweeked to house all the reduction internaly except the chain to the crank of course, but have never revisited it. something allways comes up.

As far as a skirt bearing required....definatly not. they are needed for a friction drive to stablize the can & on a larger motor that is going to subject to jumping or substantial impact force. the skirt bearing came form the 3D aero guys. the gyroscopic force of a propeller & the airframe stressing it from all angles would let the can flex enough to have magnet strikes.....especialy on the long can style motors.

& yes this same unit as a BB drive. I am thinking a lower kv wind & a bit lower voltage & you have a resaonable assist to the human side of the bicycle. It won't be a braggerts 10kw set up....but thrugh the gears, it will do everything you want a bicycle to do. & the biggest plus is the ease of maintaining a 6cell set up over chaining a pack in series...then parallelling them up for capacity.
get some......

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adrian_sm   10 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by adrian_sm » Apr 22 2012 7:07am

Thud wrote:& the biggest plus is the ease of maintaining a 6cell set up over chaining a pack in series...then parallelling them up for capacity.
+1. It does make life easy doesn't it.
- Easy to scale the battery. Run a single pack, or parallel as many as you like.
- easy to charge
- easy to balance using charger, and a one of these
- ESC can do LVC & charger can do HVC, so no BMS required if you don't want.

Now you have me thinking about a BB drive through the gears on my FS bike with this reduction unit. Damn you.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 22 2012 7:38am

:mrgreen:
get some......

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by adrian_sm » Apr 22 2012 7:46am

:evil: :lol:

So freewheeling cranks. Where? How much?
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by farmkid4 » Apr 22 2012 7:48am

adrian_sm wrote::evil: :lol:

So freewheeling cranks. Where? How much?
+1

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Thud » Apr 22 2012 8:37am

I buy all my wide bottom brackets from these guy's. Its a tiny garage internet side buisness but I have talked to the owner & he is a complete motored bike enthusiest & looking at the ellectric side more every day. They will ship international.
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/pr ... qfgl3vlf24
& all the chainrings & goodies to bolt to the freewheel:
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/in ... qfgl3vlf24
same cranks as you get with a cyclone kit AFAIK.

After my experaince with these cranks, I will now recomend not using the White freewheel.(or the chepo dicta) Instead use a ACS cossfire & make the adjustments to the sprocket teeth (to fit the chainring bolt pattern) with a dremel tool.

why? the Dicta has a pr of weak pawles but with dual angular contact bearings it remains a fairly true set up...(till the pawles fail & you smash your nads on the top bar!)
The white industries unit is great under pedal power & with 3 pawles it is rock solid....the fault there is the single bearing suport when it is freewheeling.(under motor power & not pedaling) it gets very flopy very fast. does not insire confidence.

the Crossfire is a huge step up from the Dicta & still keeps the sprocket running true, has 3 pawles for secure pedaling & are reasonably priced. I haven't actually used the crossfire in this application yet....but I have nothing but confidence it is the solution.
Unless recumpence shows his full bearing supported freewheeling crank design....That would be the ultimate fix. :wink:
Last edited by Thud on Apr 22 2012 8:59am, edited 1 time in total.
get some......

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Re: RC reduction Simplified

Post by Miles » Apr 22 2012 8:49am

Thud wrote:why? the Dicta has a pr of weak pawles but with dual angular contact bearings it remains a fairly true set up...(till the pawles fail & you smash your nads on the top bar!)
The white industries unit is great under pedal power & with 3 pawles it is rock solid....the fault there is the single bearing suport when it is freewheeling.(under motor power & not pedaling) it gets very flopy very fast. does not insire confidence.

the Crossfire is a huge step up from the Dicta & still keeps the sprocket running true, has 3 pawles for secure pedaling & are reasonably priced. I haven't actually used the crossfire in this application yet....but I have nothing but confidence it is the solution.
Unless recumpence shows his full bearing supported freewheeling crank design....That would be the ultimate fix. :wink:
See also: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 28&t=25153

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