El Supreme GNG

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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TorEddy   100 W

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El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Apr 14 2013 1:18pm

After years of reading this forum, i finally put together the `El Supreme`.

- A Commencal Supreme Race 2010 mod, 160mm All-mountain bike.
- GNG Brushless Middrive 1000->?W
- LightningRods Adjustable sheets (powdercoated)
- 4 x Turnigy lipo 22.2v, 5Ah ~> 48V, 10Ah
- Cycle Analyst w/external shunt
- Turnigy MEGA 400W X2 charger with a Turnigy 540W powersupply
- Weight: 18 kg bike + 4 kg motor + 3.2 kg battery = 25.2 kg total.

And yesterday i had my first ride:-)
This is fun... I immediately started riding it like a motorcycle, and felt the lack of power.
After readjusting my expectations, and using the gears better, this is actually a really fast bike.
With standard controller i got approx 20A at 46V = 920 watts, which gave me a top speed of 40 km/h on the flats.
I'm going to modify the bike/motor/controller to give me more power in the future.
This is not a bike i need for commuting, only for fun:-)

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I used a Dremel to soften the edges of the motor pulley and am hoping this will extend the lifetime of the belt.
I'm going to mod the shunt to give me 30A and hope the primary belt will hold without slipping..
With 1500w this is gonna be i nice ride, but I'm sure I'll be wanting more.
Guessing the next step would be running a new controller at 66 volts, and a slip-on motor pulley with a eno in a 120t freewheel.

The controller and CA is attached using Sugru, a silicone plastelina goo, that hardens to a rubber like glue. Perfect for diy applicatins like this:-)
I see a battery tray fastened to the tubing with Sugru and hoseclamps in the future...
I'm going to tidy the power cables, and apply a switch and maybe a fuse. Do i need a fuse? and if so, what type?

So far I'm really happy with this bike. No troubles while building or riding puts a grin on my face..
I'll post an update after the shunt mod....

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by bzhwindtalker » Apr 15 2013 1:55am

Nice bike, good for freeride :) You will love the power at 1500w, no need for more with gears!

Tinto   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by Tinto » Apr 15 2013 4:47am

Looks great - that is a nice compact suspension design.
A battery tray would be a wise evolution I think.

Is your crankset slipping yet?
Mine let go after about 45km, but was slipping slightly the whole time.

I know what you mean about getting used to using the gears properly.
Even at 48v there's plenty of grunt for it to keep pulling faster as you thumb-click next, next, next!
.: Giant AC-E GNG :: 48V :.

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christerljung   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by christerljung » Apr 15 2013 5:03am

Very nice build! Looks good with the chainguides, are they original commencal on this frame?

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Apr 15 2013 3:48pm

Thanx for the kind words. Everybody who sees it thinks it looks like a bomb :shock:

If my crankset is slipping? Are you thinking of the crank freewheel? If so, no.
But the crank is to cheap and it's uncomfortable close to the bolts on the adjustable sheets... I had to file down the head on some of the umbraco heads.
I would like to get a new better one with isis and increase the clearing.
Image

The chainguides are original Commencal, but i'we seen similar but other brand for sale.
It had to be modified though..
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Last edited by TorEddy on Apr 16 2013 3:13pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ypedal   100 GW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by Ypedal » Apr 15 2013 4:02pm

nice bike !

those lipo's need to be protected better, the straps will dig into the cells over time and cause deformities, you need to add hard plastic/etc to all sides, then secure that to the frame imo...

8)
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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Apr 16 2013 2:40pm

I agree.
I was thinking of maby a 50x50 mm aluminum u profile to hold the batteries would work.
Or maybe a 50mm deep box inside the frame, and a 50 mm wide plate under the downtube.
All held in place with http://sugru.com/ and velcro band, or hose clamps.

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snellemin   10 kW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by snellemin » Apr 16 2013 3:36pm

TorEddy wrote: But the crank is to cheap and it's uncomfortable close to the bolts on the adjustable sheets... I had to file down the head on some of the umbraco heads.
I would like to get a new better one with isis and increase the clearing.
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I got more clearance with the Bikemotive chain ring adapters. I'm still using the stock GNG crank arms.
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Silent speed Racer

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Apr 17 2013 11:14am

Nice.. and I can see you are using a chain tensioner even though u have the adjustable sheets..
I haven't put more than 15 ah trough this bike, and the bb axle is already slightly bent.
Any recommendations on a new isis bottom bracket, crank arms and freewheel?

The secondary reduction chain has stretched. Should i adjust the sheets or go with a chain tensioner? Will the chain continue to stretch?

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snellemin   10 kW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by snellemin » Apr 17 2013 4:13pm

I just like to have more teeth engaged, hence the tensioner. My new KMC Z410 Bicycle chain 112L should be delivered today, which will replace my stretch secondary chain. The stretched chain got really sloppy.
A longer 500 5m 15 Goodyear belt should arrive tomorrow. It's cheaper than the 475 5m 5 size belt.

I don't have any recommendations for the isis stuff.
Silent speed Racer

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Apr 17 2013 4:28pm

Adjusted LightningRods sheets for chain stretch, and added a chain tensioner to compensate for bent bb.

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Preparing for 1500w and added a belt tensioner on primary drive.
All i had to do, was to drill a hole in the ball-bearing holder and use the spacers from the original tensioner.
The extra hole in the motor aligned perfectly for bolting on the tensioner

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Last edited by TorEddy on Apr 22 2013 5:34am, edited 1 time in total.

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flyinmonkie   10 kW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by flyinmonkie » Apr 17 2013 5:34pm

Some people have had luck with the isis set up from cyclone. You can order just the bb or the whole crank set. You loose the support bearing that the GNG has though.

Clay

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 17 2013 9:16pm

My favorites, square-section PVC post covers:

"Show us your DIY battery housing"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums//viewt ... =3&t=12847

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Whiplash   100 MW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by Whiplash » Apr 17 2013 10:52pm

That first one is going to do an unwanted stoppie if it hits any bumps going down hill!!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by LightningRods » Apr 20 2013 10:32am

Really nice looking bike! Once the battery boxes are sorted it will be a beauty.

There seems to be a lot of variation in the dimensions of the square taper in the GNG crankset. On my own crank, the one I used to design the bottom sheets, there is about 5mm of clearance with everything bolted down tight. I've had two customers with zero clearance. Their chainwheel and crank arm was sitting about 6mm closer. The proper fix, rather than grinding bolt heads off, is to shim the BB spindle with thin sheet metal. An aluminum beverage can works perfect. Hold the shim in place with some thick grease until it's assembled.

I am getting very close to having my GT2 drive ready for the GNG. I'm going to go with an 18T driver pulley and a 95T driven. I'm still debating between 25mm wide and 20mm. The only real downside to 25mm is clearing the crank arms. People are putting so many kinds of BBs on this kit in search of something reliable that I'm not sure how much room is available.

I'm hoping to make idlers or tensioners completely unnecessary, just for the sake of efficiency. No matter what we do the pulleys on this type of setup are close together and we're pushing the reduction to the limit. The bigger the driven pulley, the more the belt angle opens up and disengages teeth on the driver. That's why I'm going with a 95T instead of a 120. 18/95 is 5.27:1. A bit higher than stock but a good trade off for tooth engagement.
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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Mar 21 2014 10:20am

Just pulled the bike out after ordering a hole lot from Mike.
The bike is still good fun when pulling 40 amps from stock controller at 48v.
But the BB bent again.. it's just stupid soft. Cant't wait for the Cyclone 148mm ISIS BB to arrive.
Battery boxes are in the making and when the LR kit arrives, i'm almost ready to roll.
except..

I would like to make charging the bike easier with my two channel charger (Turnigy MEGA 400W X2).
If i could clean up the electronics, make it easy to charge and be ready for 72v, that would be great.
I'm using xt60 connectors, and would like to place 6 x xt60 connectors in a row, to be able to connect 6 x 6s 5ah lipos for 72v or only use 4 of them for 48v.
A charging port and a balancing port would also be needed.
Already bought a heavy duty power switch, the plastic one with a red plastic key.. Do i need a fuse in here as well?
Any help with schematics or whatever, would be greatly appreciated.

Tord

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by crossbreak » Mar 24 2014 3:24pm

spinningmagnets wrote: "Show us your DIY battery housing"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums//viewt ... =3&t=12847
yeah, i can also recommend. Use that for some time, good for people who wanna enclose lipo. For 18650 i built a case from GRP Polyester Resin which can be formed more individually. I think it is even more robus and lightweight and can be easily colored by mixing pigments with the resin.

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christerljung   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by christerljung » Mar 25 2014 4:16pm

For a more simple way of charging i can recommend a permanent installed lipo-bms. Bzhwindtalker run these with success and i am building my pack with similar ones now.
http://www.bestechpower.com/balanceboard/HCX-D103C.html

Then you dont need to disconnect for parallellcharging. Just make sure your serial cherger Cuts off at the right voltage.

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by bzhwindtalker » Mar 26 2014 3:39am

Just to clarify : those board only do high level balancing, and they can be left connected on the cells all the times because they draw very little current. Once a cell reach 4.22v, a transistor switches on a resistor, and relases it when the cell hits 4.2v They are really cheap and lighweigth!

Those are the exact ones I use : http://www.bestechpower.com/balanceboard/HCX-D136.html (for 4s packs)

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kris   1 mW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by kris » Apr 12 2014 8:03pm

Hi finally I found a thread with exactly the info i need I just brought a 60v 650w controller what battery's do you recommend I think I will buy from hobby king ?

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Apr 13 2014 12:24pm

I went with the turnigy 6s 5ah 25c packs. They work great for me, but Im thinking of buing two more for 72v. You also have the 8ah packs depending on what suits your frame best.

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underdog   10 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by underdog » Jul 30 2014 11:23am

Nice bike. Qudos! We shold da a e-meet here in Oslo some time 8)
Norway`s leading custom shop for Ebike enthusiasts: www.underdogbikes.no

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Jun 24 2015 2:57am

Thanx..

I didn't see this post until now, but i agree, it would be fun to meet here in Oslo.
I just discovered Ratkings thread, and realized he's also from Norway.
That bike would be fun to see in action.

Anyways, if your still up for a meeting, drop me a PM.

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by TorEddy » Jun 24 2015 5:34am

I'we been out of the e-bike business for a while now, due to this little "helper"
Lykke.jpg
After buying a LightningRods upgrade kit last year, I was finally able to put it together this year.
Kit included these items:
Upper sheets with tensioner- $42.
25mm wide GT pulley set, 18T and 90T- $60
25mm wide GT drive belt- $40
Heavy duty ACS freewheel- $25
12mm bore hub adapter for freewheel- $25
Steel tube jackshaft housing with bearings and lockrings- $65
Steel jackshaft axle-$35
12 tooth #219 driver with 11mm bore adapter- $25
#219 DID HTZ SDH Hard Pin Chain- $35 + $5 shipping from vendor
64-93 tooth #219 BB sprocket- $20 + $5 shipping from vendor
L-R #219 to BB freewheel adapter plate- $20
Cyclone 148mm ISIS BB- $175 (normally $254 from Cyclone with S&H)
CKS #219 Chain Tool- $25 (219 chain has no master link)

The first ting i had to do after receiving the parts, was to glue and hammer on the pressfit motorpulley, using jbweld-ish glue.
slip on pulley.jpg
Welding some nuts on the lower adjustable sheets
sveiset mutter.jpg
Wanting the motor as close to the frame as possible, the frame bracket needed some modding
tettest mulig til rammen.jpg
Using Sugru, silicone rubber, as a bracket-to-downtube adapter
sugru mount.jpg
Drivetrain mounted
uten batteriboks.jpg
Had a batterybox made
batterybox cutout.jpg
batterybox cutout.jpg (54.66 KiB) Viewed 2156 times
batteriboks.jpg
Pimped it
pimped batteriboks.jpg
Schematics. Ended up with the one to the right
koblingsskjema.jpg
Cables in place. Tight ass He...
Åpen batteriboks.jpg
Åpen batteriboks 2.jpg
Finished
Ferdig fra siden.jpg
Ferdig fra topp.jpg
Ferdig fra brytersiden.jpg
ferdig med skjermer.jpg

After a testride, the secondary reduction chain turned slack.
I made a torque brace to fix the problem
torque brace.jpg
But its not good enough. It needs to be adjustable.
The forces from the small secondary pulley is twisting the motor and uppersheets towards the crank chainring, making the 219 chain slack.
This is probably due to powdercoating the lower sheets, reducing the friction between the two adjustable parts.

Whats left:

I need to work out an adjustable torque brace.
Shorten and tidy the battery cables.
Charging is a pita, so finding a solution for that would be great. Maybe a onboard BMS, but my charger is 6s max, and my batterypack is 12s.
Splashguard for the motor and reduction. (already have the transparent acrylic plastic and plastidip to paint it with)
Fix the battery lid magnets. I use neodyne magnets to hold the lid in place. I need to mount bigger magnets.
Change the small 12t 219 pulley with a 13tooth one for higher top speed.
Current throttle.. I really want a torque based throttle to give me better control.

I have the original controller modified to 40A max, which gives me around 1500-1800 watts of power.
I have the CA v2 and see that the v3 comes with current throttle. My v2 is hardly used, so it hurts me to buy a v3.
Any suggestions on how to make a current throttle with my setup?

My top speed with 80t 219 secondary chainring was dissapointing 38km/h.
Changed it to 70t and upped the max speed to 42km/h, still only using the lowest 4 gears. The frame does not allow to fit a larger crank chainring for the bike chain.
I'm talking to LR Mike regarding getting a 13 tooth 219 pulley instead of the 12 tooth, and hope that it would put me over the target speed of 50km/h.

Oh.. and I highly recommend my new tires, Maxxis Holy Roller.
It seems like the perfect all-around tire with low rolling resistance and good grip.
Attachments
batterybox cutout.jpg
batterybox cutout.jpg (54.66 KiB) Viewed 2156 times

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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: El Supreme GNG

Post by Wheazel » Oct 07 2015 3:27am

Did read in your other thread that this one got stolen. How did it happen?
Regardless it sucks :/

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