KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by Merlin » Nov 06 2014 3:36am

i contacted only once over the website.
but i heard that they have good support.

iam sure Crossbreak has more infos about kelly + Support

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/member ... le&u=21540

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by madin88 » Nov 06 2014 2:02pm

2sec start up delay normally should be OK for the CA (that is what i know about KBSX contorller).
you have double checked all Hall and Phase wires?
If there is nothing wrong with the wiring, and it was working well at the beginning, i guess something got damaged during the conversion.
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Nov 10 2014 4:38am

i can report some good news :)
and this is REALLY REALLY strange. i contacted FANY from kelly controller. a very responsive, technical capable and nice person - thanks a lot btw!
i got the info that the controller which identifies itself as KBS48101SY is a JOYSTICK version which seems to have a zero throttle position at 2.4v. this firmware can be flashed for special purposes. but it's not what i need. so i asked for a "regular" firmware version which was provided from kelly. reflashed the controller and now it's working nice again.
what puzzles me: i did NOT alter the firmware anytime in past, and the controller WAS working fine before. maybe something was corrupted in the firmware and this was reset now that i did a complete reprogramming of the controller?!
whatever it was - i'm happy that it's working again. :)


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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Nov 10 2014 5:31am

Merlin wrote:Service seems to be still very good ;)
yes. especially as there is no warranty anymore and they don't get any money from me (at least at the moment).

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by rodgah » Nov 10 2014 5:34am

Fanny saved the day!

Good to hear
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KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Nov 11 2014 3:53pm

after flashing the controller with a new firmware and reprogramming all flash the controller is working again.
rodgah wrote:Fanny saved the day!
Good to hear
well. some kind of at least. i've run into a new problem - the setup program says it won't program this firmware and i need a special program, but kelly can't reproduce it. very strange thing.
the controller makes the wheel spin again but w/o customization it's worthless as i don't know current limits, throttle dead zones etc.
i hope kelly will find a solution. they are very responsive but time zones make communication quite laggy.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Nov 12 2014 8:44am

kelly sent me a "new" firmware file today. same size, same name, but still different - and everything's working again. i can connect with kelly kbs-l setup program. :)
EDIT: i tested the controller at the bike and it's working correctly now. i can re-program settings, and it runs fine. i'm very happy now :)

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by fechter » Nov 13 2014 7:58pm

The relay thing should handle the key line power no problem.

Normally when the controller faults, it will blink the LED with a code telling you what triggered it.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Nov 14 2014 2:01am

fechter wrote:The relay thing should handle the key line power no problem.
Normally when the controller faults, it will blink the LED with a code telling you what triggered it.
yes. it shows me "throttle issue". that's because the CA is still booting and the controller already expects to see a voltage on the throttle wire.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Nov 14 2014 10:54am

i just installed the kelly controller and am back from a short test drive. 9°C and only a t-shirt. f***ing cold. but still a big e-grin :)
the bike runs nice. throttle control is very good, with a nice up ramp from the very beginning and some punch near WOT. the controller easily outputs the 2.3kw w/o getting warm. i guess the 10mm thick heatspreader bars between the fets and the controller work good and can puffer heat spikes.
i will wait for the power-on relay and install it so i can close all side covers, but then i will have to close the season i guess. take out the batteries, storage charge them and put them on a shelf in the cellar.
next (and i hope last step) will be a little cover to hide the wires and connectors coming down from the CA. having those covered should keep them dry as well if i ever will be surprised by some monsoon like rain again. this will be done in the winter.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Dec 27 2014 11:55am

today i started converting another mac motor. and this time i hope to do it all perfectly right for the first time.
my biggest concern was the perfect alignment of the heat bridge at the center of the side cover (resulting in grinding/clonking noise). even the slightest offset will result in noise and uneven run. so i redesigned the heat bridge. it will include another 6903 bearing (30mm outer diameter) making it a 3 bearings motor. the bearing at the right side of the drawing below will guarantee the perfect alignment as the heatbridge (and with it the whole motor) can be misaligned. i hope this makes sense. it's a bit difficult to explain.
IMG_0376.JPG
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by scorpionice » Dec 27 2014 12:42pm

intresting...goodluck...cheers

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Dec 27 2014 6:24pm

so this additional 17x30x7 bearing is insert between the stator carrier with 30mm inner dia on the 17mm shaft? Sounds like the needly bearing approach i once suggeested for the bfang BPM...but decided it has to work without (can't find the post in the other thread ATM).

Indeed this way you will kill all misalignment. Quite a bit of effort but it it will run completely true i'm sure. Anyway, you may want to be sure this bearing barely "sees" any force. Since it only takes the forces of misalgnment. So still, you may want to keep it centered as good as possible. The remaining "misalignment" is induced by the load of the chain, nothing that can be killed by perfect centering.., so this indeed makes sense in my eyes.

For the bafang i just recognized there can be enough clearance between stator carrier and shaft so an "offset" induced by a bending shaft is no issue... but as we now the bafang heat bridge is desgned a bit different from the MAC, so this may be not the case for you (i am not sure since i dont know the MAC very well). I'll get hands on another MAC soon so can (finally) have a closer look into it myself.

Keen to see how it goes... good luck!

Still you have to change the shaft since we know it will break under heavy load...just like the bafang shaft which is just to thin for the torsion load/Torque the motor can do

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Dec 27 2014 6:36pm

just read the rest of the news.. nice to hear from another lucky kelly user... last week i found out it really runs sine-wave, had it on an osci with the BIG-BLOCK alternative motor and some-load-test. will post the pics osci screenshot pics soon... sadly i burned some labratory equipment since i connected the Star-Point with logic-ground for simplicity during testing :oops: Yeah, when the smoke comes out...luckily these Kellys are quite forgiving...still beg for the day they implement FOC

ABout the bearing again: just noicted: You can just drill the mounting-holes for the heatbridge to the housing a bit larger than actually necessary....with your addtional bearing in it, it will self-center once you tighten these bolts. sounds like worth the effort. still keen... :mrgreen:

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Dec 28 2014 4:24am

crossbreak wrote:Still you have to change the shaft since we know it will break under heavy load...just like the bafang shaft which is
just to thin for the torsion load/Torque the motor can do
you mean my upgraded shaft will have to be changed? or the original one. the original one broke, but the new one is made of very hard tool steel and it's not hollow.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Dec 28 2014 7:25am

yep.. you need another special 14mm DD adapter from me then, too. Why not built your own adapter? For a redesigned shaft? Just with the 15mm inner dia, a Key and a 5mm bolt in the center? Takes you minutes on your professional lathe ;)

No need for tool steel.. free cutting steel can be cut a lot quicker...i like it

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new heat bridge

Post by izeman » Dec 30 2014 6:47am

we spent 2h at the lathe and i'm quite happy with the result. what i'm NOT so happy with is chinese production. i thought i could make a heat bridge to fit all of my three MAC motors i have lying around for now. being 2x 10T und 1x 8T winding. but this doesn't work as the dimensions differ a bit. so if i make the adapter a press fit for on stator is won't fit in the second one and will have some space to move on the third one. it's just 0.2mm diameter difference, but it's enough to be piss**.

other than that the heat bridge turned out nicely, and the holes match exactly. different from the older approach where the heat bridge was screwed down from the backside of the stator (the rotor bowl needs to be removed to access the screws) here all three parts (cover, heat bridge and stator) will be screwed together with 6 screws from the outside.

with the additional bearing i hope to have a perfect alignement, but i can't test it as i found out that the axle is a few hundreds of a mm to big to install the new bearing. so i have to go back to the lathe and test it. i also ordered some spare bearings so i don't need to use the old ones.

here are some pics:
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Dec 31 2014 9:55am

i started rewiring the motor, removing the tiny phase wires and adding silicone wire 22awg hall wires and a temp sensor.
the phase wires have the insulation removed for the first few centimeters so they fit better next to the heat bridge.
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 02 2015 1:57pm

today's test run was VERY depressing. i don't know what's going on inside of these motors. everything new. new case, new side covers, new stator, new rotor, new axle/shaft, and still it's WAY too noisy. it's just not running smooth. now the shaft must be 100% aligned and centered, and still as soon as i insert the freewheel with the 3 planet gears it start to run uneven.
i will have to investigate further. i must find the reason.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 03 2015 12:46pm

i have three complete motors on my bench. well in parts of course, as i want to find what is causing the noise. so i start to change parts to see where it comes from. i can now say for sure, that it's NOT the case, and NOT the covers. i can swap them at will and everything stays the same.
i have motors with 3 different windings, and 5 freewheels/clutches and 3 different axles: the original one, my self made one, and the one spinningmagnets made. changing the axle doesn't change a thing. but changing the yellowish rotor and chaning the clutch does.
watch the 2 videos.




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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 03 2015 12:49pm

now that the motor runs silent (more or less) i have the "problem" that i had to use the old clutch, which i think is weaker than the new one. :(
and i used a slow wound motor. which is now too slow for my likings. no load speed with the biggest gear in front (23t) is no 52km/h.
so i will take the faster motor to reach my wanted no load speed of around 70km/h.

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Re: kona entourage mid drive

Post by mwkeefer » Jan 03 2015 2:23pm

izeman wrote:the motor conversion is now done. though i'm not 100% satified. the is some vibration when the axle turns. and e-motors normally run w/o any vibration at all. so there most be some bearings not sitting perfectly or something rubbing inside. will be hard to find out.

here is a short video of the motor running, drawing 3a @45v so around 130w loss at wot. i installed a little magnet to get a speed signal and you see 45km/h max. due to the reduction of 6:1 instead of 5:1 this seems fine. no load speed was 55km/h before.


What is that squeaking noise from the motor?

-Mike
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by mwkeefer » Jan 03 2015 2:25pm

Nevermind.... I see now :)
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 03 2015 3:10pm

mwkeefer wrote:Nevermind.... I see now :)
hehe. i wish i REALLY knew what it is. it definately comes from the freewheel. but i can't say if it's the planet gears or the sun gear causing the noise.

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