New Bafang Crank-Drives

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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jateureka   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by jateureka » Jul 08 2013 4:24pm

greenspark wrote:
jateureka wrote:Is the bottom bracket able to be serviced / replaced with standard off-the-shelf bicycle parts or is it a special item only available from Bafang?
Don't understand the question. The motor includes the bottom bracket. It is a single unit. The cranks are off the shelf parts however. They supply cranks, but it looks like they are standard.
OK, bottom brackets wear out. On most of my bicycles & e-bikes I replace the cartridge BB every 2nd year or so as the bearings wear and get notchy/play.
Are you saying you can't do this on the Bafang BB drive unit? So what happens when you wear out the BB bearings, it is not serviceable???
E-bikes: Bafang 8FUN; Mac; Ezee; FreeGo; Aprilia 7s LiPo; eLation V2; TerraTrike recumbent
E-motorbikes: ZEV 7100 LR scooter, 84V 60Ah LiFePO4.
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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by Tiverion » Jul 08 2013 8:14pm

jateureka wrote:
greenspark wrote:
jateureka wrote:Is the bottom bracket able to be serviced / replaced with standard off-the-shelf bicycle parts or is it a special item only available from Bafang?
Don't understand the question. The motor includes the bottom bracket. It is a single unit. The cranks are off the shelf parts however. They supply cranks, but it looks like they are standard.
OK, bottom brackets wear out. On most of my bicycles & e-bikes I replace the cartridge BB every 2nd year or so as the bearings wear and get notchy/play.
Are you saying you can't do this on the Bafang BB drive unit? So what happens when you wear out the BB bearings, it is not serviceable???
No way known! If you can break cartridge BBs then whatever you're doing should not be done with a push bike. These crank drive systems are not for you; best get a Harley.

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jateureka   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by jateureka » Jul 09 2013 12:20am

What are you talking about Tiverion?? I don't need a motorcycle and I don't do anything abnormal with my e-bikes.

The BB in most bicycles is designed to be serviced because bearings wear. :roll: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-hel ... ervice-bbt
E-bikes: Bafang 8FUN; Mac; Ezee; FreeGo; Aprilia 7s LiPo; eLation V2; TerraTrike recumbent
E-motorbikes: ZEV 7100 LR scooter, 84V 60Ah LiFePO4.
ZERO 2011 S motorcycle, 51.8V 70Ah LiMno2, 2012 headlight, Kilovac EV-200 contactor
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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by Tiverion » Jul 09 2013 3:06am

jateureka wrote:What are you talking about Tiverion?? I don't need a motorcycle and I don't do anything abnormal with my e-bikes.

The BB in most bicycles is designed to be serviced because bearings wear. :roll: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-hel ... ervice-bbt
Makes no sense. Assuming the units you are using are as good as the $25 cheapy I just installed in my bike then the only way to break them is by bending the shaft which means serious and repeated jumps; not normal use. A good cup and cone BB, properly greased and adjusted, would only need servicing every at 2 year intervals or longer.

I think you should forget about bottom bracket drives until you find out why you are breaking cartridges.

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jateureka   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by jateureka » Jul 09 2013 4:31am

I never said I was "breaking cartridges".
I smell a TROLL...
E-bikes: Bafang 8FUN; Mac; Ezee; FreeGo; Aprilia 7s LiPo; eLation V2; TerraTrike recumbent
E-motorbikes: ZEV 7100 LR scooter, 84V 60Ah LiFePO4.
ZERO 2011 S motorcycle, 51.8V 70Ah LiMno2, 2012 headlight, Kilovac EV-200 contactor
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greenspark   100 W

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by greenspark » Jul 09 2013 5:35am

jateureka wrote:
greenspark wrote:
jateureka wrote:Is the bottom bracket able to be serviced / replaced with standard off-the-shelf bicycle parts or is it a special item only available from Bafang?
Don't understand the question. The motor includes the bottom bracket. It is a single unit. The cranks are off the shelf parts however. They supply cranks, but it looks like they are standard.
OK, bottom brackets wear out. On most of my bicycles & e-bikes I replace the cartridge BB every 2nd year or so as the bearings wear and get notchy/play.
Are you saying you can't do this on the Bafang BB drive unit? So what happens when you wear out the BB bearings, it is not serviceable???
Thanks, now I understand the question. I have not taken the unit apart, so I do not know if it is repairable or not. However, I would presume that parts would be supplied by Bafang to dealers, just as they supply parts for the hub motors. Anything that wore out (like the nylon gears referenced in this blog see http://bruceteakle.blogspot.co.nz/p/electric.html) would probably have replacement parts available.

To answer your question, someone would need to take apart the motor and determine what the bearings are. I know the motor is designed to be taken apart, and it is probable that the Chinese would have purchased standard bearings rather than have a special set made for their motors, but this is conjecture.

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Ch00paKabrA   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by Ch00paKabrA » Jul 12 2013 9:00pm

shanman3us wrote:@T3sla:

So, if the 350w units are available, where can a person buy a kit from right now? I looked at the link to the AliExpress site but it looks like the lower end (original) one. The LCD display also looks very different compared to the video that you posted on May 26.

Thanks in advance...

Shanman3us
i had this page bookmarked last week so that I could buy one next week. I am closing on a house a week from today so I really cant use the credit cards right now.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/8fun-mid ... 97760.html

Unfortunately, last week, the minimum order was 1 unit but now it is 4 so that is $1500 for the lot - Yikes! I am not happy with the change.

I did a google search and found them for sale here as well for a single unit:

http://www.fystore.com/p409311/8fun-BBS ... r-kit.html

these are the only places I can find unless someone here is selling them. They are about $450 each on these sites.

As soon as I close on the house, I intend to buy one even though I really don't have a bike to put it on yet. I intend to put it on a bike that I will keep at my place in Florida.


Edit: After writing this, I noticed that the OP was selling them. Sorry. In any case, he is out of 36v so I had to purchase one from the folks on Aliexpress. There are currently 2 vendors selling them. I had recently bought a hub motor from one of them but they are the vendor that requires you to buy 4. the other vendor is around 46 shipped.

I contacted the other vendor and after pointing out that I can buy just one from the other vendor, they agreed to sell just one and it was $340 for the kit with $98 shipping. Not bad and it was a little over $20 less than the other vendor. So, it looks like these are getting more popular as vendors are popping up around the web.
Last edited by Ch00paKabrA on Aug 09 2013 8:33am, edited 1 time in total.

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t3sla   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by t3sla » Jul 13 2013 1:33am

greenspark wrote: A Shimano Nexus 3 speed is designed to be shifted when not pedalling. Going up a hill if you find you want to be in a lower gear, without a motor you stop pedalling for a split second, shift and then continue
Wasn't aware of that, the 8 Speed isn't and exhibited that nasty clunk during gear transitions.

As for the BB I'm not sure, but the Axle itself might need to be.
The existing model PAS is speed only, but the future model will have torque sensing.
Some of the torque sensors I've worked with use the magnetic field (T) in the axle to read gauge toque, so you really need to use what ever they have as it's calibrated with that in mind and they are usually sealed units that aren't serviceable (so no bearing change)

I actually think the 750W version will be very popular in the US market, especially considering everyone state side is cool with derailleurs and loves throttles
Europe market would want the toruqe sensing (next revision) ability and will unfortunately hold it to the standard of a BOSCH unit instead of comparing to units of similar price.
Europebike and Interbike will show how he OEMS have treated it.

It's an excellent start and once they are well into mass production that can expand and improve further
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greenspark   100 W

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by greenspark » Jul 13 2013 6:18am

t3sla wrote:
I actually think the 750W version will be very popular in the US market, especially considering everyone state side is cool with derailleurs and loves throttles
Europe market would want the toruqe sensing (next revision) ability and will unfortunately hold it to the standard of a BOSCH unit instead of comparing to units of similar price.
Europebike and Interbike will show how he OEMS have treated it.
Bosch v Bafang is apples to oranges. Regarding Bosch setting the standard, the price difference, and the fact that the Bafang BBS-01 is an after-market bolt-on puts the BBS-01 in a market of its own.

BBS-01 enables bike owners to convert without re-lacing a wheel or run mismatched rims. Shipping is cheaper because no rim involved. If the BB has a straight-through (no obstructions), installation is virtually the same as changing a bottom bracket (note that there is a big "if" here, because tubes tend to extend into the BB shaft opening, and must be ground down for the unit to fit), it slips in in seconds. Remove the old BB, slip in the new BBS-01, fit the mounting nuts (2) and fixing plate (2 bolts), hook up controls and battery, attach crank, pedals & chain and your bike is now an e-bike. That is not the Bosch market.

There are millions of existing bicycles in the USA and EU that can take the BBS-01 unit. That's the big market if it is properly exploited.

We have both the 300W (detuned 350W to meet legal standard) and the 250W and we believe that - if properly marketed - there will be a large US market. Most members of this forum seem to be enthusiasts who want to go to max power. But this audience is not necessarily the only market in the USA. We call it the slow-cycle market. Slow down, smell the flowers, enjoy upright riding and let the motor take the strain out of hill-climbing... but keep pedaling up the hill. We tend to think that the 750W motor will be too powerful for the purpose.

When we began our research, our early units included a 500W/52V absurdly fast MAC that transformed a Gary Fisher hardtail into a 52kph motorbike. It was too powerful for someone who actually wants to ride a bicycle, get good exercise yet not have ones legs screaming with too much lactic acid from pumping up the hill. Pedaling on the GF was primarily to fool people into thinking this was one really strong rider. Up steep hills, pedaling was not necessary and we reckoned it would only be a matter of time before someone got hurt or killed on it. We kept testing various motors... Cute-100/36v: not enough power. MXUS/39V: too much. Bafang CST/36V: getting closer, but still a bit more than wanted. Bafang SWXK5/39V: not enough power. MAC 500/36v: still too powerful but not as over-the-top as the MAC500/52v. Sure, we could tune the controller to get the right power, but we were looking for the right amount of engineering rather than relying on de-tuning.

The BBS-01 hit the sweet spot and we tend to think even if in the USA 750W is allowed, there will be a strong market - more the tweed run cyclists than the radio-shack enthusiasts. I would say that shops in the US major cities who want to get into the bike-to-ebike conversion business and have a small budget for advertising to spread the word could do well. The one unusual investment we would suggest is a boring jig that a bike frame can be set into to bore out the BB middle part to 33.5mm. We would also recommend selling two 6/Ah 36v batteries rather than one 12/Ah... yes it does involve an extra BMS, but it means that on short runs, less bulk and weight, and we found that done in a cube, it fits nicely in the Brooks Millbrook saddle bag. For longer trips, take both batteries, and turn around when the first one quits... hopefully, the second one will then get you back home.

If anyone wants to get into the business, send me a private message as we have been working with the factory, and can assist in direct wholesale procurement. Or if about 50-100 of you can put together a buying group we may be able to arrange a drop-ship order. We met with a guy in China who would be perfect for this, but it will need to convince him that the market is there. Again, send PM if this is something of interest.

Regarding the Bafang BBS PAS, we find actually works quite nicely - seems to be faster on the start/stop than the external PAS. We also find riders tend to use the control panel to vary power including power-off when on level or going down hill. We look forward to the torque sensor model, but have to say that the PAS version is quite nice.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 13 2013 7:33am

"...We call it the slow-cycle market. Slow down, smell the flowers, enjoy upright riding and let the motor take the strain out of hill-climbing... but keep pedaling up the hill. We tend to think that the 750W motor will be too powerful for the purpose..."
"...But we were looking for the right amount of engineering rather than relying on de-tuning..."
When it comes to power, I must disagree. The casual E-bike rider puts a lot of stock in the opinions of the hard-core green enthusiast. When a green-minded rider adds a child and two bags of groceries (admittedly a small market) tackling hills is exactly what the motor is made for and a heavy load will produce more heat than a light load on the same hill. Buyers want to be reassured that their admittedly mild user profile will never come close to overloading the product. Overbuilt and de-tuned is exactly what I would produce to sell to the masses.
"There are millions of existing bicycles in the USA and EU that can take the BBS-01 unit. That's the big market if it is properly exploited...
...The BBS-01 hit the sweet spot and we tend to think even if in the USA 750W is allowed, there will be a strong market...I would say that shops in the US major cities who want to get into the bike-to-ebike conversion business and have a small budget for advertising to spread the word could do well..."
I agree, and yet...customers are a fickle bunch, and notoriously price-sensitive. I would very much like to see a true 750W version of this kit available, but sales projections must take into consideration existing competition. I am a fan of the 9C and the MAC geared hub, but...for the non-technical rider who wants to add an E-bike to their garage (older retirees, among others), when they see a 1,000W Bafang-BPM rear geared hub on a new bike at the LBS, and next to it is the same model of bike with a 750W Bafang BB-drive...price will play a big part of their decision between the two.

I could advise them that the 750W BB-drive is clearly more efficient, but...if their local hills are mild enough that the rear hub-motor is adequate? it's impossible to predict the USA customers response. Personally, I would not even consider stocking a 350W unit. The road to bankruptcy is paved with a thousand great products that the public "almost" bought.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Does anyone know of any published pics of the internals? I am most curious as to whether it's an inrunner or an outrunner, and if the reduction gears are verified to be helical?

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by Warren » Jul 13 2013 10:06am

As someone who is an older, lifelong cyclist, and has put over 10K miles on a 350 watt mid-drive, I see two markets, in the US, both with problems.

One market is the non-cyclist. The problem with a motor running through the gears, for them, is that they won't be in the right gear. They will try climbing hills in high gear, pedaling at 20 rpm, and it will be worse than a geared hubmotor in the wheel.

The other market is "sport" cyclists. But limiting assist to 20 mph max loses that segment. I understand the need to limit speed for non-cyclists. They will get into trouble pretty quickly, and sue you when they crash. But "sport" cyclists will be bored with the 20 mph assist limit, and decide it is not worth the extra weight, and hassle.

The market in Europe, and a very few cities in the US would be different. There, cyclists who use bikes as transportation would welcome a BB add-on for their bikes.

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t3sla   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by t3sla » Jul 13 2013 10:27am

I'd have to agree with magnets on this one.
The rational explains why MTB sales are so big...
American consumers prefer* a larger numbers and place more weight^ on over-specification (usually to buy into a lifestyle, ex SUV)
Overbuilt and de-tuned
law says I can have X amount of power, must be able to have X amount of power.
Or 'justify it to the wife syndrome' yeaaah but it can do this function/feature (only uses said feature once a year)...we're all guilty of that one :lol:
Sure, we could tune the controller to get the right power, but we were looking for the right amount of engineering rather than relying on de-tuning.
Would strongly disagree, this changes when you are torque sensing and are dealing with correct proportional response.
Specifically tuning an output response that matches both the bike and riding style, I was able to blaze through peak Chinese traffic weaving with only a rear roller brake and remained in full control knowing my pedaling was being correctly measured.
I believe 800W 36V 15-20A with a BF350W to be opus (with the right frame) coincidentally this is the setup BH use (or did until the Dapu swtich)
What makes an amazing bike is how it fuzes the powered experience with the riders input, it has to be mindless creating seamless synergy.
The BF does none of these.
We would also recommend selling two 6/Ah 36v batteries rather than one 12/Ah... yes it does involve an extra BMS, but it means that on short runs, less bulk and weight
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-i5L3QuSupKM/UZvi ... _ebike.jpg
digital relay switch that autonomously switches between battery "A" to battery "B" when your primary battery runs out of power
8)




*it's unfair to lump all 400million into one category, but seriously the pre o
^pun-intended
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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by DIY_turbo » Jul 17 2013 3:46pm

Has anyone heard of the Sunstar S03?

This is a japanese middle crank

It seems like the Bafang Middle Crank BBS01 got its inspiraton from this motor.

http://www.sunstaribike.com/en/products ... g-bicycle/


It has had good reviews

http://www.bikeradar.com/commuting/gear ... -kit-46004

The user manual can be found here

http://www.sunstaribike.com/en/?wpdmact ... 90bGluaw==

Sales are done through its distribution network.

http://www.sunstaribike.com/en/contact-us/dealers/

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 17 2013 4:48pm

The Sunstar SO3 is very similar to the Bafang BBSO1 mid-drive, and it came before the Bafang. The Sunstar SO3 has it's own thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=46972

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by iperov » Jul 17 2013 11:55pm

Sorry, bad english!

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by greenspark » Jul 20 2013 2:25am

Just installed the Bafang BBS01 250W Euro-spec (but with Thumb Throttle) on a 1951 Raleigh DL1. The donor bike was in sad shape, but structurally sound. Going through the shed to find spare parts, I installed 700C aluminium wheels (the Westwood 28" rims were cracked and distorted) with a Sturmey Archer S3X 3-speed, used BMX caliper brakes, aluminium Northroad handlebars to replace the bent stock item, and a fellow learning to make frames offered to braze the fender and guard cracks at no charge just for the practice - nice. Removing the old BB was a mission, based on advice from the Sheldon Brown web site, I ground a steel plate to match the BB groove and welded the plate to a bolt to make a compression type remover. Inside the BB shell was a neglected mess - looked like it was last greased during the Eisenhower years.

But unlike the two other bikes that we installed the BBS01, the diameter of the BB shell had no obstructions, BBS motor shaft slipped right in. Of course Raleigh BB shells are 5 mm wider on both sides, but a reciprocating saw made short work of the BB, noting that this committed the DL1 to a permanent 68mm future. The rest of the installation was straightforward and simple. The Raleigh had a 48 tooth chainring, the BBS came with a 46 tooth, so a minor adjustment of the axle on the dropouts produced the right tension. Strapped on a 39V A123 battery from Cellman and headed out for a test ride.

The DL1 is a roadster, meaning the front fork sticks further out to produce a very comfortable ride. They are work bikes and the ones from the 50's are solid. The crank motor is driven both by the pedelec and by the thumb throttle, and like the unit previously installed on the Bella Ciao, pressing the thumb throttle in the power setting (3) seems to give more power and higher speed that the pedelec. Power up the test hill (long and about 15 degrees) was strong and quiet and reduced the pedalling effort to the same as on level ground. No surprises and with the motor low, a good centre of gravity. The DL1 is an excellent candidate for a crank drive conversion, and I expect it will be a keeper.

Photos will be posted once I've painted the frame with Hammerite hammered black paint. I did a test fender and it turned out surprisingly good.

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by Grey beard » Jul 29 2013 4:16pm

One of the mistakes business people can make is looking at the world from only their own perspective, and that of their friends. Demographics should be looked at. Trying to build a market out of the Lycra clad would be a mistake as those people are the ones who get electrics banned from bike trails and paths. By trying to produce a low powered assist for them, you are forgetting the largest, most powerful, most affluent group. Baby Boomers!
66,000,000 Boomers in the States alone. Equally large demographics in other countries as well. Retiring @ 600,000 per month. We LOVE our toys. I have 5 ICE powered bicycles, 2 muscle cars, and a street rod. When I build an electric bike, it has to produce more than 25-30kph.
You are asking yourself, why boomers, and why do they need more power. In the 50-60s, we all rode bikes. Balloon tires and single speeds. Every where we went, it was on bikes. No group of kids went anywhere without impromptu races. We made one hill a "have to" part of our daily ride. A half mile long, and very steep, we'd work our butts off to get to the top so we could race back down. Pedal hard until the bike was going faster than we could assist, flying down in full tuck. Shirts flapping, pants flapping, some with ears flapping, fenders flapping and handlebars shaking, but nobody was sitting up with their coaster brakes smoking. We want the power to relive the memories. There is never too much. We went from bicycles, to motorized bikes like the Whizzers, Symplex, Cushman, and Travis. Then to small motorcycles, then to bigger and faster ones. A few forward thinkers created muscle cars for us, and every year it was more, and faster.
To think that this group will be satisfied with a few hundred watts of power, and will be excited to pedal bikes with their bad knees, hips, and backs, is a huge mistake. "Overbuilt and detuned" would be a good start.

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by greenspark » Jul 30 2013 5:10am

Grey beard wrote:One of the mistakes business people can make is looking at the world from only their own perspective, and that of their friends.
66,000,000 Boomers in the States alone. Equally large demographics in other countries as well. Retiring @ 600,000 per month.
I'm a boomer, rode a beautiful green Raleigh Sport 3-speed as a kid, and have gotten back into bike riding after spending time in Italy in 2010 where the villages were too small to drive the rental car. We would ride over to the next village for morning coffee along tractor roads not used by cars, that took us through lovely fields with ancient farmers still stacking rocks by hand (how there can be any rocks left after thousands of years of farming is a mystery to me).

On the flat, I actually like bicycling (meaning pedalling to move me forward), not accessory speed where all I do is move my thumb. But on hills, my age creeps up. Surely it was not that painful when I was a kid. When I discovered electric motors, I first went with the 500W Mac, 52v, 30 amp, 9 fet, and soon realised my mortality (something I never thought of when I was a youth). The bike was going to kill me. I've owned big motorcycles and appreciate the value of brakes, suspension and DOT rated tyres selected and engineered to match the power. So my next motor went to the extreme the other way: a Cute 100F with 36v, too weak. Then, through our charitable trust, we began to test motors to find the sweet spot. For us, it was to flatten the hill, nothing more. Make it so going up the hill required the same pedalling as on the level. It took a while to work it out. Cute and MXUS too weak, Mac too strong. Bafang CST getting closer but still too strong. Bafang BBS01 - sweet spot (and better balanced). We found detuning the grunty motors was not satisfactory. Just did not feel right and it runs the risk of being in a grey area with the law.

In your first sentence you make an excellent observation, but then in your second paragraph you commit the very error that you postulate. You and your peers went for speed. But not all of those 66 million boomers did so. Some, like me, did a bell curve.

In my 40's I was racing Alfa Romeos on the track at very high speeds; driving Mercedes and BMW performance cars at three digit (MPH) speeds on open highways; flying the biggest motor Piper ever hung on a 4-seater plane. But a decade or two later, the Alfa sits on stands in the garage, the German cars, the plane and motorcycles are sold, and frankly, I'm just not interested in speed anymore. My last European holiday was my very first without a rental car, and the first where I did not travel at 135kph (or more). We bought two Bella Ciao classic bikes in Berlin (http://www.bellaciao.de/en/) and with two cousins of a similar age, my wife and I rode them back to the airport in Prague, following the Elbe River route and staying in lovely hotels along the way. It ranks as one of our finest holidays, and rekindled my interest in bicycles. I'm also back to wearing the clothes I bought 30 years ago (yeah, never tossed them out) and feeling a lot healthier. At a recent reunion I was one of the folks everyone recognised. Except for the change in hair colour, I looked the same... thanks to bicycling. We now are down to one car because we find that we ride to the village to shop and dine. Given the 15 degree, long upward hill just outside our house, it is the motor that is the game changer. With it, we bike. For the first 14 years we lived here, we drove while our expensive bicycles sat in the garage slowly rusting.

With 66 million boomers, some will be like you, some like us, some who will dust off that 1960's bike still in their parents garage and ride as is, while others will pay silly money on eBay to buy a restored bike similar to that of their youth. Most of course will do nothing of the sort, as they face aging differently, but with such a large demographic one only needs a very small fraction to make a good market.

Overbuilt and detuned is a nice catchphrase, but at this time, the market is in its infancy, it is changing rapidly and it is divided between East (cheap, makes millions of units) and West (expensive, companies make hundreds or perhaps thousands of units) with manufacturers trying to work out the best markets. From what I can see, in responding to the European Market, Bafang of Suzhou China is getting it right more than any other Chinese company.

In my day job, we analysed a company that makes fractional horsepower motors suitable for HVAC, refrigerators and other home/commercial appliances. They make them by the hundreds of thousands and the cost of each motor is $15. They are very high-tech, use far less copper, no steel jacket and are controlled by a very smart circuit board. In looking at ebike motors, I see less technology in them than in these fractional horsepower motors with their electronic controls. So why do they cost so much when made in the West? Because of volume. As volume goes up and prices go down, we may see ebikes creating a new form of transport. Not the zoom-zoom kid, or the MTB rider who emulates a trail motorcycle, but ordinary people who find the ebike extends their range and lets them enjoy out-of-door riding. As more bike lanes go in, demand will rise. In Holland, I read 20% of new bike sales are ebikes... and that's flatland. The big market will be hilly land. It will take a few decades for road engineers to accommodate the rising interest, and in some regard it will be a push-pull form of planning, but it is proven both in Europe and in parts of Asia. If the US catches on to long-distance bike tourism, with smooth paved roads reserved for bikes, and the hotels providing charging stations and lock-ups, there will be a whole new, profitable industry that emerges. It will take time, but it is happening, and it has nothing to do with overbuilt and detuned. It's about extending cycling range and flattening the hills.

Finally, do not underestimate the law or its potential to change. In the USA some states allow 750W motors to be treated as bicycles. In Europe the laws are much tighter. In New Zealand, the law is 300W, but no speed restriction, and it is clear the law is loose because use is not widespread. As more people get ebikes or convert ordinary bicycles with kits, accidents will happen. Safety experts will do the analysis, and speed demons like you will probably see a backlash. Yes, you will be allowed to have the power, but you will be classified as riding a moped... with lots of regulations governing what is allowed or not. You will pay licensing fees, perhaps be required to carry insurance, and the police will take notice. If we are lucky the law will not apply this to all ebikes, but that is a risk. At present, as long as my motor is legal, the only worry from the police is running red lights or (here) not wearing a helmet.

Bottom line: There will be markets for all sorts of buyers, just as there are markets for Toyota econo-boxes and Chevy Corvettes (and Tesla Roadsters). For us, as early adopters, the job is to report on forums about our experience so that next round adopters can benefit from our views and our real-life experiences.

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by speedmd » Jul 30 2013 8:11am

Hi Greenspark
They are very high-tech, use far less copper, no steel jacket
Perfect! Would they make a 10kw light weight inrunner. :wink:

cheers

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by skyungjae » Jul 30 2013 10:28am

greenspark wrote:For us, it was to flatten the hill, nothing more. Make it so going up the hill required the same pedalling as on the level. It took a while to work it out.
I'm right here with you. Regardless if it's trail riding or pavement, I feel that bicycle tech, in general, always moves in a direction to make things "easier" for the rider be it a lighter frame, gearing, etc.

In the US, the line between a moped requiring registration and an e-bike is very blurry, not so much in law, but to the community of bikers. On mountain biking forums, many people comment, "just get a 250cc dirt bike;" "motor + bicycle = motorcycle;" etc. There's really a lack of understanding that an e-bike is not a Zero DS equivalent the same way a golf cart is not a Tesla roadster.

Anyhow, I don't think it's a bad thing to over-engineer a product because they should last and be durable for prolonged use. When it comes to power, the "overbuilt and detuned" can be very misleading. I think it makes more sense to say that it's overbuilt and specifically tuned for a particular purpose or to comply with any laws. I say this because all our e-bike motors can be tuned to exceed their advertised power rating. Sure, they weren't designed to and may not last long, but they can still do it. Likewise, all of our e-bike motors can be "detuned" so to speak in many different ways to limit output and overall speed.

This Bafang crank drive really does interest me, but I'm already making the assumption that it's too weak for my intended purposes. When I say weak, I'm not talking about output power but the general durability of the parts. I don't feel the Bafang BB spindle would be able to take the terrain I ride as well as the jumps I take. With my GNG mid-drive (BB upgraded to ISIS to handle my terrain and jumps), I'm pedaling 99% of the time, and the throttle is just another thing I have to deal with. It would be nice to have a more simple pedalec system where I didn't have to worry about a throttle.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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greenspark   100 W

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by greenspark » Jul 30 2013 2:39pm

skyungjae wrote:This Bafang crank drive really does interest me, but I'm already making the assumption that it's too weak for my intended purposes. When I say weak, I'm not talking about output power but the general durability of the parts. I don't feel the Bafang BB spindle would be able to take the terrain I ride as well as the jumps I take. With my GNG mid-drive (BB upgraded to ISIS to handle my terrain and jumps), I'm pedaling 99% of the time, and the throttle is just another thing I have to deal with. It would be nice to have a more simple pedalec system where I didn't have to worry about a throttle.
The best way to find out is to buy one and try it out. We need to convince Paul to take it on as a product, since he is the only one who pays attention to the shipping costs (using sea freight and not making his profit there like the low-price Chinese on-line vendors) and he is local to Bafang (about an hour away). Also, I've had no problem with his batteries, whereas the BMS battery I bought required a 2nd BMS after the first one shorted out... and the second was not a plug-in replacement, I had to solder some cable extensions... and they required that I pay their expensive shipping (more than the BMS).

Let's see how many forum members would say they would buy one... 250W or 350W. If enough members of this forum say yes, that might persuade Paul to take them on... how much would you be willing to pay for a 350W kit (motor, cranks, pedalec, thumb throttle, digital display, ebrake handles) including surface freight?

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by skyungjae » Jul 30 2013 3:39pm

I don't want to roll the dice on something that could potentially break on my first trail ride. Now if someone is willing to buy one for me, that's a whole other story. :wink:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by speedmd » Jul 30 2013 3:46pm

Hi Greenspark

I am a older rider, and do like the concept of a pedal driven throttle, only with much more power for my off road build. 5 or maybe even 10 times what I put into the pedals would be what I was looking for on my downhill/ free ride bike. Quantum leaps of power. So if I decided to put in max power, the sky would be the limit for a 15 - 20 second blast. Something like 1500 -2kw continuous without burning up. Picture it. It would be supernatural. A whole new class.

"Build it, and they will come".

cheers

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by Arbol » Aug 10 2013 10:55am

Does anybody know if the 250W and 350W motors are the same physically, just with different controller settings, or if the 350W is different (I imagine bigger) than the 250W one?

I ask this due to comments in page 4 of:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 7&start=75

nippynoo   10 mW

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Re: New Bafang Crank-drives

Post by nippynoo » Aug 11 2013 3:42pm

spinningmagnets wrote:Does anyone know of any published pics of the internals? I am most curious as to whether it's an inrunner or an outrunner, and if the reduction gears are verified to be helical?
Answer = Inrunner
Video showing internal of BBS01 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b68fOrwcOcc
Last edited by nippynoo on Aug 12 2013 2:03am, edited 1 time in total.

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