Hey There

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Harold25   1 W

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Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Dec 17 2013 1:07am

Hi guys and gals, I'm new here and I'm really interested in using a kit to make an electronic bike. I'm most interested in the mid-drive kits. Anyway, I searched and there doesn't seem to be a specific bike that seems to be the best or easiest to use for modifying. The kit i'm looking at is this one: "NEW 6 KW MOTORISED KIT Max voltage 60V 100A continue big motor without gear box 48~60V 6000W" by cyclone-tw. http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-3chain.htm

Any opinions and/or advice are great, especially on what can or cannot be used with this kit.

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kentlim26   10 kW

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Re: Hey There

Post by kentlim26 » Dec 17 2013 2:52am

You might be the first person in ES to own this newest cyclone kit if you bought. So everyone can guess it must be very powerful. For myself using a lower tier 500w i consider it is powerful too especially the pick up from speed zero km/ hr and reach 45kmh in few seconds. Well it cover well my requirement, speed and range. Once you have bought it please show us. Thank you
Conhis hub motor run on April 2010, 48v 1000watts hub motor distance run 5800km, and Re~alive cyclone kit bought in year 2009, Bought a greentime controller 18fets- 4110 , 48v~ 90v , 3-speed mode. Latest top speed I got for my greentime controller 76.8km/h ! , yet to reach 80km/h, or I will never reached 80km/h ?

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Hey There

Post by dogman dan » Dec 17 2013 6:04am

Is it safe to say that 6000w could rip apart most bike chains?

Is it safe to say that you won't often find conditions where that much torque develops for long?

I can only ask the questions, since I'm a dope when it comes to non hub stuff. But it sounds like some chain wear, and even broken freewheels could happen with 6000w.

Which bike? I don't generally recommend attaching seven or eight horsepower to any cheap weak bike. It's enough power to not want a coaster brake, for one.

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Dec 17 2013 6:28am

dogman wrote:Is it safe to say that 6000w could rip apart most bike chains?

Is it safe to say that you won't often find conditions where that much torque develops for long?

I can only ask the questions, since I'm a dope when it comes to non hub stuff. But it sounds like some chain wear, and even broken freewheels could happen with 6000w.

Which bike? I don't generally recommend attaching seven or eight horsepower to any cheap weak bike. It's enough power to not want a coaster brake, for one.
I don't know which bike, now that you mention it, perhaps this is more power than I need....

Thanks for the input, I'll be doing some more research

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Dec 17 2013 8:23am

I'm think I'll be using a Scott sub 10 2009 model: http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/Bike ... del=Sub+10.

So it'll be a 3 pcs mid drive kit... I'm thinking more like 2400w or 3000w now.

Anyone see any forthcoming issues?

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gwhy!   1 MW

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Re: Hey There

Post by gwhy! » Dec 17 2013 6:58pm

a way of considering how much power you need is to think of a unrestricted 50cc geared motorcycle or automatic scooter these produce around 3-4kw and can do around 45-55mph but you need to consider that a motorcycle/scooter will weigh around 80kg+ and a e-bicycle will only weigh around 30kg so you would need a lot less power on the e-bike for the same sort of performance, upto around 30mph would be around 1kw for every day road use, the higher the top end speed that you want to go this is were you start to need a more powerful motor power.

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: Hey There

Post by skyungjae » Dec 18 2013 3:41pm

What country are you in? If you plan on riding out in the street with your build, you may want to consider the laws that differentiate between a motorized bike and a motorcycle.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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calab   10 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by calab » Dec 18 2013 11:58pm

6kw on a bicycle, now thats as funny as doing 60mph on a bicycle.
Hope you have plenty of health-care coverage.

nechaus   1 MW

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Re: Hey There

Post by nechaus » Dec 26 2013 5:23am

Just Do it!!!!!!!

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Dec 27 2013 8:33pm

I've been looking at the brackets used for the cyclone motors kits and they don't like a very good design.

After doing some research, the GNG bracket or combined with the lightning rods stuff looks much better. It's too bad there is no mounting solution for the davinci drive system matt schumaker makes.

In addition to this, I would have to change my 9 speed cassette to a 7 speed cassette along with the gear shifter and a heavier chain to use with this stuff and stronger chain rings to handle the power. This is stuff I have to do for any bottom bracket mounted motor anyway, but I think the 6kw stuff would be too powerful anyway.

I really like the idea of the high rpm rc motors, but there is no bolt on solution that's under 2000$.

All the key pieces of a good kit seem to be owned by different company's.

Lightning Rods products have the nice BB brackets

Schumaker has the nice reduction drive and rc motors.

Cyclone motors has the heavy duty BB bracket.

If one could just piece these 3 main components together with the chain wheels and chains then a an easy bare bones kit could be had for a good price.

In addition there are cheaper RC motors with similar sizes and outputs compared to the ones on schumakers site to cut cost a bit. With these pieces working together everyone could have a powerful quality mid-drive that utilizes the gears.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: Hey There

Post by crossbreak » Dec 29 2013 1:40pm

the 9speed chains aren't really less strong than 7speed. Still, what you should do is change your standard 11-32T cassette for a 12T-36T... however you should ONLY use sprockets with 14t+, just dont use the smaller ones. Many do so, the cassette holds up fine this way, does several KW. You wont be able to really add power when driving faster than ~25mph with such a setup. You could as well get rid of pedals and the other useless stuff, like christerl did. Makes things much easier and saves a lot of weight.

Have a look here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=48963

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 02 2014 6:25pm

I've decided to go with the AFT bike kit from AUS. It looks the best built and reasonably priced.

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 02 2014 7:13pm

So the 11/32 tooth cassettes aren't strong enough to deal with the 1600w motor? So I should upgrade the cassette to 12-36t, maybe upgrade the chain(to what?) and don't use the highest gear?

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 03 2014 8:32pm

What do you guys think about using a 12-25 tooth 9 speed cassette for this application?

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: Hey There

Post by crossbreak » Jan 04 2014 6:30pm

as said, forget about sprockets smaller than 14T. You can use the 12-36 HG61 cassette, which is the best on the market. just lock the 12T by adjusting the "high" adjuster screw on your derailleur. this way you wont shift into the 9th gear (12T sprocket) by accident.

be aware that you need special derailleur to shift into gear with more than 34T. If you have a 11-32T cassette laying around you should just try it with this one.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: Hey There

Post by crossbreak » Jan 04 2014 6:35pm

with 6kW I would start to think about a single speed built. Saves one reduction stage, makes things a lot easier.

The most you will ask for with 6kW is 2-speeds, you wont ever use 9 speeds with so much power. Acceleration is just too fast, you have no time to shift through all 9 speeds... At least if you wont go faster than 60kph.

What you should ask yourself is what you wanna do?? Go offroad? Travel long distances? Do you want a jump bike? What is the total weight and range you are aiming for?? This will tell a lot more about the choice of components, there is no general solution.

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 06 2014 4:45pm

Would it be easier to just use an 8 speed cassette? What derailleur do I need for the 12-36 cassette anyway? This is the most economical solution?

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 06 2014 4:53pm

What about the 12/25 9 speed cassette

calab   10 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by calab » Jan 06 2014 8:48pm

8/9 cassettes are the same width, rear derailluers are dumb just match the shifters to the cassette.
Be aware SRAM shifters have different ratio's, so SRAM have to match. Shifters/Derailleurs.
SRAM chains dont matter. KMC is good. Match the chain speed, b/c they are different widths.
9 speed cassette needs a smaller chain then a 8 speed, b/c theres another gear in the same width.

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 07 2014 5:43pm

My shifters are Shimano Deore RapidFire. So I just need a Shimano deore cassette. Any thoughts on using a 12/25 9 speed cassette? there is one at the local bike shop. They don't have an 12/36 cassettes. Would it be easier to just swap out the smallest 2 cogs?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Hey There

Post by Chalo » Jan 07 2014 8:17pm

Harold25 wrote:My shifters are Shimano Deore RapidFire. So I just need a Shimano deore cassette. Any thoughts on using a 12/25 9 speed cassette? there is one at the local bike shop. They don't have an 12/36 cassettes. Would it be easier to just swap out the smallest 2 cogs?
Any Shimano cassette will work, as long as the sprocket count matches the shifter. Also any reasonably priced SRAM cassette.

It will cost you about the same to get a 7-speed cassette and 7-speed right side shifter as it will to get just a 9-speed cassette, and 7-speed equipment will last longer and shift better. The sprockets are thicker, the chain bushings are wider, and wider sprocket spacing does not demand as much precision in its adjustment. 6-speed would be even better, but 6-speed trigger shifters are not available as far as I know (though 6-speed twist grip shifters are).

At my shop, 7-speed cassettes start at $15, 7-speed chains at $12, and 7-speed trigger shifters at $20. 9-speed cassettes start at $36 and 9-speed chains at $23. When you factor in the faster wear of 9-speed parts, you could easily be spending 3 to 4 times more in parts to keep a 9-speed drivetrain in business. And you will require more frequent shifting adjustment, whether you do it yourself or pay a professional for the service.

Either Shimano's CS738 cassette (13-34t) or CS739 (14-32t) would be a fine choice for the job. They have proportional gear intervals and high quality materials.

If you want to use a 7-speed cassette on an 8/9-speed wheel, you have to put a 4mm wide spacer behind the cassette to take up the extra space. Bike shops have them.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: Hey There

Post by skyungjae » Jan 08 2014 12:40am

Chalo wrote:
Harold25 wrote:My shifters are Shimano Deore RapidFire. So I just need a Shimano deore cassette. Any thoughts on using a 12/25 9 speed cassette? there is one at the local bike shop. They don't have an 12/36 cassettes. Would it be easier to just swap out the smallest 2 cogs?
Any Shimano cassette will work, as long as the sprocket count matches the shifter. Also any reasonably priced SRAM cassette.

It will cost you about the same to get a 7-speed cassette and 7-speed right side shifter as it will to get just a 9-speed cassette, and 7-speed equipment will last longer and shift better. The sprockets are thicker, the chain bushings are wider, and wider sprocket spacing does not demand as much precision in its adjustment. 6-speed would be even better, but 6-speed trigger shifters are not available as far as I know (though 6-speed twist grip shifters are).

At my shop, 7-speed cassettes start at $15, 7-speed chains at $12, and 7-speed trigger shifters at $20. 9-speed cassettes start at $36 and 9-speed chains at $23. When you factor in the faster wear of 9-speed parts, you could easily be spending 3 to 4 times more in parts to keep a 9-speed drivetrain in business. And you will require more frequent shifting adjustment, whether you do it yourself or pay a professional for the service.

Either Shimano's CS738 cassette (13-34t) or CS739 (14-32t) would be a fine choice for the job. They have proportional gear intervals and high quality materials.

If you want to use a 7-speed cassette on an 8/9-speed wheel, you have to put a 4mm wide spacer behind the cassette to take up the extra space. Bike shops have them.
Interesting. I don't really ever use all the gears on my 9 speed cassette. Actually, I only use 6 gears in the rear. Maybe I should upgrade to a 7 speed drivetrain for a more beefy set up.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2005 Jamis Dakar build thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p972546
2005 Kona Stink-E build thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 64#p690597

Harold25   1 W

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Re: Hey There

Post by Harold25 » Jan 12 2014 5:29am

Okay, so I'm thinking of going with a 7 speed setup, I already ordered from AFT and i should be getting my stuff in 3 weeks. If I go from a 9 speed cassette to a 7 speed I'll need a spacer, new rear derailleur, 7 speed cassette, new shifter and new chain. Correct me If i'm wrong but I won't need a new front derailleur.

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LockH   100 GW

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Re: Hey There

Post by LockH » Jan 12 2014 6:37am

Me thinks Harold is a dark horse. Out to win the ES record. Worlds faster electric bicycle rider to kill themselves in the shortest time. Good luck! (Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! But then, I understand many don't see eye-to-eye with Harold... see "Battle of Hastings".)
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

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Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Hey There

Post by Chalo » Jan 13 2014 2:34am

Harold25 wrote:If I go from a 9 speed cassette to a 7 speed I'll need a spacer, new rear derailleur, 7 speed cassette, new shifter and new chain. Correct me If i'm wrong but I won't need a new front derailleur.
The rear derailleur does not know how many speeds it is shifting. The same one will work with 7, 8, and 9-speed. (Or 6, or 10.)
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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